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Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #89 from previous page: September 08, 2012, 03:43:57 PM »
Quote from: persia;707186
What needs to be done is to build a new AmigaOS on top of a Linux or BSD foundation à la OS X.


For the life of me, I still don't understand why Linux 'needs' to be a part  of the core system at all.
 

Offline runequester

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #90 on: September 08, 2012, 03:52:28 PM »
Because if you want mainstream penetration, 800 dollar machines barely cracking 1 ghz, or 10 year old mac's aren't going to cut it.

And that's the biggest barrier to anything except "pretty neat hobby": hardware.

Sure, someone could come along, whip up a range of good, supported hardware with a supported OS and applications but by then, our robot overlords will have harvested all our brains anyways.
 

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #91 on: September 08, 2012, 04:00:16 PM »
Quote from: MiAmigo;707080
5. ...for all the innovations in hardware, software, and general use to continue lucratively, and not fall over dead, like all the other attempted reboots. In some crucial way (which I'll save for another thread!) they've all made the same fatal mistakes, one of being forgetting what the Commodore experience was all about in the first place. (The C64 remains the best-selling computer of all time for a reason. If anyone with money who wants to start it up again can't remember why they will surely fail.)


The Raspberri Pi is taking off where Amiga users won't.  The Raspberri Pi has its own magazine and is being kited by people in England who remember BBC Basic and want to teach their own kids computers.  Now if some company produces a computer for you, you have to compete against the Raspberri Pi crowd.  They already have a head start and you will be hard pressed to pull users away from their machines.

You all want a big company to come along and take care of you.  It hasn't happened.  I regret buying the Amiga.  I felt that Commodore would always be here and take care of us and I couldn't compete against Commodore.  I had the opportunity to buy eprom programmers and build my own 6502 computer back then but I didn't have money for both Amiga and development and now some books and parts are scarce and more expensive.

You seem to forget that Commodore was a hobby interest of a few engineers at Commodore before they bought MOS.  When the users here want to start a hobby initiative and have a product, maybe you can get a company interested in it or you can start your own company.

Why is a company going to invest in the computer you want?  You have no track record of interest.  You don't generate any sales.  Why would a company choose to build for you?  Maybe what non-engineers can build for you is not what you are willing to buy or tinker with.

You have to support an open hardware initiative and show people you are serious.  The reason you aren't going to buy a new computer is because you aren't willing to play with microcontrollers, chips, hardware and other devices today.  If you won't play with them today then how can you consider yourself the programmer of yesterday who used peek and poke?

You need to petition Amiga dot org for a forum for this purpose.  Call it "New Hardware Initiative".
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #92 on: September 08, 2012, 04:45:14 PM »
'Can't', 'won't', and 'don't' are delimiters, which I almost never use when discussing possible future projects, especially theoretical ones. If you start limiting yourself before you even start, what happens is you never start.

Another mistake is letting current market trends dictate innovation. That's not innovation that's emulation. And the market, of course, is fickle.

I get the impression that most people who participate in blogs like these are not your average users. Most of us build our own, program our own, and repair our own, not only these 20+ year old machines, but also our PCs, whatever OS they run.

I would also venture to guess that most of us don't wait for the vendors or computer companies to add new features to our machines - we do it ourselves whenever and where ever possible.

If enough of the right people can do that for their own machines, why would they limit themselves to 'what the mass market will allow' when considering a new project?

Consider: The Commodore family of computers is over 20 years old. Yet dozens of forums just like this one exist, and have existed continuously for all that time, with new members being added to each one everyday. Almost all of them are comprised of PCs users also running Windows and/or Linux. There's your target market right there, if anyone would care to look.

Why talk about 'competing' with Raspberry Pi? I actually have a number of them, and at no time since pre-ordering mine way back in February or March did I even consider that this device would compete with my existing home network to the point where it would supplant them. (By the way, its nothing but a really small PC.) I instead added it to my general interest and hardware pool. I didn't stop spending money on PCs, or stop using them. Why would I? Its 'and', not 'either or'. The 'market' is not one mass, homogeneous entity, it consists of a conglomeration of various types of users who often overlap with their interests and their dollars.

