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Author Topic: MorphOS ahead of AROS?  (Read 72495 times)

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Offline Iggy

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #59 on: April 04, 2012, 02:48:42 AM »
Quote from: Terminills;686891
lol I think Mazze knows that. ;)


@Mazze

Trouble maker.

As for the question.  My Morphos box is the perfect size to level my dryer :P  Other than that who cares.   I use them both I however prefer my AROS boxes even tho they aren't as polished.   To quote a friend of mine finished OS' bore me.

That's why I let you guys lure me in haiku!
But, then again, its also why Linux bugs me. Its never quite finished.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #60 on: April 04, 2012, 08:50:29 AM »
@XDelusion

Quote from: XDelusion;686858
From what I read, I do believe this basically is the game plan.

...

All in all I don't like this idea. I have been looking for modern(ish) hardware that I could score at a cheap price, and be able to run a large chunk of my more resoure intensive classic Amiga apps on, and until my eMac died, despite it's limited resources, has been the answer to my praryers! I would only hope that in the future that the MorphOS team would strive to maintain classic support on what ever new hardware that they may be targetting, for as long as possible. I like not needing Amiga rom images, I like not having to load up an emulator, I like being able to run my old software as if it were native, and it does not bother me in the least that I am not able to play the old games without emulation because of the chip set because when you are gaming, you are not using the OS, so I could really care less. It's when I'm running classic apps that I don't want to be running an emulator.

...

Anyhow, there is my UAE rant, and why I prefer MorphOS like it is. Backwards compatible. Though again, by the time all this takes place, we'll probably be at version 4.x which I'm sure is going to be VERY impressive, and I'm sure that when 3.x comes out, developers will get excited again and will begin to start coding fresh new apps and games for it.


Thank you for your long and well written post! :)

I agree that this route would be a big and non-trivial mental step of acceptance a MorphOS user would have to take, *should* it happen (which again is highly hypothetical, and something in the future anyway). There is a beauty in MorphOS's way of simply not caring if the binaries are 68k or PPC but treats them just the same, allowing them to truly work together in the same environment, they all using the very same resources, arexx communicating with them and binding them together (arexx being 68k itself even), etc, etc.

1) But if you want this to remain unchanged in the future, I think you must sacrifice the possibility of moving to a different architecture (due to big/little endian problems (at least on x86, not sure about ARM) *together* with the enormous effort it is to write a good 68k JIT native for that new ISA, which again would be pointless (at least on x86) due to endianness issues), and by that you will sacrifice the chance of having MorphOS running on future proof HW (the PPC is dead, and everything tied to it is bound to die as well). You would also sacrifice the possibility of having true SMP, true MP, 64-bit, etc, i.e. many of the things people have been crying for for several years now. You would also sacrifice the only chance for MorphOS of reaching a wider audience, outside this shrinking little community, or to even survive more than a couple of years ahead from now.

2) The flip side of the coin is that if you want to move the MorphOS platform to an architecture that still has a pulse and is future proof (meaning a chance of long term survival of MorphOS, the PPC is dead), and if you want to harvest the benefits of multiple CPU cores, memory protection, 64-bit, etc, then you are in for a break from the past. It means a new endian model and an Amiga API that is different in maybe few but way too fundamental ways for even trying to uphold any kind of backwards compatibility to the old Amiga API environment, a new set of API's, rules and guides would apply. The old (and current) 3.1 API centric applications have prerequisites, a way of function, and makes assumptions of their surrounding environment that simply wouldn't be true anymore. It would be a "3rd generation" system, and it won't be free of sacrifices to go there. To a user, it would look and feel the same, have much of the same features, the same Ambient, the same applications in a recompiled version (mostly, at least). It wouldn't at all be like the Mac's migration from OS9 to OSX, not even close, it would still be MorphOS with most of its advantages intact (and a couple of major *new* advantages on top of that). But we would probably have to settle with something like AROS is doing today for the 68k emulation part. And personally, I honestly think that would be an *acceptable* price to pay. And as has been construed by many people in this thread (including you), MorphOS is about so much more than just its superior 68k emulation...! :)

