AmigaOS 4.1 Classic Available To Buy

[Nearly-Right]

I use the latest MKIII FastATA in my A1200T in the office.  When installing OS 4.1, the FastATA was immediately recognised and utilised- there was no need to install any drivers.   AmigaOS 4.1 Classic is supplied with FastATA MKIII Prefs in the Prefs drawer.

OK, that's great news, as it was more of a nuisance trying to get it working under Classic OS4.0, even though I didn't get much use out of that OS release.

At home on my A1200T, I have an original FastATA MKI ("Powerflyer-Gold Edition"), I had to manually install the original 68k drivers for this as this product was last officially supported by Elbox in 2005.

But good to know it still offers the additional IDE ports even under OS4.1.

As for printer drivers, I recently bought a new HP printer and used the standard AmigaOS HP Printer Driver and it worked immediately: because HPs have a common printer language.

I believe the common printer language in HP printers is PCL (Printer Command Language) as well as PS (PostScript) though they have moved through various versions of PCL over the years, but I believe the backwards level of compatibility is still very good.

However, HP have changed some of their printers of recent years to be host based printers, which means you have to have the software designed for the operating system you want to use the printer with, i.e. an Operating System driver intended for that platform such as Windows or Macintosh, in the main, or you'll get nothing out of the printer, which means that PCL, and even PostScript is not supported in those products, such as the HP 3550 Color Laserjet - no PCL or PostScript printing capability.

There are other HP, and other manufacturers, printers that we should all be aware of with those limitations and not buy a printer that won't work under Amiga OS as there's no driver for it, which is the reason I mention that there are no new printer drivers with OS4.1 which is an area that needs urgent attention, IMHO.

Just avoid printers that are software driven such as Lexmark inkjets etc.

OK, thanks for that info

Also OS 4.1 contains a native port of Ghostscript which can be used to print to any printers that are PostScript compatible.

 

That's handy, but I don't suppose many people own a PostScript capable printer, even though I do. We shouldn't forget that TurboPrint 7 offers "PS" printing which will enable Ghostscript to print the data via that Postscript function even to non PostScript printers, and I believe Turboprint 7 works under OS4.1 so that's good.

Expecting printer driver support for new printers that arrive onto the market every few months is unrealistic due to the developer resources that would be required.

I think you've tried to escape the real point as there is NO NEW PRINTER support in OS4.1 as far as I am aware, so it's not like there has been some work done in OS4.1 to provide up-to-date printer functionality as there is NOTHING NEW in that area of the OS, but please correct me if I'm wrong there, as I'd really like to know there is something new.

What's more, rather than say it's unrealistic - all the development time for OS4.x to get so far, 2003 to 2011 - 8 years approximately, has gained us NOTHING NEW in the printer area, which is the truth of the matter. Not even Turboprint 7 has been updated in a good few years.

[Karlos]

What's more, rather than say it's unrealistic - all the development time for OS4.x to get so far, 2003 to 2011 - 8 years approximately, has gained us NOTHING NEW in the printer area, which is the truth of the matter. Not even Turboprint 7 has been updated in a good few years.

You could always have a go at porting CUPS

[Nearly-Right]

You could always have a go at porting CUPS

That's like pointing the finger of blame at me for not updating the OS4.x printing system, when I'd have hoped the OS4.x development team would have been considering/implementing some update to the printing system, seeing as it forms an integral part of any OS.

That's also nice of you to ask me, someone not involved in the development of OS4.x, to have a crack at it

But hey, that's just the way I look at it, seeing as I am a prospective customer. I'll just learn C and C++, etc. and write my own OS, then pay myself to buy it, with a little extra added on top as profit, nice!!

I'd just like to see a fully formed Classic OS4.x, with some up-to-date printer support that should have been added, even if it was only for 2 or 3 new printers, but having said that it's hard to find a new Centronics based printer these days.

However, with USB support built into Classic OS4.1, merely owning a USB adapter card would be the only requirement for new printer support to be realised.

[Karlos]

That's like pointing the finger of blame at me for not updating the OS4.x printing system, when I'd have hoped the OS4.x development team would have been considering/implementing some update to the printing system, seeing as it forms an integral part of any OS.

