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Offline hairy

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #179 from previous page: May 23, 2011, 09:47:15 PM »
cat
Quote from: HotRod;639658
@Most MOS users

I for one won't ever accept MOS as an AmigaOS for the future and the reason are simply because of the behaviour from the people who runs it. It seems like lots of you got serious issues and I'm not even joking, not even a little. [...]

You act like hooligans of Amiga-like operating systems. Now that is a new level of being geeky.

I wouldn't mind MOS very much if it wasn't for the people using it, there really are some twisted minds using those computers.

[...]

Finally... do you think that someone outside of this community gets interested in runing MOS reading that crap? Unless there are more of the same kind... good people to get in the community, spending all day long writing crap on the web.
| sed 's/MOS/OS4\.x/g'
 

Offline Moggen

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #180 on: May 23, 2011, 11:23:35 PM »
Quote from: vidarh;639809
If planning to support arbitrary *new* m68k software calling arbitrary *new* AROS code, this might be an issue, but what would be the point of supporting that? If only supporting m68k software interacting only with AROS versions of software available for 3.1, then the set of possible software is for all intents and purposes pretty much finite and unchanging and it's just a matter of how adding mappings as/when problems are found with specific applications.
Exactly the point! Emumiga is intended for old binary-only stuff. New applications are hopefully open sourced and/or running natively on x86 AROS.
Emumiga relies totally on that AROS is implementing AmigaOS3.1 close enough. So, if AROS moves in a direction where it is forced to abandon some of the old APIs I'm basically screwed. I think that is the biggest risk in the long run.
Quote from: vidarh;639809
I won't speculate about whether or not current Emumiga does it the right way, as I haven't read the code, but this is by no means an unsolvable problem.
A believer! Thank you. :-)
 

Offline smerf

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #181 on: May 23, 2011, 11:35:29 PM »
Hi,

@Amigadave,

I sort of think that they are all bad apples.

smerf
I have no idea what your talking about, so here is a doggy with a small pancake on his head.

MorphOS is a MAC done a little better
 

Offline itix

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #182 on: May 23, 2011, 11:36:16 PM »
Quote from: vidarh;639809
Why would it? In that case the message format is well known and easy to proxy.


So you are going to write wrappers for every known file system packet out there? Fine. Dont forget filesystem hooks, though. What are you going to do if someone wants to execute 68k native code in the filesystem context? Thanks to (maybe not so clever) AmigaOS 2.0 improvements it can be done...

And we are only at DOS. Lets play a little with my favorite MUI/Zune. This monster allows executing event hooks inside UI code. If you wish to use native Zune here you have to add wrappers for all hooks from 68k side. It can be actually done (I have done it... for another project...) but real fun starts when you wish to support custom classing. Zune objects are actually nothing but data structures. Parent and child objects (which could be 68k or AROS code, you never know) are called via DoMethod() calls. And DoMethod() call is not an OS call but it is simple call in amiga.lib or inlined to application so you can not easily trap calls to AROS code. I dont know how AROS implements DoMethod() so it could be easy to trap calls to 68k code again... and it will be slow because on every context switch you dont have to change only one data structure but data of every object in Zune application (objects have pointers to other objects so every referenced object must be translated to right endianess).

(Needless to say it will be much easier have one native Zune implementation and another Zune implementation for 68k applications.)

Quote

The only problem with PutMsg() would be message formats Emumiga doesn't know about and where it is ambiguous whether or not a specific value should have the endianness changed or not.


One could send a dos packet where data is the packet structure itself...

Quote

If planning to support arbitrary *new* m68k software calling arbitrary *new* AROS code, this might be an issue, but what would be the point of supporting that?


The 68k code will never know is it calling 68k or native AROS code. It just assumes everything is 68k.

Thanks to OS 2.0 API design 68k code could be executed virtually everywhere in AROS userland. You can have filesystem hooks, you can have layer hooks, you can have input handlers, you can have interrupt handlers. The system also allows peeking into system lists, library bases, initialize system structures your own and modify them at will. You can edit your message port structure and changes are immediate.

Quote

If only supporting m68k software interacting only with AROS versions of software available for 3.1, then the set of possible software is for all intents and purposes pretty much finite and unchanging and it's just a matter of how adding mappings as/when problems are found with specific applications.


What I am afraid that when you add mapping for one data structure it contains pointer to another data structure you have to map as well.

Quote

I won't speculate about whether or not current Emumiga does it the right way, as I haven't read the code, but this is by no means an unsolvable problem.


