Commodore USA's Final Challenge to the Community

[Duce]

Dammy, C-USA is not Microsoft.  The idea you'd even remotely compare the two is appalling, regardless of your blind dedication to "the cause".  The Kinect (and your facts are misleading about what you stated about the pre-order factor involving MS directly in a funds down deposit with MS directly) is a completely invalid comparison, and C-USA is not Microsoft.  

MS has a worth of 44 billion dollars roughly, Dammy.  MS doesn't have a pack of insulting, roving fanboys working for free as their ad department.
MS had a revenue of 16 billion dollars, Q4 2011.  

They needed no pre-orders to develop the Kinect on a financial basis, and have never issued cockeyed "challenges" to the community in the guise of "helping".  There's a lot to bitch about when it comes to Microsoft, but the comparison of them and the Kinect and C-USA and this purported project
is insane.  Kinect took pre-orders for Kinect in the same way I can pre-order a video game from a vendor - a guarantee I will be able to obtain one when they become public and nothing more.  I pre-ordered Skyrim, Dammy, via a Best Buy.  Does that somehow imply that Bethesda Software, makers of said game - needed my pre-order to find game development?  If they did, joke is on them, cause all I did was give my name and the retailer saved me a copy for pick-up with no cash down.  Some stores did indeed ask for a deposit on Kinect, but to my knowledge MS themselves never asked for one thin dime to "reserve" one or otherwise fund anything.  I had plenty of friends "pre-order" a Kinect via retailers, which required a deposit in some cases, but never a pre-payment to MS and money going into escrow, lol.  A ridiculous comparison of situations, even for a fanboy, Dammy.

Microsoft has never come onto obscure hobby computer fan sites like A.org wanting to save the day, while simultaneously and blatantly insulting the community wholly at the same time.  I've never got death threats from Microsoft if I stated I disagreed with their business practices.  Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer has never hounded independent journalists, publically calling them homosexuals and asking about their sex lives if said writers gave them bad press.

Your C-USA/MS comparison isn't even as unplausible as an "apples vs. oranges" aspect.  It's like comparing Mars to Earth, entirely irrational and insane, lol.

[dammy]

My co-worker sells jewelry so I asked her how she sells it because I wanted to get involved in sales.  She says she does nothing because jewelry sells itself.  Compare that to CUSA's offer that we have to come up with a number or it won't happen.  That infers their creativity alone can't sell it.  We have to come up with what we want because they're not going to be creative too much beyond what we want which means they're done promoting it in the design phase.

Is your co-worker willing to sell her supply at her dead cost?  That is what Barry is offering to do, is she?  Then restrict her to maybe a possible of  sub 500 customers.  Does that sound like a viable business environment to you?  That is exactly what Barry is dealing with.

[commodorejohn]

If nothing else, I have to give CUSA credit for staging a pretty fair reenactment of the Judgement of Paris.

[dammy]

Dammy, C-USA is not Microsoft.  The idea you'd even remotely compare the two is appalling, regardless of your blind dedication to "the cause".  The Kinect (and your facts are misleading about what you stated about the pre-order factor involving MS directly in a funds down deposit with MS directly) is a completely invalid comparison, and C-USA is not Microsoft.  

Microsoft didn't offer it as dead cost either and I doubt a third party was used for escrow either.  

If you don't want to participate with C=USA, don't and stop posting about it.  That's rather easy now, isn't it?  It would have probably kept this thread down to a few pages instead of the 11+ pages filled with haters foaming at the mouth over a really good offer from C=USA.

[haywirepc]

Give us a bunch of money and a list of things you like...  Within 6 months we'll go from pipe dream to working manufactured computers.

That sounds like a good deal to you? Your on dope, you really must have drank the cool aid when you visited their "corporate office" which amounts to my garage with a storefront attached.

