Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...

[lsmart]

The performance numbers don't lie.

Maybe they don´t, but some MorphOS fans claimed e.g. that you can´t watch DVDs on a SAM, beacause of the performance. Which works fine here out of the box. I get a decent framerate on my SAM. It was denied that you can edit video on OS4 with Blender. Which I did, although I must confess that it was terribly slow and you´d better get an X1000 for that (or even better - use MacOS Xs iMovie).

Even if MorphOS outshines on some measurements it doesn´t mean the alternatives don´t have their merits and you have to talk them down in order to look better.

[Kronos]

I
Because Piru knows that it is feasible.

And how would you know not only that it is feasible but also that Piru know it too ?

It's really just as feasible as a ColdFire-accel.
On 1st sight it seems trivial.
On 2nd sight it seems feasible.
Once you start impementing it you'll notice that you have to keep up of much more than you thought.
If you actually get it running it's performance will be dissapointing (Elbox's Dragon-proto peformt like a 020 and only ran preselected SW).

One has to remember what is the goal of EMUMiga, run x86 and 68k SW seamless, something which will only work if all API calls return the same results on both sides and if data is compatible. Problem is both sides expect the date to be sorted/orientied differently and thats where it end cos at one point you will into a situation where the OS/EMUmiga doesn't know wether a pointer points to an ULONG (change endians) or an array of BYTE (must keep the order).

Solution would be:
a) make an AROS where all data/structure are 100% identical to AOS68k not a big issue on bigendian HW, but a nightmare (and performance killer) on littleendian.
b) run a heavy MMU-setup monitoring all accesses to OS and 3rd-party structures. Also performance killing and by definition never complete.

Or c) Just use Janus-UAE and ignore the fact that you are running a 2nd OS hidden inside the emulation

Bout that UTube-clip, indeed not very funny but if thats enough to wind you up I'd recommed to grow some thicker skin.

I do remember avatars with characters peeing on an shooting at the MorphOS-butterfly (without anybody ever really bothering) or if you really insist I'm sure someone could post you to some rather nice ann.lu threads.... heck or just some more recent amigians.net ones ;(

Edit:
Or just this thread were someone claimed that a core MorphOS developer intentionally lied about the feasibilty of what one might consider a competing product.

[Piru]

Because Piru knows that it is feasible. It´s not easy and hobby coders won´t make it work, but its feasible.

I don't consider the current emuamiga feasible. While the author asserts that "Luckily, system friendly applications are often written in ways that are pretty easy to emulate." I beg to differ. In my opinion there are serious design issues with the current emuamiga.

Please note that I am not trying to discourage anyone here. I'm just giving my expert opinion.

[itix]

Because Piru knows that it is feasible. It´s not easy and hobby coders won´t make it work, but its feasible. The point is that neither AmigaOS nor MorphOS can support Intel chips without a major headache and AROS on first sight should have the same difficulties.

It has nothing to do with the hardware. It is only about endianess and sharing data between native and 68k applications.

But since AROS doesn´t have to care about the PPC stuff and old Amigas are comparatively slow and small they can get away with some things that wouldn´t work out for the other guys. If AROS can run on 68k, 68k can run on AROS.

Yes, I have seen UAE running on AROS. Now you can extend this so that you map Kickstart calls to native system and integrate it more. But if you wish to integrate it fully you have to figure out how to support PutMsg() (and anything remotely similar) between x86 and 68k components.

Because Piru knows that it is feasible. It´s not easy and hobby coders won´t make it work, but its feasible.

You mean by duplicating all system and 3rd party structures? But what if x86 application is going to write into structure maintained on the 68k side?

[amigadave]

Maybe they don´t, but some MorphOS fans claimed e.g. that you can´t watch DVDs on a SAM, beacause of the performance. Which works fine here out of the box. I get a decent framerate on my SAM. It was denied that you can edit video on OS4 with Blender. Which I did, although I must confess that it was terribly slow and you´d better get an X1000 for that (or even better - use MacOS Xs iMovie).

Even if MorphOS outshines on some measurements it doesn´t mean the alternatives don´t have their merits and you have to talk them down in order to look better.