If we had unlimited resources we would have conquered the stars already :-P
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline itix

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #183 on: May 23, 2011, 11:38:17 PM »
Quote from: Moggen;639823
Exactly the point! Emumiga is intended for old binary-only stuff. New applications are hopefully open sourced and/or running natively on x86 AROS.
Emumiga relies totally on that AROS is implementing AmigaOS3.1 close enough.


Does it work with applications using BOOPSI subclassing?
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline HotRod

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #184 on: May 24, 2011, 12:28:37 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;639728
Someone please point out to me in this thread where the mud slinging started and who started it.

I did not notice anything overtly offensive until HotRod threw in his offensive remarks about "Most MorphOS users", which I got defensive about, since I am one of those MorphOS users and I gave my truthful opinion about what I have observed here and elsewhere.  It has nothing to do with me wanting HotRod to agree with everything I say or write.  I don't expect the AmigaOS4.x users to agree with the choices that I have made, or my opinions about what is best, but performance numbers and feature count has favored MorphOS2.x above AmigaOS4.x and AROS forever.  Those are hard cold facts and since the most obnoxious of the AmigaOS4.x users don't like those facts being pointed out on any forums, they usually resort to any other means to try to degrade MorphOS and call it names like children, because they have no other way to make themselves feel good about the choice they have made to use AmigaOS4.x instead of MorphOS2.x.

HotRod made it to my "ignore list" because he was writing complete crap and seems to actually believe it, or is just a troll, not because I disagree with his opinions and choices.  I have lots of friends that use AmigaOS4.x and I have no problem with them and their choices.  Re-read HotRod's first message in this thread and honestly tell me you think it was warranted by any other message from any MorphOS user in this thread and please explain why.  I would love to read that kind of assessment, if it is really objective and truthful and not just more trolling by anyone.

I don't have anything personal against AmigaOS4.x and would buy and use it, if it weren't tied to such expensive hardware that is so underpowered.  I also don't like some of the questionable behavior of some of the partners/owners of Hyperion in the past, but could overlook that if they had a better product at a better price, on better hardware.


No, not a troll, never have been and never will be. What about you?

Once again you went there... cocky attitude about MOS. It isn't even at all related. I bet you can't say "good morning" to your girlfriend (or mom or whoever) without adding "oh and MOS is the fastest OS out there and runs on Mac hardware". Also not all MOS users wrote to me since, like I wrote and you already have frogotten it seems, it wasn't aimed at every MOS user (missed that part?). I mean if you even miss what I just wrote how can anyone take anything you write seriously? You can even read exactly what I wrote as you type if you wish and even then it isn't true.

"but performance numbers and feature count has favored MorphOS2.x above AmigaOS4.x and AROS forever"... yeah I remember that test. "Forever"? In what way is it "forever"? It is one test talking about a specific version of AOS 4 and a specific version of MOS. You don't know if that will be true forever either unless you're some kind of psychic. Now I never see statement like that from AROS or AOS 4 users either.

You suddenly call me a troll when I express my honest opinion that enyone can relate to that has followed the threads and news items on the sites that I listed. In what way am I the troll and you're not? Can you even reply without writing some silly propaganda about MOS?

Another reason for acting that way could perhaps be that you've choosen the MOS way, realised that it was wrong but are too proud to admit it. Either way, that is your problem in that case.

Finally you write an answer that is not true with the same old crap that some MOS users allways writes when I'm not at this site any more. Talking crap behind my back in other words. Now that is really low behaviour. No I don't see OS 4 users treating the operating system as a religion but when it comes to you I do, you can't write a single statement without braging about MOS. What kind of issues do you have? No seriously? Why do you complain about AOS 4 being run on expensive hardware, is it your issue when you don't even want to run it since you think that it is crap anyway? The obvious answer is that you can buy a new computer instead of a used mac with limited VRAM and no HDMI. My guess is that your jealous (yes I think that most insults that you throw around you are what you yourself are feeling) and you can't be honest about it. That is childish to try and punish people for not being in that situation. Like it's my fault that you have to run MOS on a Mac... no really, what are you THINKING?

And before you write anything about me insulting MOS or you maybe you can see how I DEFEND myself or rather AOS 4 because YOU brought it up. I didn't spend time writing down MOS which are easy to do by the way. It isn't anymore perfect than AOS 4, not in my eyes. To me there are no perfect OS either but the one I prefer is AOS 4 and thanks to people like you I don't care very much about MOS at all.

FYI I had plans to install it on my PowerMac if it gets released but all that will remind me of are all the crap that some MOS users writes all the time and as a result from that I will probably just see every single issue it has instead of enjoying it. Good work dude.
 