Steven

[Duce]

You were making comparisons that MS is reliant or otherwise soliciting or taking pre-orders and the associated funds to get products out the door or to otherwise make things "worth their while", Dammy.  That's false, and the "Challenge to the Community" from C-USA and a Best Buy taking pre-order funds to hold a Kinect when it arrives in store vs. a company with an abhorrent track record soliciting funds are two entirely different worlds.  With C-USA's track record, man - you just aren't going to have too many people believe they suddenly changed ways and now solely exist to make low volume gear at no profit.  You'd have better luck selling a glass of water to a drowning man, and all the statements of noble intentions for the community interest will not whitewash the PR nightmare of the past year or two.  But hey, that's why rugs were invented - so stuff can be swept under them, I suppose.  Guess when this doesn't pan out, the "Amiga scene is broken" and we'll once again not be your "target market".

PS:  No one from C-USA is answering the very basic questions that were asked of them.  Consider my mouth sewn shut the day I can read a review on any reputable website of their offerings, until then it's just more smoke and mirrors.  Send one to Engadget, simple enough.  Hell, bill me for the shipping costs on the 2 way shipping on the review unit.

A very simple request of people that otherwise swear their products are the best thing since sliced bread.  BTW, how are you enjoying your new C-USA VIC or 64, Dammy?  I would assume such an ardent devotee would have given his review if he owned one.  You do own one of these new Commodore machines, don't you?  Answer the question please.

And FWIW, I felt the same with the X1000 down payment/ beta tester scheme.

Last time I asked polite questions I was told "Hey guy, we don't owe you any such thing, don't buy our products, ****head" and banned from your forums, like many others were.  If you're going to spam product here, either answer some basic questions or have the decency of paying for ad space where you can preach the gospel to the choir without having us pesky "trolls" ruin your little grab bag of free advertising.  I got no issue seeing C-USA banner ads here, none - at least the ad revenue would help keep bills paid for A.org.

Said it before and will say it again, people using community forums as advertising dropsites and said community forums soliciting donations simply don't work side by side.  I love A.org, but why should I donate a thin dime when "the saviors" just use it for free press?  I'm not the only one in that boat.

[Amiga_Nut]

It's quite obvious people don't want to put down an advance order pre-payment from the poll results, and who can blame them?

[persia]

At last, someone with clear vision...

If nothing else, I have to give CUSA credit for staging a pretty fair reenactment of the Judgement of Paris.

[dammy]

Give us a bunch of money and a list of things you like...  Within 6 months we'll go from pipe dream to working manufactured computers.

Again, the money goes to a third party escrow account, not to C=USA.  Nor did C=USA say what the item would be, they left that up to the online Amiga Community.

That sounds like a good deal to you? Your on dope, you really must have drank the cool aid when you visited their "corporate office" which amounts to my garage with a storefront attached.

Steven

Lets see here, they are offering at dead cost to build something the community wants.  That's mighty evil of them huh?  Amazing, you are telling me what I saw when you have never been there.  Who would have thought?

[dammy]

It's quite obvious people don't want to put down an advance order pre-payment from the poll results, and who can blame them?

Less work for Barry, who can complain about that?

[mongo]

Lets see here, they are offering at dead cost to build something the community wants.  That's mighty evil of them huh?  Amazing, you are telling me what I saw when you have never been there.  Who would have thought?

This is the same company that sells a $180 Seawor KPC210 for $499 and claim they sell it at a loss. They seem to have an interesting idea about what "cost" means.

[EDanaII]

@ AmigaDave

I applaud your efforts in trying to talk sense and make the most of an opportunity, but it is a waste of your time arguing with the few CUSA haters that will never accept anything that they do or say.

You are, sadly, correct, Dave. But one has to try. Well, occasionaly, I have to try. =)

I am no fan of CUSA either, but if they really want to make amends with the community, I will let them (if they can). My doubt is that they will never get 500 people to agree to anything.

And, sadly, I gotta (mostly) agree with you here too. Where I don't agree is that if they were to take leadership of this community, they could get 500 Amigans to agree. Leaving it up to a group which is fairly evenly divided on which way to go is a potential recipe for disaster. Just look at the CPU Poll. It has PPC and x86 nearly evenly divided, with PPC having a 5 point edge over x86.

The problem is, the PPC solution will likely be as expensive as any presented so far and I doubt that they'll get their 500 customer buy-in as a result. Whereas, the x86 solution is likely more affordable and stands a better chance of their 500+ buyer stipulation.