I have never said that the alternatives don't have their own merits.  I have stated that I have considered buying AmigaOS4.1, but the cost to performance is just too steep for me right now, and I don't go around talking the alternative down in order to look better.

When criticized, or stupid polls come up asking which system is better, I state my opinion and the facts that back up my opinion.   I stand up for myself when attacked or ridiculed, but otherwise I try to promote cooperation between users and developers.   I know that the two opposing development teams will probably never work together, or even like each other (at least certain members), but that does not mean that the users and third party developers have to get sucked into the fight, or disagreements.  Just use what you like and be happy.

@kronos,

+1

[lsmart]

I don't consider the current emuamiga feasible.

So maybe I misunderstood you. I don´t know much about the current emuamiga design and it wouldn´t be the first thing to get a complete rewrite before it reaches version 1.

I don´t understand why others keep referencing 3rd party structures. If they are written for AmigaOS they won´t leave the emulation so their endianness doesn´t change. If they are written for AROS they won´t be needed fot the 68k binaries anyways. The only data that has to cross the emulation/system border is the data of standard 3.1 libraries and devices.

[Kronos]

And what would be the point of that ?

Seamless means seamless, under MorphOS (and OS4 too) one can install a newer/better PPC-lib/MUI-class and all 68k useing that lib/class will benefit.

One can also write PPC-apps that rely on 68k libs/classes (when there is no PPC version available).

If all you want is to run 68k apps with the pure OS3.x API (Janus)-UAE is the far better choice.

[Digiman]

I don't think that's even remotely the only answer. It's still possible that someone could come up with a more reasonable PPC-based system - it's not like the architecture is dead, it's just in a rough patch for consumer computing - but it's still holding its own in the supercomputer market, and more relevantly, in the console market. Who's to say it doesn't make a bit of a resurgence as far as cost-effectiveness goes?

There's also ARM, which is kicking more ass than ever before now that it's become the architecture of choice for mobile computing of any variety - it's already obliterated the competition in the mobile-phone and tablet markets, there's a few netbooks out there sporting it, and Apple's apparently moving its laptop line over (and quite possibly its desktops, who knows?) Even Microsoft is getting in on the act - and not just for mobile platforms. You could do a lot worse for a new AROS machine than a Tegra board, that's for sure.

And there's also the Amiga clone-upgrade projects - sure, Natami isn't going to be as inexpensive as an ARM system, but for those of us who really like the 68k, it's quite promising - and FPGA Arcade looks pretty encouraging, too. So no, x86 is hardly the only choice. And frankly, if most of the platforms still using it are the PCs that need it for compatibility (and even the one PC OS where that's a factor is exploring other avenues,) then it looks like x86 might very well be on the way to becoming legacy hardware itself, barring another change in the winds.

(That said, I do agree that OS4 is a dead end - Hyperion obviously have very little clue about even the market they're targeting, if their definition of "classic Amigas" is "classic Amigas with a PPC board." How many of us even have such a setup? At least MorphOS can be assed to make their OS run on more than that very particular subset of system configurations.)
I'm with you there, although I'd count NatAmi and FPGA Arcade if they turn out to be what they're looking to be. But I don't begrudge people who want a more powerful system running an Amiga-like OS.

PPC is far too expensive to achieve i7 cheap as chips speeds or value for money, and ARM is barely suitable for use as a netbook IMO

X86 is the only mass produced CPU we have, that's not to say you can't build a clever bespoke motherboard that isn't identical to hardware layout of PC motherboard. Think of Xbox 1 vs Pentium III 700mhz PC. Radical difference in design and hence performance there really, and cost/performance too.

[Digiman]

I use OS 4.1.  I use MorphOS.  Neither can do anything that my cell phone or tablet cannot do, sorry.  If you are looking to raise Christ in Amiga form and find a cross, blue or red - you're 20 years too late.  

Quite, Amiga had revolutionary cutting edge in price/performance and ultimate ability underpinning the whole thing. The OS was a very nice big juicy cherry on an exceptionally sumptuous and morish cake!