So the way I see it, there are basically two choices, leading in two different directions, and there are sacrifices to them both. Question is - which one do we prefer?
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2012, 09:16:34 AM »
I am happy that the discussion here is ok and not that "high emotional" :-)

I can not decide what MorphOS users (and the core developers) want only give my personal view. Here X86 (including Apple) dominates the market, most people (including ex-amigians) have one at home. ARM is niche (expecially for the new devices/tablets) but it has no meaning on the desktop. So the only logical choice can be to take X86. Then it would be the question how to get there (example would be to work together with the Aros community). It might be that the integration of 68k is now more tight than it is possible with Janus-UAE but i think it is a small price compared with sticking on a oldfashioned hardware. There was cooperation between Aros and MorphOS in the past on a smaller scale but it could be much extended and both sides would benefit. And I am personally convinced that Aros will reach "MorphOS-Level" with or without help of the MorphOS-Community. But working together would help both camps.
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2012, 10:35:12 AM »
Quote from: OlafS3;686924
I am happy that the discussion here is ok and not that "high emotional" :-)


Less people suffering from Amiga Persecution Complex trying desperately to defend outright moronic decisions without any rational arguments whatsoever... ;) :lol:

Quote
ARM is niche (expecially for the new devices/tablets) but it has no meaning on the desktop.


While ARM indeed has its application-specific uses today, its volume and market is huge, it has many benefits compared to x86, its areas of use is growing rapidly (it's "kicking upwards"), and its "meaning" on the desktop might very well change within 2-3 years, with the introduction of ARMv8 and nVidias announced "x86 killers".

Quote
So the only logical choice can be to take X86.


Agreed, especially if the plan is still to persue the "MorphOS is Desktop Only" route, I wrote something about this a few weeks ago.

Anyway, depending on how they go ahead with this new developments, maybe it will be possible to support *both* architectures without any bigger troubles? I mean, if they shift focus to "Ease of Portability" from "Evolved Amiga features while maintaining excellent and seemless 68k backwards compatibility"? Some extra work would have to be put into SDK development etc, and maybe they will *mostly focus* on x86 for the desktop but could accept deals for more or less embedded ARM based applications without greater effort, should the opportunity arise? Will need work, yes, but it will be much easier after having gone through the changes needed to get to "3rd Generation" anyway (i.e. any 68k by UAE in AROS style, and an evolved environment/API more flexible than the rigid, old 3.1). Anyway, they are apparently using a virtual environment (if you haven't done it yet, you should browse through that first post, there are lots of cool info there) for this development, so they can work on development without even having a machine, and will be making the decision of which architecture to choose later on. IMHO, this sounds like a clever and flexible approach! :)
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline billyfish

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #63 on: April 04, 2012, 10:59:46 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;686845
Well, I can understand how you feel, but I'd have to back up Xdelusion's statements.
MorphOS is polished enough to rely on and AROS is interesting, and even fun, but not reliable (sorry Staf).


That's true. I can see from a business point of view why people want features that differentiate themselves from the opposition, but I just think it works better if people go "hey your os has got that ace dancing monkeys feature and ours has the banjo-playing hippo, fancy a swap?". I think things like Fab's browser, ports from AROS and Cinammon writer, etc., just gives a win-win approach. I guess I'm so used to a collaborative approach in my work so it's kind of my default setting. There are quite a few people with more than one of the ng systems and I assume they don't have vehement arguments with themselves!
 