Pretending that Linux is the only way a new machine (or company built around it) can survive is like saying a). That no new OSes will ever exist after Windows and Linux, and we're basically stuck with them forever, and that b). Without Linux any and every new venture is totally lost (so thank God somebody created it, and finally, c). Nobody is smart enough, creative enough, or intuitive enough to create a totally new OS from scratch. I think the original founding fathers of the Amiga and the Commodore 64 would vehemently disagree.

Finally, I feel like I'm beating a dead (fill in your favorite punchline here!). In a previous post, I already pointed out that, to take full advantage of pre-concieved notions of 'market dollars', there could be a blank machine which would feed off of that market (and basically running whatever the customer wanted, be it Windows or Linux or DOS), along with the core Amiga machine, which would run pure Amiga-style hardware and OS software.

If its not against the forum rules, I'll quote one of my own previous posts:

This bi-level scheme I propose (currently used by PCs, of course) would serve many purposes:

1. It would allow the new machine (I'm really trying to avoid calling it 'Amiga') to return to the market place, and, more importantly, to a lucrative niche, since buying a 'blank' one would allow the user to do whatever the heck he/she wanted to do with it.

2. This would generate income for...

3. A full return to the sustained development for the platform into the next level of its severely delayed evolution, resuming the same culture of extreme innovation that created it in the first place.

4. The culture can be niche, while the brand could go mainstream. There could be people who buy this thing who honestly never considering doing anything else on it but run Linux (or even Windows), or play old legacy games. This would keep the brand and the name in the market place, and also eventually make it possible...

5. ...for all the innovations in hardware, software, and general use to continue lucratively, and not fall over dead, like all the other attempted reboots. In some crucial way (which I'll save for another thread!) they've all made the same fatal mistakes, one of being forgetting what the Commodore experience was all about in the first place. (The C64 remains the best-selling computer of all time for a reason. If anyone with money who wants to start it up again can't remember why they will surely fail.)
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 05:31:00 PM by MiAmigo »
 

Offline k4lmp

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #93 on: September 08, 2012, 05:14:59 PM »
While Linux is my operating system of choice, not for my Amiga.  I wonder why someone doesn't just continue where Commodore left off.  Develop AmigaOS to a modern operating system.  If this is AROS or MOS, great, I have to say, I have never used either, so I know nothing about them.  Are they based on the old AmigaOS?  I am not smart enough to do any of this, but I know based on reading posts on this board that there are people on here that are smart enough.  Like I said, I am a Linux man, but, why does everything have to be Linux or Windows, or even Mac?  I love my Amiga, but, I don't want to run Linux on it.  If I did, I don't need it, I already have several modern PC's running that OS.  I like the Amiga because it is unique.  I do like the Commodore OS Vision, but not as an operating system for an Amiga, but, as a Linux theme that has a cool look related to something I love, Commodore.  But, not for my Amiga.  Like I said, I know nothing about AROS or MOS, but, if these ARE OSes that are based on Amiga, I want learn about them.  I am a newbie here, but have come to love everything Amiga, and have always loved my 8 bit Commodore stuff.  There are already people on here that have come up with great looking retro cases, which is basically all CUSA is doing.  I guess maybe there just isn't enough people willing to buy a PC that isn't based on the OSes that have become mainstream.  This is sad.  There are a lot of us, that if given a chance, would buy a new REAL Amiga, if anyone made one.  But when compared to the numbers who buy "mainstream" PCs for surfing, email, and such, I just don't think anyone will because of money.  It is going to have to be done, by people like the ones on this forum, in the way Linux was developed.  It would be a great thing.
 

Offline runequester

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #94 on: September 08, 2012, 05:45:08 PM »
What you'd need is:
 
A hardware platform (this means chips, processors, video, audio, all the junk that goes into it)
(made by who ? What chips? What manufacturers?)
 
An operating system to run it on.
(by who? What kernel? What will set it apart?)
 
A software/application framework around it.
(from who? Which companies will invest?)
 
Interoperability with various established standards to permit the machine to actually be usable in todays world.
 

Offline dammy

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #95 on: September 08, 2012, 06:06:36 PM »
Quote from: k4lmp;707205
.  There are a lot of us, that if given a chance, would buy a new REAL Amiga, if anyone made one.  But when compared to the numbers who buy "mainstream" PCs for surfing, email, and such, I just don't think anyone will because of money.  