Here's how I expect them to play it, however: they'll do their project planning, come back and say, OK, the PPC solution will take this long and cost this much. How many o' you wanna buy into this? And, I expect, there will be much wheeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth on the price. I also expect that they'll say "the time to put together a new Mobo/PPC combo is longer than the six months we stipulated for this project."

But here's where leadership could come into play. I'm in the x86 camp, but I've also suggested "that if it must be PPC, then XBox, Wii or PS3" and that would be one alternative to bringing the price and time down.

So, I see this polling business as a communication tool. "You want this, it will take this long and cost this much." "OK, how about this, instead?" "OK, here's a third option." "Look, if you don't like the options we got, we can't help you."

Of course, like you, I don't really see Amigan's coming together this way; there will always division in this group, so I would have taken a different strategy than CUSA.

It would have been something like this:
* Fund AROS bounties to move AROS to a professional level.
* Fund AROS bounties to make it ready for a particular set of x86 hardware.
* Created properly branded case and sold it with that hardware and without AROS.
* Informed the Community, "here it is if ya want it, sorry if you don't. You're free to install AROS on it or whatever you prefer."

I'll bet you good money many of the Wheepers, Wailers and Gnashers would buy it anyway...

[Duce]

You didn't tell me how you were enjoying your C-USA products, Dammy....

Come on, the suspense is killing me, give us a review.  Which Best Buy did you get yours at, so I can make sure to go to that one and see one in person.

:roflmao:

[Rodomoc]

Alright, again from a community standpoint some camps within it are already independently engaged thus I do not see this offer providing a benefit to those groups. Each of them has its own hardware support scheme and also in the software arena. Let's face it, Amiga-land is most likely permanently fragmented from its original roots / user base. Other than some general software code sharing or porting, these camps will never officially merge back into a single entity. Sorry but that's the way it is...

But from a common factor, the community does share a similar background; 68K hardware manufactured by Commodore and its accompanying operating system. So perhaps a common factor hardware 'something or another' could be accomplished that can go to a multiplatform OS base (AROS-OS4-MorphOS). This is already somewhat accomplished with UAE based software. Everyone incorporates it to some degree or another. This is the approach I suggest only in a hardware format.

So what about a really nice FPGA PCI type card that is stuffable into the various Amiga camp hardware architectures? A fast FPGA that could implement the 68K CPU/FPU's, custom chipset things or other desired features from the Commodore original design. Throw in everything the existing Catweasel does while one is at it. So the idea is - that each individual OS handles its own base functions like mass storage devices-ethernet-usb-whatever, and the expansion card provides an old world hardware experience. I say all of this because in looking at something like Amithlon, it demonstrates that various core hardware functions can be handled by modern hardware without the AmigaOS really breaking. Obviously Amithlon is only a partial solution regarding some features. Therefore take this same approach in an expansion card, and fill in whatever must have Commodore missing blanks you feel the need to have. Stuff it into your next gen AmigaOS hardware of choice and call it a day. The entire community wins and not just one camp. If I am not mistaken, such a similar card was developed already a long time ago. So what is the harm in taking a fresh look at something like this?

Being that FPGA is involved, a large degree of customization should be possible. Let's say Natami releases a killer new CPU core - cool, throw it in. Or the latest and greatest AGA core, etc... None of this work would be wasted or delegated to a single camp. In a small way, some unity could be built with this approach. Maybe there are a few models of this card eventually. A slower PCI based, up to super wicked PCIe-16 model that might have a much more powerul FPGA. While a card like this is built, provide any useful signalling to expansion pins. Any number of card specifications could be invented here.

So each new Amiga camp gets a piece, 68K and original Commodore stuff is retained and at an improved hardware level.

You build something like that, and I'll buy it, it is that simple.

[eb15]

What you're calling an olive branch, I'll call out as simple posturing...
Calling it the "Final Challenge" reminds one of other "final" messages which have no import.

[odin]

Holy mackerel, Batman. Pre-orders constructions in Amigaland? Is there even one example since the demise of Commodore where it actually delivered? And it'll work this time around, because...?