Unless the same sort of intelligence that gave us the PPC based Xbox 360 motherboard appears on the Amiga scene and fast it is a dead end. The ingredients have been there all along since 2007 but all we get is expensive complicated systems like x1000 and SAM 460 .............. *pass*

The software alone can not fight back against the sheer number crunching power available to people running code on super computer levels of performance on the latest i7 or AMD Thunderbird chips. FACT.

[commodorejohn]

PPC is far too expensive to achieve i7 cheap as chips speeds or value for money, and ARM is barely suitable for use as a netbook IMO

It's true that PPC is currently not cost-effective for desktop computing - but if things continue such that all three major console platforms are based on it, that's a fair bit of money flowing and an incentive to continue to improve it. And ARM is indeed still lagging behind x86 for desktop use, but it's rapidly catching up to the Atom line. And both of these have the advantage of being native RISC architectures, not CISC architectures run in emulation on a RISC microarchitecture. They might not be optimal solutions now, but that doesn't mean they might not be in the near future.

X86 is the only mass produced CPU we have

Uhh...what?

The software alone can not fight back against the sheer number crunching power available to people running code on super computer levels of performance on the latest i7 or AMD Thunderbird chips. FACT.

So who says it needs to? This stupid power-computing dick-measuring contest with platforms that have far more money and research effort pouring into them is the single biggest reason NG Amiga hardware has never gotten anywhere. This community needs to get over its massive inferiority complex once and for all.

[itix]

The only data that has to cross the emulation/system border is the data of standard 3.1 libraries and devices.

Which fails to work when 68k native application PutMsg() to your AROS native filesystem.

[Karlos]

I can't speak for anybody else, but IMHO, variety is the spice of life. I'd hate to see either OS4, MorphOS or AROS fall by the wayside.

I've always wished I had the time and sufficiently in-depth knowledge of each platform to build a common runtime for deploying applications across them all without having to sacrifice too much in striving for the least common denominator. I realise, for example, that MUI and Zune work very differently to Reaction but in all honesty, there's no implementation difference between them (or indeed almost any GUI system) so great that the appropriate application of design patterns couldn't abstract it.

[redfox]

I would like to thank all parties for their efforts to continue the "Amiga" experience.

Cheers to those users who have continued using their Classic Amiga systems.  My A2000HD still runs, but I do not use it as much as I did in the past.  I purchased my A2000HD in about 1989.

Since the end of 2004, I have been using my PPC system more than my classic system.

All the best.
---
redfox

[vidarh]

Which fails to work when 68k native application PutMsg() to your AROS native filesystem.

Why would it? In that case the message format is well known and easy to proxy.

The only problem with PutMsg() would be message formats Emumiga doesn't know about and where it is ambiguous whether or not a specific value should have the endianness changed or not.

If planning to support arbitrary *new* m68k software calling arbitrary *new* AROS code, this might be an issue, but what would be the point of supporting that? If only supporting m68k software interacting only with AROS versions of software available for 3.1, then the set of possible software is for all intents and purposes pretty much finite and unchanging and it's just a matter of how adding mappings as/when problems are found with specific applications.

I won't speculate about whether or not current Emumiga does it the right way, as I haven't read the code, but this is by no means an unsolvable problem.

[vidarh]

X86 is the only mass produced CPU we have

If you mean to claim that it's the only mass produced desktop CPU we have it might open for discussion, but to claim it's the only mass produced CPU is flat out wrong.

Even if we were to pretend that MIPS, SuperH and PowerPC doesn't exist for various reasons, there's still ARM, which sells is vastly greater quantities than x86.

[hairy]

cat

@Most MOS users

I for one won't ever accept MOS as an AmigaOS for the future and the reason are simply because of the behaviour from the people who runs it. It seems like lots of you got serious issues and I'm not even joking, not even a little. [...]

You act like hooligans of Amiga-like operating systems. Now that is a new level of being geeky.

I wouldn't mind MOS very much if it wasn't for the people using it, there really are some twisted minds using those computers.

[...]

Finally... do you think that someone outside of this community gets interested in runing MOS reading that crap? Unless there are more of the same kind... good people to get in the community, spending all day long writing crap on the web.

| sed 's/MOS/OS4\.x/g'