OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?

[SamuraiCrow]

AROS has had almost no exposure and hasn't reached a 1.0 release yet.  I wouldn't consider it a litmus test for the possible success of x86 AOS.

I would.  AROS has shader support under Mesa using NVidia graphics cards using the Nouveau drivers under Gallium3D.  AmigaOS 4.x doesn't support shaders at all and MiniGL is based on Warp3D which is not capable of shaders at this time.  

On the other hand, the 1.0 release of AROS ABIs are expected in a few months and will prompt recompilation of all the apps due to incompatibility with AmigaOS 3.1 sources.

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You can pretty much thank Apple for the death of PowerPC desktop machine, and it has nothing to do with Apple switching to Intel CPUs a few years ago, but everything to do with Apple killing off the CHRP in the mid-late '90ies when they refused to license MacOS to "clones", before any other desktop OS had managed to establish themselves on the PowerPC. And you can ask IBM and Freescale (Motorola back then) what they thought of it at the time.

Oh, and it's 68k, not 64k

64k lol - can you tell i've been messing around with computers for too long?! 64k probably relates to my first computer a Amstrad CPC 464 with 64k of RAM I think from memory..

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To me moving to x86 would loose the Amiga charm as well, only thing X86 related that I like is UAE.

Now that I am getting my "classics" more and more updated, I ma enjoying them very much.

I think a move to x86 would alienate a lot of people, that really like the classics (Ito me PPC as far as classic will go)

I agree, and if someone produced a modern PPC card today for the classic machines, I would be really interested and so would many other people I feel dabbling with classic Amiga, to the point whereby you might get renewed interesting in OS4 with the associated renewed development projects

[jj]

Amstrad CPC range, best 8bit ever

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Amstrad CPC range, best 8bit ever

I sold mine for a 128k Spectrum...

[Iggy]

Amstrad CPC range, best 8bit ever

Nay, C65 beast 8bit (we're not counting if it reached full production, right?).



Back to topic. If I read the posts after my last post correctly, Hyperion would have pay their developers not just for an X86 port, but they would alspo have to pay again for the right to use the source codes of AOS4 for the port? Or wouls any product resulting from AOS4.X source code still be covered?

[the_leander]

Amstrad CPC range, best 8bit ever

Nay, C65 beast 8bit (we're not counting if it reached full production, right?).

Nope, both wrong: Sam Coupe, bitches :p

Back to topic. If I read the posts after my last post correctly, Hyperion would have pay their developers not just for an X86 port, but they would alspo have to pay again for the right to use the source codes of AOS4 for the port? Or wouls any product resulting from AOS4.X source code still be covered?

They don't own the source code - the developers do - Hyperion is effectively a shell company, all developers are effectively contractors. The only have a licence to sell the binaries, which they would need to renegotiate with the devs to recompile for x86. They would have to pay off their devs in order to get the source, which I seriously doubt they have the cash to do.

Also, afaik they're only licensed to produce OS4 for PPC. They would need to re-negotiate with Amiga.Inc for that.

Effectively, they're stuck.

[Iggy]

Nope, both wrong: Sam Coupe, bitches :p



They don't own the source code - the developers do - Hyperion is effectively a shell company, all developers are effectively contractors. The only have a licence to sell the binaries, which they would need to renegotiate with the devs to recompile for x86. They would have to pay off their devs in order to get the source, which I seriously doubt they have the cash to do.

Also, afaik they're only licensed to produce OS4 for PPC. They would need to re-negotiate with Amiga.Inc for that.

Effectively, they're stuck.

I thought that might ne the case. Wow, now that's a realy f'd up position for the Amiga market. Hyperion is allowed to use the terms mentioned before. AInc. can't use AmigaOS, but retains all rights including the right to the Amiga name and the copanyy they license the use of the Amiga name to isn't interested in AROS or AOS (and according to my converation with Barry he actually approached the MOS team, who told him the same thing that we've all heard - no X86 port for the foreseeable future).

This entire sistuation is only going to confuse the average consumer and make it even more impossible to create a renewed interest in the Amiga brand.

Now do you guys understand why I don't care if MOS or AROS carry an Amiga brand?
What was done in the past is cool, but it can be run on almost any platform.
What's to come in the future has to stand on its own merits (against some really well backed competitors that all offer OS' with a solid foundation and much bigger markets to draw developers).

Since a more ideal situation couldn't be negotiated, I'm not too displeased with the current situation.
I've said it before, Hyperion product acts to attract developers to the PPC market which could benefit MorphOS as well.
And AROS, beyond all understanding, is still chugging along approaching real utility.

The resurgence/re-emergence of the Amiga as a consumer brand is as unlikely as ever, but those of us in the Amiga hobbyist market now have a wider range of decent chioces than ever.

[the_leander]

I thought that might ne the case. Wow, now that's a realy f'd up position for the Amiga market.

Indeed, and if there is any way of making this situation worse, I can't think of it.

Hyperion is allowed to use the terms mentioned before. AInc. can't use AmigaOS, but retains all rights including the right to the Amiga name and the copanyy they license the use of the Amiga name to isn't interested in AROS or AOS (and according to my converation with Barry he actually approached the MOS team, who told him the same thing that we've all heard - no X86 port for the foreseeable future).

