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Offline digiflip

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #44 from previous page: June 09, 2011, 03:40:08 PM »
got duke nukem forever today for pc but cant play says not released yet on steam lol
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Offline Crumb

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #45 on: June 09, 2011, 06:07:30 PM »
@Cammy

I think the problem with both Wolf3D and Duke Nukem was not c2p at all, it was slower than Mac version even if you used RTG.

The c2p+MMU*code can be taken from ADoom although IIRC that MMU code only worked with 040/060 (I may be wrong). I think Duke Nukem required FPU but I can't remember, perhaps it's possible to use integers in some parts to speed it up.

A proper AGA port would use demoscene techniques like killing the OS, transfering data to chipram between copper interruption of screen drawn and vblank and it would perform number crunching while c2p is being done :-)
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Offline NovaCoder

Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #46 on: June 10, 2011, 12:56:08 AM »
Quote from: utri007;643803
Has anyone checked those atari sources? Are they useable?????

Is there any point to advertise them? Mean are they C, commented well, etc.

As I have understand, original sources was quite difficult, how big difference is to atari sources?


Hiya,

Yep I've had a look, should be helpful to me for my AGA port.   Most of the assembler stuff will have to be updated but it should still help me.  I'll have to do a compare to the original PC source code to see what they've changed.
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Offline NovaCoder

Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #47 on: June 10, 2011, 01:05:33 AM »
Quote from: Cammy;643795
We really do need a new, native port of Duke3D that can run in low resolutions. I wonder if, and hope there's a way to use the MMU to redraw the areas of the screen that have changed in the C2P, the way Shapeshifter does it. Playing games in Shapeshifter with the MuEVD driver is so fast, even in 640x400/480 I get full speed from games like Indiana Jones & The Fate of Atlantis, with speach and full 256 colours. I'll bet that Atari source code has some good optimisations in it, but the C2P routine would totally need to be rewritten for the Amiga I guess, which is why I hope a MMU will help since the game will only run on faster machines which generally have MMUs anyway.


Using the MMU (040/060) during C2P is not a problem but it's not actually meant to be a very good way of doing it from what I've read in developer forums.   I'm surprised that you get such good performance from using Shapeshifter as it is emulating a Mac and running in 640x480 8 bit using AGA.   In my C2P tests AGA runs like a dead-dog in 640x480 8 bit so I'm not sure how Shapeshifter does it, maybe using the MMU to redraw only part of the screen is the answer for doing fast 640x480.  I'll have to do some tests and see what kind of performance I can get out of C2P in AGA using the MMU to do partial updates.

Quote from: Crumb;643841
@Cammy

I think the problem with both Wolf3D and Duke Nukem was not c2p at all, it was slower than Mac version even if you used RTG.

The c2p+MMU*code can be taken from ADoom although IIRC that MMU code only worked with 040/060 (I may be wrong). I think Duke Nukem required FPU but I can't remember, perhaps it's possible to use integers in some parts to speed it up.

A proper AGA port would use demoscene techniques like killing the OS, transfering data to chipram between copper interruption of screen drawn and vblank and it would perform number crunching while c2p is being done :-)


Hiya,

It looks like Duke Nukem does use the FPU which would explain why it it would be slow slow on anything but an 060.   Swapping to fixed-point maths would obviously help but I guess it would still be way too much for an 030 (the original requirements are for a 486DX2/66!).  

Yes the Doom MMU routines are for 040/060 only.

I like developing WB friendly games, bypassing the OS is not the way it's done these days ;)
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 01:14:49 AM by NovaCoder »
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Offline Cammy

Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #48 on: June 10, 2011, 01:18:44 AM »
Hi NovaCoder, I'm surprised you're replying to me and I'm glad you don't have me blocked. The MMU is indeed used to only update the parts of the screen that have changed, which is why using MacOS and playing still-screen games is so fast in Shapeshifter. Scrolling games aren't too bad either, but you can see that's when it starts to slow a little, like scrolling around a landscape in Warcraft II. But I think when the panel and the black area around the main view of a FPS game aren't being updated constantly, it might be advantageous if the C2P routine only updated the area that's moving rather than the whole screen. The best person for you to talk to about it is Thomas Richter, I'm sure he could help you really speed up SCUMMVM if you still wanted to work on that.