The whole reason tools like TurboPrint existed in the first place is that historically the built-in AmigaOS printer support was a bit bobbins. Was OS printing support ever a dealbreaker for you previously?

I'll just learn C and C++, etc.

You say that like it would be a bad thing...

[Nearly-Right]

The whole reason tools like TurboPrint existed in the first place is that historically the built-in AmigaOS printer support was a bit bobbins.

I agree, the original printing system in the Amiga OS was not very good, as it was more of a games console, and back then colour printing was not really possible other than ribbon colour dot-matrix printers and that was sometime after the first Amigas were released, and mainly then, in any case, games were king.

Was OS printing support ever a dealbreaker for you previously?

There were always new printers supported for OS1.3, then when OS2.x came along more printers were supported, the same for OS3.x, but now no new printer drivers in OS4.x.

So where does this part of the chain of printer support in OS development breakdown? The answer I unfortunately already know is OS4.x.

So to answer your question, it was never a question of printer support being a deal breaker before, because it was always supported before, but this is the first OS with no new printer support.

I don't think I am being unreasonable to ask for some new support, I think the wait, and changes in availability of printers requires it, as printers don't last forever, and supplies for some old Centronics printers are no longer available, as you must already be aware of.

It's no good pointing the finger at me, it's the OS that's lacking in this department, and it really could do with sorting out, pronto.

You say that like it would be a bad thing...

I'd like to be able to program, it's just the learning curve, and I can't just write a printer driver without that programming knowledge, but that also requires specific knowledge of how printer drivers work, and how the hardware works that I would need to support it, no easy task for a beginner.

Fancy having a go yourself?

[eliyahu]

I'd just like to see a fully formed Classic OS4.x, with some up-to-date printer support that should have been added, even if it was only for 2 or 3 new printers, but having said that it's hard to find a new Centronics based printer these days.

However, with USB support built into Classic OS4.1, merely owning a USB adapter card would be the only requirement for new printer support to be realised.

that's something i think most OS4 users would like to see.  the development team changes over time, and, frankly, the printing subsystem is really old.  that said there have been improvements to it, and you'd be surprised what is possible.

for example i purchased an officejet j6480 last year and it works brilliantly.  in fact, coupled with lpr.device and the photosmart driver, i've been using it just as i would from my linux, solaris, and windows machines.

hyperion and the development team are aware of the shortcomings in the printing system and are looking to leverage CUPS as the basis for a new printing system in the immediate future.  based on conversations at amiwest, the priorities are: supporting new and classic systems, a new 3D stack based on openGL and gallium 3D, a new printing system based on CUPS, finally finishing long-outstanding components (such as the updated console.device and USB stack), and substantial changes to execSG to support SMP.

i'd love to have better printer support now, but it's coming.

-- eliyahu

[Nearly-Right]

that's something i think most OS4 users would like to see.  the development team changes over time, and, frankly, the printing subsystem is really old.  that said there have been improvements to it, and you'd be surprised what is possible.

At last, an agreement that the printer system is past-its-sell-by-date.

for example i purchased an officejet j6480 last year and it works brilliantly.  in fact, coupled with lpr.device and the photosmart driver, i've been using it just as i would from my linux, solaris, and windows machines.

Is the OfficeJet J6480 a PCL based printer?

hyperion and the development team are aware of the shortcomings in the printing system and are looking to leverage CUPS as the basis for a new printing system in the immediate future.

That's encouraging, but how long is this piece of string, if you know?

based on conversations at amiwest, the priorities are: supporting new and classic systems, a new 3D stack based on openGL and gallium 3D, a new printing system based on CUPS, finally finishing long-outstanding components (such as the updated console.device and USB stack), and substantial changes to execSG to support SMP.

OK, so why has no-one mentiioned these printing system parts of the OS as having been discussed, as areas for updating, to interested potential Classic OS4.x users, and other newer hardware ACube owners before, as this is the first time I've heard it mentioned by anyone connected with the development of the Amiga OS.

Good communications might keep people more interested if they knew you were still discussing developing more sections of the OS that have over the years of development fallen behind.

i'd love to have better printer support now, but it's coming. -- eliyahu

But when? Do we have to wait a year or more for that printer support?

I do appreciate you updating this thread with that information, as I've been trying to find out such information for some time now, so I'm glad you have mentioned it.