Offline billyfish

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #64 on: April 04, 2012, 11:01:12 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;686929
Less people suffering from Amiga Persecution Complex trying desperately to defend outright moronic decisions without any rational arguments whatsoever... ;) :lol:


You really can't see the irony of you saying this, can you? /me crawls back under a rock.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2012, 11:02:44 AM »
I read some time ago that there was a opensource project to emulate PPC on X86 but I do not find it (just a Mac-Emulator). For (old) PPC Applications there should be something like VirtualPC, for 68k Janus-UAE. 68k and PPC can be integrated but of course not so tight as now. Everything has its price.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2012, 11:09:09 AM »
you could differentiate even when you work together and have a common base. Ask the Gnome and KDE fans :-)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2012, 11:31:31 AM »
@ billyfish

There are many joints between MorphOS and AROS, there has been "cooperation" (MorphOS using AROS stuff, and returns the changes/improvements), and still is (WPA/WPA2 seems like one recent example?). As you say, porting MorphOS apps like Odyssey to AROS is a good thing, etc. But MorphOS developers are developing MorphOS, not AROS, and I think this will continue... ;)

Quote from: billyfish;686931
Quote
Less people suffering from Amiga Persecution Complex trying desperately to defend outright moronic decisions without any rational arguments whatsoever... ;) :lol:
You really can't see the irony of you saying this, can you?


Actually no, since:
1) I don't suffer from Amiga Persecution Complex (the opposite actually, I have a complete and rational understanding of Amiga's (and MorphOS's) problems, and I'm at peace with that, there are even links in this page that proves it)
2) I'm trying to *expose* those outright moronic decisions...
3) ... *using* rational arguments!

So no, the only ironic thing here was your comment about irony... :lol:

Quote
/me crawls back under a rock.

Good! And stay there! :)


@ OlafS3

Quote from: OlafS3;686932
I read some time ago that there was a opensource project to emulate PPC on X86 but I do not find it (just a Mac-Emulator). For (old) PPC Applications there should be something like VirtualPC, for 68k Janus-UAE. 68k and PPC can be integrated but of course not so tight as now. Everything has its price.

I think a PPC emulator would cost more in effort than it would gain in reward; most PPC software is still maintained and can be recompiled, so it would probably only be a waste of time...?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2012, 01:17:39 PM by takemehomegrandma »
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2012, 11:38:36 AM »
when a PPC emulation is not needed then the change would be no big problem. I do not know how big is the difference between Aros and MorphOS API but as MorphOS seems to be very compatible to 31 and Aros is the reimplementation of 31 (+improvements) it should be not impossible (if there is the interest to go that way)
 

Offline billyfish

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2012, 12:17:49 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;686936
@ billyfish

There are many joints between MorphOS and AROS, there has been "cooperation" (MorphOS using AROS stuff, and returns the changes/improvements), and still is (WPA/WPA2 seems like one recent example?). As you say, porting MorphOS apps like Odyssey to AROS is a good thing, etc. But MorphOS developers are developing MorphOS, not AROS, and I think this will continue... ;)


True, but I think when it's worth the effort of developing something to be cross-platform you can start doing that the outset. Apps like YAM, SimpleMail, Odysssey, etc. exist for all 4 platforms. When you write code in a modular fashion, it's pretty easy to hive off the platform-specific bits.
 
I wish OS3.5/9 and OS4 had settled upon MUI rather than Reaction since IMHO it's way better. It's good that the port of Odyssey has brought the OS4 port of MUI up to spec and hopefully Zune can follow. Similarly I think DOpus being ported to all ng systems would be ace as, again in IMHO, I prefer it to what I've seen of the OS4 workbench, Wanderer and Ambient.

So how about a MUI/Zune & DOpus-based UI as a future basis for the NG systems? I'd like that!

Quote

Actually no, since:
1) I don't suffer from Amiga Prosecution Complex (the opposite actually, I have a complete and rational understanding of Amiga's (and MorphOS's) problems, and I'm at peace with that, there are even links in this page that proves it)


LOL, your Freudian slip betrays you! :-) I think you do suffer from "Amiga Prosecution Complex" :-)

Quote

2) I'm trying to *expose* those outright moronic decisions...
3) ... *using* rational arguments!