I haven't used a 040/060 Amiga yet, so everything I report is results from my various 030/020 AGA and ECS Amigas.
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Offline LaserBack

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #49 on: June 10, 2011, 04:06:20 AM »
duke nukem yes use fpu on the 040 ....oxypatcher will speedup framerate a bit
I remember duke was faster on fusion than shapeshifter
Fusion generally it is better and faster than shapeshifter on the 040-060 + AGA due to the built-in mmu-refreshed drivers
also there are games that do not works fine on shapeshifter example wolfstein where on fusion works great
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Offline Cammy

Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #50 on: June 10, 2011, 07:27:33 AM »
Wolfenstein works fine on my 030 through Shapeshifter using the MuEVD driver, so I suppose results vary between systems. I'd try Fusion myself except I don't have a copy, it's not free to download so I can't really recommend it around, and Shapeshifter so far has worked very well for me for 95% of software.
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Offline Kesa

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #51 on: June 10, 2011, 12:23:38 PM »
Quote from: J-Golden;643435
Why oh why do people try to argue games with Cammy?
 
When will everyone learn that she is the game GURU for the site!?!?!

Bollocks. I challenge any wanker to Deathmatch anyday :cool:

Quote from: Cammy;643916
Hi NovaCoder, I'm surprised you're replying to me and I'm glad you don't have me blocked.


Huh? Do people always just block you for no reason? Too funny! :roflmao:
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Offline _ThEcRoW

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #52 on: June 10, 2011, 02:37:34 PM »
Isn't Fusion a mac emulator for amigas with ppc cards?.
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Offline zipper

Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #53 on: June 10, 2011, 03:10:20 PM »
Nope. That's iFusion(PPC)
 

Offline LaserBack

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #54 on: June 10, 2011, 03:20:50 PM »
Quote from: Cammy;643954
Wolfenstein works fine on my 030 through Shapeshifter using the MuEVD driver, so I suppose results vary between systems. I'd try Fusion myself except I don't have a copy, it's not free to download so I can't really recommend it around, and Shapeshifter so far has worked very well for me for 95% of software.


Fusion is not sold anymore so theoretically you can get it
it's better than shapeshifter and it have more features like virtual memory ...great AGA mmu video drivers and a emulation control window where you can mount mac devices on WB and other things
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Offline Crumb

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #55 on: June 10, 2011, 03:37:12 PM »
Quote from: NovaCoder;643912
Using the MMU (040/060) during C2P is not a problem but it's not actually meant to be a very good way of doing it from what I've read in developer forums.


Unfortunately most demoscene coders avoid using it but it's quite useful when just parts of graphics move. IMHO for 3D FPS games it's not as useful (well, you may save some bandwitch and cpu time if you stop moving but since 99% of time the user is moving at least the camera it's almost useless)

Quote
I'm surprised that you get such good performance from using Shapeshifter as it is emulating a Mac and running in 640x480 8 bit using AGA.   In my C2P tests AGA runs like a dead-dog in 640x480 8 bit


PAL HiRes Laced is fast, at least it doesn't slow down chipram access. The problem is that you move 4 times the quantity of pixels so you eat at least 4 times the bandwitch. That's the reason MMU is very useful when screen resolution increases: you need to gain some bandwitch and MMU helps to move less pixels.

Quote
so I'm not sure how Shapeshifter does it, maybe using the MMU to redraw only part of the screen is the answer for doing fast 640x480.


that's exactly what Fusion/Shapeshifter do. And in games with little scroll it's definitely very useful. I think that some SCUMM games would take advantage of that (specially on 030)

Moreover: If you ever needed to use pseudo truecolour modes for 2D stuff you should really need use the MMU because chipram bandwitch is chocked and you need to move too much data.