Problem is everyone has their own definition on what an "Amiga" is.   If it's exotic closed source chip designs that beats the current  market leaders, it's not going to see the light of day, too much has changed in nearly 30 years of hardware evolution.  What is the past with 68K systems belong in the past, we need to look to the future with what reasonable technology that has a reasonable price tag. As far as the OS is concern, we need a basically new one that still has the flavor of our beloved Amiga used but fully capable to survive and thrive in the modern market place.
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Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #96 on: September 08, 2012, 06:23:38 PM »
Right now the market is stagnant - every new release is just a re-invention of a very old wheel.

We're stuck with 2 video card manufacturers, 2 processor makers (there's some overlap there with ATI/AMD), and two, maybe three OSes, if you count Apple stuff.

This must change. This will change. May as well be Amiga. If not Amiga, it will still happen, and it won't be more of the same. That defies the definition of the word 'change'.

The Amiga line was originally defined from that need for change and innovation. It can be so again.
 

Offline ppcamiga1

Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #97 on: September 08, 2012, 06:55:04 PM »
Quote from: dammy;707216
If it's exotic closed source chip designs that beats the current  market leaders,


then amiga with ECS or AGA are not amiga because ECS and AGA were outdated and far behind mac in 1990 and mac,pc in 1992.
 

Offline psxphill

Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #98 on: September 08, 2012, 07:09:47 PM »
Quote from: ppcamiga1;707223
then amiga with ECS or AGA are not amiga because ECS and AGA were outdated and far behind mac in 1990 and mac,pc in 1992.

Every computer/console that commodore made with an Amiga logo is an Amiga. The Amiga Technologies 1200 & 4000T are also Amiga's because they were pretty much the same as the commodore ones as they were made from left over parts and the old designs.
 
AmigaOS 4 can run on Amiga's with a PPC board, but it can also run on non Amiga hardware. For example the X1000 is an AmigaOne, not an Amiga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmigaOS_4#Compatible_hardware
 

Offline dammy

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #99 on: September 08, 2012, 08:20:55 PM »
Quote from: ppcamiga1;707223
then amiga with ECS or AGA are not amiga because ECS and AGA were outdated and far behind mac in 1990 and mac,pc in 1992.

With AGA's release, we were way behind the power curve by then.  ECS wasn't too far off from the rest of what was considered consumer gfx capabilities in that price range.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2012, 08:37:55 PM by dammy »
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Offline runequester

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #100 on: September 08, 2012, 08:53:04 PM »
I think AGA was less the issue than sheer processing power, honestly.
 

Offline haywirepc

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #101 on: September 08, 2012, 09:11:59 PM »
The raspberry pi's success shows that a small, low resource computer with different architecture than the mainstream can be very profitable.

The problem is, designing, prototyping and manufacturing costs a great deal, in
both time and resources. CUSA isn't going to actually invest a great deal of
time or resources into such a venture.

Dumping linux on a standard pc with CUSA wallpapers is alot easier. But go
try and source parts to build 100's of pcs the same way. Even that is not easy.
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #102 on: September 08, 2012, 10:21:29 PM »
Quote from: haywirepc;707242
The raspberry pi's success shows that a small, low resource computer with different architecture than the mainstream can be very profitable.

The problem is, designing, prototyping and manufacturing costs a great deal, in
both time and resources. CUSA isn't going to actually invest a great deal of
time or resources into such a venture.

Dumping linux on a standard pc with CUSA wallpapers is alot easier. But go
try and source parts to build 100's of pcs the same way. Even that is not easy.


I...wouldn't call it a success just yet, more time is needed. They had some serious launch problems, and shipping was nightmarish. If these types of trends continue, they could go the way of the do-do bird...or Commodore.

And, again, its just a PC, a really small PC.
 

Offline commodorejohn

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #103 on: September 08, 2012, 10:27:06 PM »
Quote from: MiAmigo;707255
And, again, its just a PC, a really small PC.
No it isn't. It's an ARM SoC-based system, look it up. It is running Linux, but there is at least a RISC OS port underway, efforts to get AROS running are in progress (though last I checked it's still running it from a Linux base,) and who knows what else will happen in the future...
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Offline runequester

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Re: What's the Deal With CommodoreUSA?
« Reply #104 on: September 08, 2012, 10:28:20 PM »
I think they really underestimated the level of demand too. Happens to a lot of kickstarter projects too.