Deep philosophical question: What makes an Amiga an Amiga?

[takemehomegrandma]

Simply put. It's a computer that runs AmigaOS natively.

Without the Amiga operating system there would be no Amiga computer :-)

I agree with Fishy_Fiz and Drummerboy above, and would like to add on top of their comments: Back in the days, when the A500 was at its peak and was mostly used for gaming by the broad groups of users, the OS was at best very far, far in the background. The OS never had a focus or a priority in development back then, not even from Commodore. Often you used kickstart to physically bring up the computer and loading a game, that then took over and had its own ways of utilizing the Amiga HW directly. No sight of what you would call "AmigaOS" today, and by your definition, an Amiga 500 playing a game won't be an Amiga!

I have full respect for people thinking Amiga is all about the Amiga hardware. Because they are right; traditionally, Amiga was always about the hardware, and the OS was secondary and nothing that was really developed and evolved in a way even close to the HW evolution.

I think what you *really* want to say, however, was something along the lines of "It's all about the API" that I wrote in my comment above. I think this is what you really wanted to say, -Can it run an OS that behaves the Amiga way, has the Amiga strengths and weaknesses, the Amiga ways of doing things, runs the Amiga appliactions, etc, then it's an Amiga. But then you realized that this would also include AROS and MorphOS in the philosophical definition of what Amiga is, and because of that, you also choose to combine it with the Trade Mark definition, in order to exclude the others. "Only AmigaOS(TM) is Amiga". I'm not surprised with that, coming from you, but it's sad to this kind of apartheid mentality everytime it shows...

[paolone]

I guess my definition would be 1:1 to this one:

@orb85750

Philosophical Perspective (what you asked for):
The API is what defines something Amiga, because everything else (the entire "environment", all the underlying OS code (all the libraries, devices, etc)) derives from that, as well as all third party applications that makes use of it. The API is the core, it's what sets the rules, the possibilities, the limitations, and everything else comes from this. Hence, anything that can put up a proper Amiga API is Amiga, including (in order of appearance) Amiga OS 1-3, AROS, MorphOS and OS4.

[Crumb]

An Amiga must have Paula, Denise and Agnus (or Alice/Lisa in case it's AGA). An Amiga is an Amiga even if you run Linux, Amix or NetBSD on it.

An AmigaOS-compatible computer is something that runs some incarnation of AmigaOS but it's not an Amiga (doesn't have Amiga custom chips): it cannot run natively Amiga software that bypasses AmigaOS.

FPGA machines are Amiga-compatible reimplementations but are not Amiga machines, although in any case minimig is more "Amiga" than any PPC board with a sticker.

Example: A DRACO is an AmigaOS-compatible computer that runs Amiga software but it's not a real Amiga. A PPC board with an Amiga sticker won't turn into an Amiga even if some people insist on calling it "Amiga" just like a parrot won't be a dog even if it barks like a dog and hates cats and you call it "dog" and put him a small dog collar.

PS: An AmigaOS-compatible machine can be a wonderful machine, you could even run Amiga software on an emulator, you could run recompiled AmigaOS software but it won't be an Amiga, and sticking calling a standard ppc board "Amiga" is as silly as pretending&claiming that a "cat" is a "dog", both can bring you good company as pets but aren't the same.

[dammy]

Amiga, for me back in the day, was a really cool gaming system that merged OS and 68K hardware as complete system.  Hell, it could run games while Cnet PRO was dealing with someone who called into the BBS or it was calling out for UUCP traffic.   Best of all, bang:buck ratio was great.  

Today, it's quiet different for me.  Amiga is a concept of advanced/modern hardware that will allow ideas to be pushed forward if not to the extreme bleeding edge.  It has to be a computer (desktop or mobile devices) that will allow me to run modern OSs and associated software that I may need at that particular time.  I would love to be able to relive the last 25 years, but that's not happening and my concern is for the next 25 years and the bar has already been set to a significant height that needs to exceeded my expectations of a OS for the next 25 years.

[wawrzon]

who needs these "philosophical questions"? i have my one of my amigas (a4k) standing here in front of me (currently mostly running aros). and i have my pc under my desk. i dont have to ask me any such questions, nor i am interested in answers. but to each his own.

[kickstart]

An Amiga must have Paula, Denise and Agnus (or Alice/Lisa in case it's AGA). An Amiga is an Amiga even if you run Linux, Amix or NetBSD on it.

An AmigaOS-compatible computer is something that runs some incarnation of AmigaOS but it's not an Amiga (doesn't have Amiga custom chips): it cannot run natively Amiga software that bypasses AmigaOS.

FPGA machines are Amiga-compatible reimplementations but are not Amiga machines, although in any case minimig is more "Amiga" than any PPC board with a sticker.

Example: A DRACO is an AmigaOS-compatible computer that runs Amiga software but it's not a real Amiga. A PPC board with an Amiga sticker won't turn into an Amiga even if some people insist on calling it "Amiga" just like a parrot won't be a dog even if it barks like a dog and hates cats and you call it "dog" and put him a small dog collar.