[Karlos]

I'd like to be able to program, it's just the learning curve, and I can't just write a printer driver without that programming knowledge, but that also requires specific knowledge of how printer drivers work, and how the hardware works that I would need to support it, no easy task for a beginner.

Fancy having a go yourself?

As it happens, I aready am working on some stuff I want to see improved support for which is likely to keep me occupied for a while.

[eliyahu]

At last, an agreement that the printer system is past-its-sell-by-date.

Is the OfficeJet J6480 a PCL based printer?

yup.  it supports both PCL and postscript.  so it's not a good example per se since we've had those drivers for eons -- but i wanted to demonstrate it is still possible to support recent printers nonetheless.

That's encouraging, but how long is this piece of string, if you know?

i wish i knew! :lol:

at amiwest the discussion of developing the new printing system around CUPS was part of ben's talks.  i don't recall there being much detail about schedule, implementation specifics, etc.  there is a post of his talk over on youtube and on robert's video site. in truth i'd like to see more than just hyperion working on getting the imaging situation on OS4 improved.  a modern printing infrastructure coupled with (finally) finishing a native pagestream5 and an OS4-native version of arteffect would be wonderful and a selling point not just for classic users.

OK, so why has no-one mentiioned these printing system parts of the OS as having been discussed, as areas for updating, to interested potential Classic OS4.x users, and other newer hardware ACube owners before, as this is the first time I've heard it mentioned by anyone connected with the development of the Amiga OS.

Good communications might keep people more interested if they knew you were still discussing developing more sections of the OS that have over the years of development fallen behind.

hmmm.  well everyone at AWN knew about this from various show reports; but it's true that, beyond ben's talk at amiwest, there hasn't been much on this via official channels.  that said i really do think communication has improved substantially over the past nine months.  a full-court press at amiwest, the developers' blog, more public participation in the forums (particularly AWN and amigans.net).... it's not ideal, but it is getting better and i think the hyperion folks really do 'get it' that a good communications channel is essential to keeping folks interested.

i adore using OS4 on my SAM, and i really think it is a very enjoyable hobby.  there are certainly some shortcomings, such as the printing subsystem, and it does no harm to discuss them openly.  that's how things get changed.  i think the hesitation in others to talk about known issues stems from folks using them as an excuse to start bashing OS4, hyperion, ben hermans, pick your favorite.

in any case i look forward to update3 and beyond. :hammer:

-- eliyahu

[Iggy]

Wow! Its nice to know that OS4 users are faced with a similar dilemma.
MorphOS doesn't have that many modern printer drivers either (although it does have better support then OS4).
Which leave users of both our OS' scrambling to find Postscript compatible laser printers.
Not a bad solution, but somewhat limited.

[slayer]

From what I've seen over the last few months and even prior there are a good amount of printers that work straight out of the box with OS4.x... I think some people just want there choice of printer to work and this is understandable from a certain point of view but just not realistic enough...

More printer support will come in time... The thing I find funny personally for myself is I have owned an OS4.x machine since day one and now I own 4 of them and never printed from any of them one single time...

;-)


When I start programming I'm not sure printer drivers are going to be high on my list either...

[Nearly-Right]

yup.  it supports both PCL and postscript.  so it's not a good example per se since we've had those drivers for eons -- but i wanted to demonstrate it is still possible to support recent printers nonetheless.

I don't see that it's a PostScript printer, just PCL, PJL, and PML as far as I can make out, but it's worth knowing that it works OK with the printer drivers we already have.

Which printer driver do you use with OS4.0 for the HP J6480 OfficeJet?

Can I take it that the scanner won't work under OS4.0 with any scanning software we currently have within the OS or that works with OS4.x?

at amiwest the discussion of developing the new printing system around CUPS was part of ben's talks.  i don't recall there being much detail about schedule, implementation specifics, etc.  there is a post of his talk over on youtube and on robert's video site.

Are you saying it was more of a throw about of ideas, 'hot air' rather than a time-schedule to get the printing system up-to-date? If so, then the printing system may well be languishing for some time waiting for some meaningful work to be done on it.

in truth i'd like to see more than just hyperion working on getting the imaging situation on OS4 improved.  a modern printing infrastructure coupled with (finally) finishing a native pagestream5 and an OS4-native version of arteffect would be wonderful and a selling point not just for classic users.