Offline FrankoTopic starter

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #185 on: May 24, 2011, 02:23:24 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;639766
When criticized, or stupid polls come up asking which system is better, I state my opinion and the facts that back up my opinion.   I stand up for myself when attacked or ridiculed, but otherwise I try to promote cooperation between users and developers.


I find it odd that you've always considered other folks polls as stupid as you always liked to point out to me last year when I posted a number of polls that strangely enough basically covered the same topics which your current polls are based on... ;)

I know you wont be reading this as I am on your ignore list but pray tell why do you regard other folks polls as stupid (especially on the same subject as yours) yet your polls are not... :confused:
 

Offline HotRod

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #186 on: May 24, 2011, 02:56:10 AM »
Quote from: Duce;639689
I use OS 4.1.  I use MorphOS.  Neither can do anything that my cell phone or tablet cannot do, sorry.  If you are looking to raise Christ in Amiga form and find a cross, blue or red - you're 20 years too late.  Many of you taking sides have not done yourself the favor of trying everything available.  I use an OS4/Morph/AROS machine daily, that being said.

We are hobby folks, using said OS's for fun.  I like both Morph and OS4, but I am not delusional enough to think that they are "next gen" and are going to storm the market.  No one buys a SAM to replace a Mac or PC, and same goes for MorphOS/legacy Macs.  You use the things cause they "take you back", and they are fun.  Quit pissing and moaning and picking nits.  I own a SAM, a Mac mini running Morph, and an AROS box.  End result - when I want to watch a youtube video quick, or check gmail - I grab my tablet.  The market has shifted.  The computers we grew up on, held dear and were extremely proud to know inside and out have been replaced by "appliance devices".  People grab the best tool for the job.

A mantra, whether it be Amiga OS's variants or mac/win/linux stuff.

Use what you like.  Use all you can.  Know what works best for you, and also know that what works best for you likely doesn't work the best for the next guy.  Have fun, and try and let the modern computer folks know that we didn't all wake up one day with 3ghz PC's.  Respect your roots, and the roots of others.


I agree with what you write but there are a little thing that I'd like to add. I use a PC with Win 7 most of the time these days. If I had a KVM switch (I will get one) I would probably use my AmigaOne more but other than that I use it for the things that you mentioned and games. However there are room for a better OS since the usage of AOS are more pleasant (I would even say much more) than Windows has ever been. That's why I upgraded my a4k during the 90s and early 2000 untill I bought the AmigaOne. I couldn't stand Windows, I always found something that annoyed me, actually several things. With Windows 7 I can stand it still got issues and runing AOS 4 is like a breath of fresh air, it just feels so much better.

What I really miss though except for software are hardware related. The fun that you had back in the day because of the superiour hardware sin't there any more. However the way you did things in AOS was often much more fun than doing it on any other computer because lots of software had really good ideas making them simple and fun to use, yet powerfull bringing out the creative side.

While lots of the devices that you mentioned are great and powerfull there isn't any fun to be had with them when it comes to creativity, they are more like tools to me. Windows kind of feel the same actually, to me at least.

Anyway, the point is that there are more than nostalgic reasons to run any of the amiga-like operating systems. There are simply room for a better experience. I think that's the whole point actually. To me AOS are as close to being perfect as it gets. It lacks lots of things that are better in for example Windows 7 but it isn't as anoying.

I think the long term goal is to grow, for any of these systems and it isn't impossible it will just take lots of time. If it will work out in the end is another thing though but I've decided to just have fun during this ride and see what happens.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #187 on: May 24, 2011, 04:06:47 AM »
Quote from: HotRod;639847
I agree with what you write but there are a little thing that I'd like to add. I use a PC with Win 7 most of the time these days. If I had a KVM switch (I will get one) I would probably use my AmigaOne more but other than that I use it for the things that you mentioned and games. However there are room for a better OS since the usage of AOS are more pleasant (I would even say much more) than Windows has ever been. That's why I upgraded my a4k during the 90s and early 2000 untill I bought the AmigaOne. I couldn't stand Windows, I always found something that annoyed me, actually several things. With Windows 7 I can stand it still got issues and runing AOS 4 is like a breath of fresh air, it just feels so much better.

What I really miss though except for software are hardware related. The fun that you had back in the day because of the superiour hardware sin't there any more. However the way you did things in AOS was often much more fun than doing it on any other computer because lots of software had really good ideas making them simple and fun to use, yet powerfull bringing out the creative side.

While lots of the devices that you mentioned are great and powerfull there isn't any fun to be had with them when it comes to creativity, they are more like tools to me. Windows kind of feel the same actually, to me at least.