PS: An AmigaOS-compatible machine can be a wonderful machine, you could even run Amiga software on an emulator, you could run recompiled AmigaOS software but it won't be an Amiga, and sticking calling a standard ppc board "Amiga" is as silly as pretending&claiming that a "cat" is a "dog", both can bring you good company as pets but aren't the same.

Nice... as easy as that.

[Snoozy]

who needs these "philosophical questions"? i have my one of my amigas (a4k) standing here in front of me (currently mostly running aros). and i have my pc under my desk. i dont have to ask me any such questions, nor i am interested in answers. but to each his own.

Totally agree

[orb85750]

who needs these "philosophical questions"? i have my one of my amigas (a4k) standing here in front of me (currently mostly running aros). and i have my pc under my desk. i dont have to ask me any such questions, nor i am interested in answers. but to each his own.

It goes without saying that some people (actually, most) are not philosophical in nature.  They just do stuff and use stuff.  (That's OK -- this thread is not for you.)  Others like to dig deeper.

[persia]

One man's philosopher is another man's troll.  

We've changed, the world has changed, computing has changed in the years since the death of Commodore.  I bought a shiny new plaything that was bleeding edge, with a sense that we could change our world.  It's that feeling that I've always associated with the Amiga, not whether there was a snapshot menu selection or a particular set of custom chips.  But the feeling has passed us by and all we are left with are the machines that remained in the wake of Commodore's death.  It's most nostalgia now.  More bittersweet memories of lost youth.

It goes without saying that some people (actually, most) are not philosophical in nature.  They just do stuff and use stuff.  (That's OK -- this thread is not for you.)  Others like to dig deeper.

[wawrzon]

It goes without saying that some people (actually, most) are not philosophical in nature.  They just do stuff and use stuff.  (That's OK -- this thread is not for you.)  Others like to dig deeper.

but why ask that about amiga? where does it lead? you have to be aware, that it only can be answered on subjective basis and the possible answers are unlimited. especially that this isnt an amiga related question at all. similar questions you might ask about common properties of elements in any relatively large sets. probably you will end up with the "theory of forms" and the relation between ideas and objects. if you solve that "identity" question for all possible sets you will answer the question in this particular case too, but not the other way around..

[commodorejohn]

We've changed, the world has changed, computing has changed in the years since the death of Commodore.  I bought a shiny new plaything that was bleeding edge, with a sense that we could change our world.  It's that feeling that I've always associated with the Amiga, not whether there was a snapshot menu selection or a particular set of custom chips.  But the feeling has passed us by and all we are left with are the machines that remained in the wake of Commodore's death.  It's most nostalgia now.  More bittersweet memories of lost youth.

Well, you can keep your midlife crisis, I'll enjoy the machines for their own merits, thanks.

[commodorejohn]

We've changed, the world has changed, computing has changed in the years since the death of Commodore.  I bought a shiny new plaything that was bleeding edge, with a sense that we could change our world.  It's that feeling that I've always associated with the Amiga, not whether there was a snapshot menu selection or a particular set of custom chips.  But the feeling has passed us by and all we are left with are the machines that remained in the wake of Commodore's death.  It's most nostalgia now.  More bittersweet memories of lost youth.

It's silly to get hung up on the failure of the present to be the future of the past; I'd rather just enjoy the Amiga for its own merits, thanks.

[vox]

Before you answer, please consider that, while the new Amiga systems being released are somewhat removed from the classics, they are not as far removed as the current Mac machines are from the classic Mac machines (and I don't think anyone is complaining that the latest Mac is not really a Mac -- On second thought,  I guess someone is always complaining).

Anyway, please give it some thought.  I'm still struggling with this question myself, though I have not yet lost sleep over it.  There's probably no right or wrong answer, which makes me somewhat uncomfortable too.

Before we used to think its the hardware. After Commodore went bust we have learned its he OS no matter the flavor.

Its kind of "Amiga Zen" someone tried to explain here
http://www.monkeyhouse.eclipse.co.uk/amiga/zen.htm

[orb85750]

but why ask that about amiga? where does it lead? you have to be aware, that it only can be answered on subjective basis and the possible answers are unlimited. especially that this isnt an amiga related question at all. similar questions you might ask about common properties of elements in any relatively large sets. probably you will end up with the "theory of forms" and the relation between ideas and objects. if you solve that "identity" question for all possible sets you will answer the question in this particular case too, but not the other way around..

I think many are interested in this topic.  And plenty of well-thought-out answers have been posted.  (I have no doubt that many others are not at all interested in this thread -- that's fine too.)  It's not going to lead to some final "correct" answer that's acceptable to everyone.  But the threads about the best Amiga games (or any other range of topics) don't necessarily lead to some final answer either.  Was it wrong for me to ask in a non-threatening way what people consider to be an Amiga?  I find it very interesting.  That's why I posted it.

[wawrzon]

well, no offence meant.

[Digiman]

"Effortless superiority via elegant engineering."

Whether it is an A1000 running Marble Madness in 1986 ( no other commercially sold computer or console in the world could run it better, only the Arcade PCB) or an A1200 running Super Stardust AGA (you needed a 10x faster 133mhz Pentium PC costing £1000 MORE to play this game with joysticks)