Ahh, PageStream 5, OOh, Yeah, but Deron Kazmaier seems to be struggling with the MUI implementation, along with other bugs/problems, that he is not too familiar with. I believe he has someone who is prepared to work on the MUI side of PageStream that knows MUI better than Deron himself, but I believe that the server infrastructure is not in place as yet for the work to be started as yet.

hmmm.  well everyone at AWN knew about this from various show reports; but it's true that, beyond ben's talk at amiwest, there hasn't been much on this via official channels.

Well until Karlos mentioned CUPS, and you mentioning it as well, that was the first I'd heard of work on the printing side of the OS, but then making the trip to AmiWest to hear the discussion would have been too far for me to consider as viable, as I'm in the UK.

 that said i really do think communication has improved substantially over the past nine months.  a full-court press at amiwest, the developers' blog, more public participation in the forums (particularly AWN and amigans.net).... it's not ideal, but it is getting better and i think the hyperion folks really do 'get it' that a good communications channel is essential to keeping folks interested.

Well if Hyperion 'get it' they haven't gone out of their way to 'show it', as there's still very little support from them for Classic OS4.1, no online FAQ for Classic OS4.1, as I believe was offered on their blog pages,and no discount for those, like me, who got 'burnt' with the Classic OS4.0 release.

It would be a nice, and fair gesture to acknowledge their poor quality release of Classic OS4.0 and offer some discount to those users who are prepared/want to upgrade to Classic OS4.1. I for one got very, very little use out of Classic OS4.0, and I'm sure, from what other people have said, who bought Classic OS4.0, I'm not alone in that thought.

i adore using OS4 on my SAM, and i really think it is a very enjoyable hobby.  there are certainly some shortcomings, such as the printing subsystem, and it does no harm to discuss them openly.  that's how things get changed.  i think the hesitation in others to talk about known issues stems from folks using them as an excuse to start bashing OS4, hyperion, ben hermans, pick your favorite.

I take no pleasure in 'having a go' at anyone from Hyperion or any of the betatesters, all of whom must have spent many hours/days,etc., working to improve Classic OS4.1, but some of it doesn't feel like a full product, yet they still want to charge a full product price. I feel that those involved on OS4.x, for whichever piece of Amiga OS intended, hardware ought to know what it feels for those of us outside the 'closed circle'

in any case i look forward to update3 and beyond.

Yes, but I, and I'm sure many others, want to be assured in paying £100 for the Classic OS 4.1 that there will be updates to it, and need to know that it's worth what's being asked for it. Because, at the moment I feel cheated out of the value of what I paid for Classic OS4.0, as I feel none of us received a genuinely usable product with the last Classic OS4.0 release.

[Nearly-Right]

From what I've seen over the last few months and even prior there are a good amount of printers that work straight out of the box with OS4.x... I think some people just want there choice of printer to work and this is understandable from a certain point of view but just not realistic enough...

So are you saying it's not realistic to expect printers you can still buy in the shops to be supported by the new OS when you buy Windows or Mac OS?

I don't think I would believe that, and it shouldn't be the case with OS4.1. What's more, after about 8 years of development Hyperion should have got some printer manufacturers interested enough or prepared to offer up some details as to how to enable their more recent printers to work with Amiga OS4.x.

More printer support will come in time... The thing I find funny personally for myself is I have owned an OS4.x machine since day one and now I own 4 of them and never printed from any of them one single time...;-)

So, what do you do with your OS4.x machines? Obviously not DTP, and maybe not even GFX, but web/internet use usually needs something to be printed out every so often, well I find I do.

When I start programming I'm not sure printer drivers are going to be high on my list either...

Well, I'd hope this doesn't ruin it for the rest of us.

[eliyahu]

I don't see that it's a PostScript printer, just PCL, PJL, and PML as far as I can make out, but it's worth knowing that it works OK with the printer drivers we already have.

Which printer driver do you use with OS4.0 for the HP J6480 OfficeJet?

i'm currently using the photosmart driver available on o4depot coupled with lpr.device for networking printing purposes.  it's a bit of a pain to have to hand-edit the IP address, but once it's done, it works like a charm.