Rational arguments are great, using terms like "outright moronic" are the opposite.
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #70 on: April 04, 2012, 12:36:29 PM »
I think the discussion here is more fact-based and rational than the discussions when "red" and "blue" are involved. There are already many ties between both camps and there could be a win-win situation for both without giving up all differences.
 

Offline billyfish

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #71 on: April 04, 2012, 12:49:13 PM »
Quote from: OlafS3;686944
I think the discussion here is more fact-based and rational than the discussions when "red" and "blue" are involved. There are already many ties between both camps and there could be a win-win situation for both without giving up all differences.


Totally agree, I must admit the choice of processor concerns me less than the software available. I admire all of the OSes and I'd extend it to being not just how can MorphOS and AROS collaborate, but bring in OS4 and, heck, even OS 3 stuff with DOpus being a case in point. I still have Magellan and use DOpus 9 on my PC, great piece of software.

Hypothetically if you could draw up a wishlist of software/features taken from any of the OSes, or indeed new features, what springs to mind?
 

Offline Methuselas

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #72 on: April 04, 2012, 12:58:38 PM »
Quote from: Fats;686862
It's just the old ethernal infighting in the amiga community that annoys me; and I have to admit this thread has been one of the less loaded once.

greets,
Staf.


Once again,  I couldn't agree more.
\'Using no way as way. Having no limitation as limitation.\' - Bruce Lee

\'No, sorry. I don\'t get my tits out. They\'re not actually real, you know? Just two halves of a grapefruit...\' - Miki Berenyi

\'Evil will always triumph because good is dumb.\' - Dark Helmet :roflmao:

\'And for future reference, it might be polite to ask someone if you can  quote them in your signature, rather than just citing them to make a  sales pitch.\' - Karlos. :rtf
 

Offline OlafS3

Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #73 on: April 04, 2012, 01:13:33 PM »
Features:

Aros:
I think the main advantages (between others) are that it is available for different hardware (X86, ARM, 68k and I think PPC) and even hosted (f.e. on Linux what is a nice option :-) ) and 3D support.

I try but I am no expert for AOS and MOS...

MorphOS:
MUI4
Ambient (or similar)
Poseidon (already in MorphOS and Aros)
and a lot more I do not know :-)

AOS:
I do not know much about AOS to say any features because I do not use it. I know that there are many components done different like Reaction instead of MUI, another USB-Stack...

3.1.:
Most things you can do in 3.1. you already can do in any of the NG-platforms. I think main advantage is the huge software-base, so tons of software :-)

What I think what should be there:
common drivers (USB, PCI)
cross-platform support (including hosted versions)
cross-plattform development tools
common software
API should be equal (as far as possible), GUI can be different (like KDE or Gnome)
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: MorphOS ahead of AROS?
« Reply #74 from previous page: April 04, 2012, 01:15:52 PM »
Quote from: billyfish;686941
I think you do suffer from "Amiga Prosecution Complex" :-)


:lol:

OK I get it now, "prosecution", "persecution" — English isn't my native language and some words *do* look kind of the same... :)

Quote
Rational arguments are great, using terms like "outright moronic" are the opposite.


Well, "moronic" is actually a very good (and rational) adjective for describing a strategy for platform building that involves $3,000 computers of 2007 level that offers little more than a $100 computer from 2004, believing this will lead to platform growth and a sustainable future, and getting upset when someone makes posts *in a forum* on how it *won't*! ;)

Anyway, meta discussions about discussions are off-topic in *any* thread (also in this one!), and it would be much better if you would stop this, or at least take it to AW.net where this is seems to be the norm. If you have arguments to counter mine about the A1X1K, bring it on (preferably in the now running thread that *is about* the A1X1K and not here), but please stop filling the forums with pointless discussions about the discussion, it only brings up the noise...
MorphOS is Amiga done right! :)