Anyway, the point is that there are more than nostalgic reasons to run any of the amiga-like operating systems. There are simply room for a better experience. I think that's the whole point actually. To me AOS are as close to being perfect as it gets. It lacks lots of things that are better in for example Windows 7 but it isn't as anoying.

I think the long term goal is to grow, for any of these systems and it isn't impossible it will just take lots of time. If it will work out in the end is another thing though but I've decided to just have fun during this ride and see what happens.

My, this whole thread has gotten unnecessarily ugly and contentious. I use MorphOS because it works well and the necessary investment in hardware is lower.
If it didn't exist I'd probably be using AROS.
AOS4 hardware is just too expensive for me to justify. But those of you who want to go that route have my blessing.
Frankly it all part of the same market to me and I'm not going to allow someone else's passion for a similar OS (almost identical) overwhelm me.
This whole thread's gotten quite inane.
"Not making any hard and fast rules means that the moderators can use their good judgment in moderation, and we think the results speak for themselves." - Amiga.org, terms of service

"You, got to stem the evil tide, and keep it on the the inside" - Rogers Waters

"God was never on your side" - Lemmy

Amiga! "Our appeal has become more selective"
 

Offline FrankoTopic starter

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #188 on: May 24, 2011, 04:11:51 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;639863
This whole thread's gotten quite inane.


And you've only just noticed that... ;)
 

Offline HotRod

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #189 on: May 24, 2011, 04:44:24 AM »
Quote from: Iggy;639863
My, this whole thread has gotten unnecessarily ugly and contentious. I use MorphOS because it works well and the necessary investment in hardware is lower.
If it didn't exist I'd probably be using AROS.
AOS4 hardware is just too expensive for me to justify. But those of you who want to go that route have my blessing.
Frankly it all part of the same market to me and I'm not going to allow someone else's passion for a similar OS (almost identical) overwhelm me.
This whole thread's gotten quite inane.


I guess that you somehow got insulted because I wrote so much about AOS 4 but that's simply becaue that is what I run when I want to use something AOS related. I've also tried AROS under VirtualBox in Windblows.

The point however was that there are room for a better experience than Windows offers (or Linux or MacOS). Then if it is AROS, MOS or AOS that brings that experience, that's another thing.

Get the point?
 

Offline vidarh

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #190 on: May 24, 2011, 09:41:48 AM »
Quote from: itix;639827
So you are going to write wrappers for every known file system packet out there? Fine. Dont forget filesystem hooks, though. What are you going to do if someone wants to execute 68k native code in the filesystem context?


No, I'd suggest supporting the known packets *with known uses* by *known apps that people still care about*. There aren't all that many, and the mapping is fairly mechanical and can to some extent be automated (you'd need to describe the fields, but there's no need to manually write all the code).

As for handling the hooks, again, why do you think this is even a problem? It is no different from handling any other part of the system - you need to trap any attempted read/writes from/to the "host" and translate appropriately. Tedious, sure, but not much more.

But more importantly, since the number of possible applications is small and finite, if there are any particularly troublesome applications you can add workarounds for that specific application.

This is a shortcut for rewriting a subset of applications - it doesn't need to be perfect. It needs to work for the m68k applications a reasonable number of people still care about and where it's not easier to port an existing alternative application instead. For the rest there's UAE.

I think a lot of those of you that think this is so hard are massively overestimating the scope of this.

We don't need Emumiga to be able to run every legal m68k Amiga app - the only reason to do that would be just to say you can -, just ones already in existence. We don't need Emumiga to even be able to run all of the ones in existence, only the ones that people want to be able to run regularly on AROS with tight integration.

For apps that people rarely if ever run or want to run other than the occasional trip for nostalgia and/or that doesn't need any form of integration (like most games and demos), there's no point - Janus UAE is sufficient.

This isn't like Wine where there are millions of apps that people want to to run, and where tons of apps are still actively developed for the Win32 API that are not being made available for Linux, and that drives people to want and expect Wine to run "everything" (even then: I for one have noticed how the interest in Wine has waned since virtualization meant that people increasingly only care about Windows apps that they want tightly integrated with the rest of their desktop)

There are "only" about 30000 m68k archives on Aminet that are even *potential* candidates (when you've excluded MOD's, demos etc.). Beyond that there are a few thousand commercial applications at most. I don't know how many of those are still interesting enough to care.  Games (barring possible "workbench games") are outside the scope of Emumiga.