Can I take it that the scanner won't work under OS4.0 with any scanning software we currently have within the OS or that works with OS4.x?

good question.  i've never tried since i tend to use the web interface for scanning anyway.  it might work with SCANdal, but i doubt it.

Are you saying it was more of a throw about of ideas, 'hot air' rather than a time-schedule to get the printing system up-to-date? If so, then the printing system may well be languishing for some time waiting for some meaningful work to be done on it.

no, they were actually announcing their development plans for the near-term.  it's just that i don't recall them discussing dates for delivery.  ben made clear that it was something that hadn't been worked on in some time, and that he and the team wanted to see progress on the printing front to bring it up to modern standards if for no other reason than to support recent printing hardware.

Ahh, PageStream 5, OOh, Yeah, but Deron Kazmaier seems to be struggling with the MUI implementation, along with other bugs/problems, that he is not too familiar with. I believe he has someone who is prepared to work on the MUI side of PageStream that knows MUI better than Deron himself, but I believe that the server infrastructure is not in place as yet for the work to be started as yet.

i remember him asking around for someone to help with (or take over) development due to his difficulties with MUI.  i don't know if that was OS4-specific, though, as the request was also made on morphzone.org.  in any case substantial MUI fixes and updates are coming with 'update 3' according to various developers.

Well until Karlos mentioned CUPS, and you mentioning it as well, that was the first I'd heard of work on the printing side of the OS, but then making the trip to AmiWest to hear the discussion would have been too far for me to consider as viable, as I'm in the UK.

hey, it's hard on me and i live here. :lol:

Well if Hyperion 'get it' they haven't gone out of their way to 'show it', as there's still very little support from them for Classic OS4.1, no online FAQ for Classic OS4.1, as I believe was offered on their blog pages,and no discount for those, like me, who got 'burnt' with the Classic OS4.0 release.

i'm not sure they have ever offered discounts to previous customers.  who knows, maybe they'll give you one if you ask nicely? :cool:

there is good and plentiful documentation included in the retail package, but nothing that i can see online.  support is something i'd like to see improved, but given the small size of the community, the help available on the fora, and the fact that neither the morphOS team nor the AROS developers offer formal support either, i doubt we'll see anything on that front for a while.  if the X1000 attracts a bunch of folks, though, they may need to.  it's something we can continue to suggest, and, as paying customers, they take our views seriously.

It would be a nice, and fair gesture to acknowledge their poor quality release of Classic OS4.0 and offer some discount to those users who are prepared/want to upgrade to Classic OS4.1. I for one got very, very little use out of Classic OS4.0, and I'm sure, from what other people have said, who bought Classic OS4.0, I'm not alone in that thought.

i'm sorry to hear that.  it sounds like folks relying on native, i.e., AGA graphics did not have as enjoyable experience as though with discrete external video cards.  but from what i have garnered from friends who used both OS4 and v4.1 with the subsequent updates, that it is a much, much improved product.  i can't comment directly since i only joined the amiga community last year with the purchase of a SAM.  this year's amiwest is to focus on 'normal' usage of classic and NG amiga kit, so maybe the videos that come from the conference will give you a better idea of whether the new version is worth your time (and money).

i can only say that OS 4.1u2 is fantastic on my SAM.

I take no pleasure in 'having a go' at anyone from Hyperion or any of the betatesters, all of whom must have spent many hours/days,etc., working to improve Classic OS4.1, but some of it doesn't feel like a full product, yet they still want to charge a full product price. I feel that those involved on OS4.x, for whichever piece of Amiga OS intended, hardware ought to know what it feels for those of us outside the 'closed circle'

Yes, but I, and I'm sure many others, want to be assured in paying £100 for the Classic OS 4.1 that there will be updates to it, and need to know that it's worth what's being asked for it. Because, at the moment I feel cheated out of the value of what I paid for Classic OS4.0, as I feel none of us received a genuinely usable product with the last Classic OS4.0 release.