Quote
I'll have to do some tests and see what kind of performance I can get out of C2P in AGA using the MMU to do partial updates.


For 2D games it should really help. I think that the optimal approach to speed up scumm would be modifying it to compose the screen in planar mode directly, if the complexity of the scene increases compose parts of the display in fastram. I guess it would be quite a lot faster than using chunky for everything although I haven't seen SCUMM code. For me it's clear that scumm is not exactly optimized: games that ran perfectly on A500&286 shouldn't need as many resources.

Quote

It looks like Duke Nukem does use the FPU which would explain why it it would be slow slow on anything but an 060.   Swapping to fixed-point maths would obviously help but I guess it would still be way too much for an 030 (the original requirements are for a 486DX2/66!).  


Duke Nukem ran without problems with 486/33 and ISA VGA. 030s may be weak but it should be playable on 030 reducing screen size/detail.

Quote

I like developing WB friendly games, bypassing the OS is not the way it's done these days ;)


Fast AGA graphics and System Friendly usually does not match well. You could be writting to chipram at 7MB/s speed but if you leave the OS alive you lose precious performance. BTW, using Paula instead of AHI also speeds up sound parts. Since the core of the games doesn't require multitasking it would be possible to write code that shuts down the system when AGA is being used but allows multitasking if RTG is being used. It should just require some changes in the init part when AGA is detected and in the rendering part (so AGA code performs c2p or fast2chip memcopy when copper interrupt dictates it. Leaving the OS alive would be bad because you couldn't write to chipram at 7MB/s in that small and short period of time). The only downside I can think is killing the chance of network games.

Maybe Cosmos could modify graphics.library so WPA and chipmem-writing operations accumulate in fastram and only copy data to chipmem when display is finished and before next frame begins :-D
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Offline OldB0y

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #56 on: June 10, 2011, 05:58:27 PM »
Quote from: Crumb;643773
Add buffers to the volume and it will load quite a lot faster.


Yeah,  forgot to mention, I have a small launcher script that does that as well.  The game ran at about 1-2 FPS before installing the MMUlibs 68060.library and MuRedox, no matter what detail or screen size used. I also have BlazeWCP running as recommended by the authors.

Before using Add buffers the game was okayish but would jump a lot presumably as it was trying to load scenery etc. Now it does about 15FPS on high detail with everything turned on, and full screen size - it looks about as smooth as DoomAttack, and a fair bit smoother than 68k Quake.  I reckon it may be okay on an 040 as well using the MMU patch stuff, but haven't tried it.

Also, I couldn't find an icon for Duke3d, so as I was bored at the time, I created my own smallish but okay looking one from a jpeg of the original box front cover.  If anyone wants it, let me know and I'll pop it on Aminet etc
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Offline Cammy

Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #57 on: June 10, 2011, 07:24:35 PM »
I'm sure they have their reasons, but I don't find it funny. I wanted to help with advice and bug reports from testing software on my extensive range of Amiga systems but I can't do that if I'm being ignored.

I post on these forums to try and be helpful, not to socialise and pick on people like some of you do...
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Offline Cammy

Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #58 on: June 10, 2011, 07:26:02 PM »
Quote from: Kesa;643972
Bollocks. I challenge any wanker to Deathmatch anyday :cool:

Huh? Do people always just block you for no reason? Too funny! :roflmao:


I'm sure they have their reasons, but I don't find it funny. I wanted to help with advice and bug reports from testing software on my extensive range of Amiga systems but I can't do that if I'm being ignored.

I post on these forums to try and be helpful, not to socialise and pick on people like some of you do...
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Offline XDelusion

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Re: Duke Nukem 3D for amiga
« Reply #59 on: June 10, 2011, 07:31:13 PM »
I thought you were joking. I can't believe anyone would block you, you,be been nothing but kind and helpful! Plus you always share nice pics of your self. What's wrong with these people?
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