My guess is that 5000 packages that would be even worthwhile for Emumiga to target would be seriously overestimating it, given that a ton of those 30000 either won't be code, will be various old versions, utilities that plain doesn't make any sense anymore, apps that nobody uses, apps that are open source and better handled by porting/recompiling for AROS etc., or apps that have already been ported.

There's no doubt Emumiga will be a lot of work, but even if you have to add manual workarounds for a lot of the applications in the "interesting" set, it'd still be feasible.

Quote

Parent and child objects (which could be 68k or AROS code, you never know) are called via DoMethod() calls. And DoMethod() call is not an OS call but it is simple call in amiga.lib or inlined to application so you can not easily trap calls to AROS code.


It's fairly simple to automatically create thunks to handle this. I've written enough compilers with custom object systems to have done far nastier things than that.

Quote

and it will be slow because on every context switch you dont have to change only one data structure but data of every object in Zune application (objects have pointers to other objects so every referenced object must be translated to right endianess).


Since the m68k side is emulated, you can easily lazily mutate data first when it's actually needed on the m68k side. Will it be slower than "just" emulating everything in UAE? Maybe, but frankly it doesn't matter with the performance of modern x86 hardware.
 

Offline FrankoTopic starter

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #191 on: May 24, 2011, 10:02:21 AM »
Quote from: vidarh;639921
We don't need Emumiga to be able to run every legal m68k Amiga app - the only reason to do that would be just to say you can -, just ones already in existence. We don't need Emumiga to even be able to run all of the ones in existence, only the ones that people want to be able to run regularly on AROS with tight integration.

For apps that people rarely if ever run or want to run other than the occasional trip for nostalgia and/or that doesn't need any form of integration (like most games and demos), there's no point - Janus UAE is sufficient.
There are "only" about 30000 m68k archives on Aminet that are even *potential* candidates (when you've excluded MOD's, demos etc.). Beyond that there are a few thousand commercial applications at most. I don't know how many of those are still interesting enough to care.  Games (barring possible "workbench games") are outside the scope of Emumiga.

My guess is that 5000 packages that would be even worthwhile for Emumiga to target would be seriously overestimating it, given that a ton of those 30000 either won't be code, will be various old versions, utilities that plain doesn't make any sense anymore, apps that nobody uses, apps that are open source and better handled by porting/recompiling for AROS etc., or apps that have already been ported.


Hmm... not sure why you think that no-one still uses all these old apps anymore, I do, every day... :)

I very rarely play games on the Amiga and use it on daily basis for everything I need computing wise gfx, DTP, audio etc... :)

So I'm not sure if what your saying is that AROS can't handle such basic things as all these old apps or are simply saying that they would be better re-written or re-compiled to run under AROS. In which case I'm back to doubting if AROS in it's 68K form would indeed be the best way forward...:confused:
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #192 on: May 24, 2011, 10:12:13 AM »
If I may jump in for a moment!

The Emumiga concept was discussed and rejected in favour of an integrated UAE, which is the "official" 68k compatibility route that has been taken. But let us NOT forget AROS is a research operating system, and that makes projects like Emumiga really bloody exciting!

I'm wondering if the ideal solution would be some kind of Hybrid... With both a translation layer and complete 68k parts of AROS running in the Emumiga environment. It's things like this that both excite and inspire, and that's the point :)

Offline jakov

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #193 on: May 24, 2011, 10:13:20 AM »
Remember, AROS is two main things.

AROS x86 (where Emumiga could help people run m68k Amiga HUNK binaries.)
AROS m68k, which aims for 100 % 3.1 compatibility on Commodore Amiga machines. They even have tentative plans for supporting 1.x stuff which does not work on 3.x ...
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Which OS Would Be The Best Amiga Way Forward...
« Reply #194 on: May 24, 2011, 10:24:50 AM »
Quote from: Franko;639922
Hmm... not sure why you think that no-one still uses all these old apps anymore, I do, every day... :)

I very rarely play games on the Amiga and use it on daily basis for everything I need computing wise gfx, DTP, audio etc... :)

So I'm not sure if what your saying is that AROS can't handle such basic things as all these old apps or are simply saying that they would be better re-written or re-compiled to run under AROS. In which case I'm back to doubting if AROS in it's 68K form would indeed be the best way forward...:confused:
Issues are getting confussed here.

AROS 68k will run your 68K apps just fine. The main thread now is that Emumiga will only ever run a subset of 68k apps within the AROS x86 environment... But that isn't really a problem as we already have a transparent UAE for running 68k Apps in AROS on other CPUs.

Emumiga is an experiment, an interesting idea that keeps people like me, who are fascinated by weird experimental concepts, interested in the platform. :)