i know.  i wasn't including you in the comment about folks 'having a go' at hyperion, et al.  it seems to me your experience with OS 4.0 was so bad that you would have wanted a refund.  i don't feel it is a 'closed circle' any more, though.  much of what is being planned is being discussed publicly these days.  i think the real issue here is that, unlike windows or OS X or linux, you can't just pop into your local big box retail outlet and try it out for yourself.  this was very frustrating for me since purchasing a SAM and OS4 was not an inexpensive proposition, and relying on fora and youtube videos only helps so much. :lol:

perhaps there is someone that frequents these boards within driving distance that wouldn't mind you trying OS 4.1 on their system?  if you lived in connecticut, you'd be welcome to swing by me -- but then again, i don't have classic hardware.

i hope someone from hyperion is reading all of this, but if not, try reaching out to them and see if they are willing to help with a discount or offer a refund guarantee or something.  the worst they can say is 'no,' so it's worth a shot.

let us know what you end up deciding.

-- eliyahu

[magnetic]

Karlos

Didnt hyperion say something about a CUPS port recently?

(pah didnt read the whole thread b4 posting) lol

[Nearly-Right]

no, they were actually announcing their development plans for the near-term.

OK, I'll bear that in mind

there is good and plentiful documentation included in the retail package, but nothing that i can see online.  support is something i'd like to see improved, but given the small size of the community, the help available on the fora, and the fact that neither the morphOS team nor the AROS developers offer formal support either, i doubt we'll see anything on that front for a while.

Glad you agree on that point, but Darren Eveland 'HammerD' has gone to a lot of trouble to make such information readily available, but I still feel that it should be on either Hyperion's or AmigaKit's website as they are the publishers, and authorised dealers - respectively, and Darren shouldn't be having to do it for them, though hopefully they have come to some financial arrangement with him for all his useful effort

from what i have garnered from friends who used both OS4 and v4.1 with the subsequent updates, that it is a much, much improved product.

I really hope it is, but I'm still seeing posts on some of the Amiga forums the difficulties that some users are having with Classic OS4.1 in its latest creation, so the software still needs some noticeable improvement and work to get it up the standard I'd be prepared to consider buying it, so there's some way to go yet, IMHO.

I had some good news from Elbox, who say that they are currently working on implementing for OS4.1, what was a DMA 'hack' under OS3.9, for the PCI library 10.x which would see, the currently usable under OS3.9, DMA requiring PCI cards for the Mediator become usable under Classic OS4.1+, which would be really good news.

That should mean that the Soundblaster 128 & LIVE and other PCI Soundcards, faster network cards - the RTL8139, the Spider USB, and other PCI cards would become usable again with a Mediator - but this is work that is currently under way, and not completed or confirmed as yet.

I also believe there is a new batch/model of A1200 FastATA boards being produced for one of our favourite suppliers, so if this occurs I will feel more strongly about migrating to Classic OS4.1 than I have done before, but it is still an egg not a chicken that we have here, so I'll be watching for it all to materialise, but it certainly sounds like good news.

Elbox also still have plans, they say, for a PCI PPC card for the Mediator, but I don't have any more specific details on those plans, as yet.

I did ask them if they minded if I posted this information on this site, but they didn't reply yesterday, one way or the other, so I've gone ahead and let the wider Amiga community know of what I've been told so far, which I hope is of interest to other people who seem to be interested in this thread.

i can only say that OS 4.1u2 is fantastic on my SAM.

Well, I'm pleased you are happy with it on newer hardware, but I still feel the price for the hardware is expensive, notwithstanding the hardware is being produced in relatively small batches.

perhaps there is someone that frequents these boards within driving distance that wouldn't mind you trying OS 4.1 on their system?  if you lived in connecticut, you'd be welcome to swing by me -- but then again, i don't have classic hardware.

I'm not aware of anyone in my area in the UK with such Classic PPC hardware, and Classic OS4.1, unfortunately.

i hope someone from hyperion is reading all of this, but if not, try reaching out to them and see if they are willing to help with a discount or offer a refund guarantee or something.  the worst they can say is 'no,' so it's worth a shot.

I've tried contacting Hyperion before, and it's like trying to get a response from the Marie Celeste.

let us know what you end up deciding.

There's a long way to go, read that as a possible long wait, before I make a decision on buying Classic OS4.1, as it has yet to become stable, and really usable with the DMA cards, as I feel many Mediator owners with PPC boards are holding their breath for such developments.