The problem is that the court ruling specifically prohibits Amiga.Inc from going into competition with Hyperion. If Barry were to start selling a rebadged AROS as AmigaOS5, both Barry and Amiga.inc could well be landed in it.

That's not to say Barry can't sell Amiga brand PCs, just not with AROS or any other Amiga-like installed on it.

This entire sistuation is only going to confuse the average consumer and make it even more impossible to create a renewed interest in the Amiga brand.

Welcome to the Amiga community.

Now do you guys understand why I don't care if MOS or AROS carry an Amiga brand?
What was done in the past is cool, but it can be run on almost any platform.
What's to come in the future has to stand on its own merits (against some really well backed competitors that all offer OS' with a solid foundation and much bigger markets to draw developers).

Thing is, it's gone past that, Amiga's one and only selling point now is nostalgia, for the reasons you point to. And thanks to the hinky legal situation, the name cannot go forward at this point either.

I've said it before, Hyperion product acts to attract developers to the PPC

Hyperion has attracted nothing but flack (a lot of it well deserved) for being little more than a pariah. Under it's stewardship, the Amiga community has shrunk to around a tenth of it's size in ~2000.

I'm sorry, but I simply cannot agree to the above statement.

[Iggy]

Your right about numbers. In fact you might be overestimating.

Active, paying customers in each market segment (AROS, MOS, AOS4, and Legacy systems) may number in the hundreds each, not thousands.

MOS has seen some ports from AOS4 and AROS, but most of our software comes from a handful of talented MOS developers porting from outside thiese platforms.

[Buzzfuzz]

1: Time and money required to port the operating system. I have absolutely zero idea how long this would take, but I am assuming it'd be a pretty significant endeavour.

It all depends on who is doing it and with how many people, money will be quite some, but most will be licenses and patents surrounding x86.
 

2: Time and money required to port applications. Without app's, an OS is worthless.

Like said, most apps are ready for x86 and the ones that aren't shouldn't be that hard to convert.
 

3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?

Ability to run on new hardware, but that is just a driver issue, can be done for AROS also.
 

4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.
When it comes to hardware there's two options: The linux way (support it all in the kernel, which requires massive amounts of work from a large number of people) or the windows way (have the hardware manufacturer write drivers for you).
OS4 would have neither.
 
The assumption in these threads tends to be "we could run amiga OS on any PC and it'd be rad". And that would rad, but it won't be reality.

Again like above, you need to write better drivers, but once the port is done that shouldn't take that long.
 

5: User base.
Is there any actual user base in a world saturated with mature OS choices ? What do I get out of amiga os in the present day and age, that isn't already served by one of the big four (windows, linux, bsd or mac) in some flavour or form ?
I'd love to see data on this, but I heavily suspect that the amount of non-amiga folks using morph or aros is a distinct minority.
I have a hard time seeing how x86 amiga os would attract new people rather than just shuffle existing users around.

If people are willing to buy an X1000, then why wouldn't you try this ?
If OS4 x86 cost about 1/10 of an X1000 then I think more people would try that rather than an X1000.
At least you could still use an x86 machine if you don't like it.
With the X1000 your stuck and have to sell it again, and that will always be used, so less than you paid for anyway.
 

I agree, and if someone produced a modern PPC card today for the classic machines, I would be really interested and so would many other people I feel dabbling with classic Amiga, to the point whereby you might get renewed interesting in OS4 with the associated renewed development projects

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Well if it is possible, let's just say we have a new like Cyberstorm PPC II.
It's a 060 with PowerPC A2 or PowerPC e5500 (Freescale Semiconductor).
Then what ?
 
Within 3 or 4 years it will be outdated again and has be designed again with a new PPC.
Besides that, you also need to find enough 060's for the boards.
And you can't push much more out of a 060, eventually it will cause all kinds of problems and die if it is overclocked.

[takemehomegrandma]

Now do you guys understand why I don't care if MOS or AROS carry an Amiga brand?

Noo, please no! Don't pollute MorphOS with flaky trade marks! MorphOS has its own trade mark now, with its own values. It's new and fresh, free from the crap that burdens the "Amiga" mark since 1.5 decade of mis-management, the visual style of its logotype looks really good aesthetically, and the blue Morpho butterfly is really beautiful! The name also alludes to "Metamorphosis", the process in which a life form transforms into another, like the old platform morphed into the new MorphOS.

It's all very clever!

[Fats]

On the other hand, the 1.0 release of AROS ABIs are expected in a few months

Hopefully but I can't promise anything. Luckily I found some free time in the last weeks to work on ABI V1.

and will prompt recompilation of all the apps due to incompatibility with AmigaOS 3.1 sources.

To be correct: the x86 ABI has just grown over the years without being thought through. Some bad choices have been made. We did not want to break old programs every now and then and implemented non-backwards compatible changes in a branch. Unfortunately I am to only one active in the branch and real life has been interfering with my AROS work.
The official ABI for m68k has always been OS 3.x compatibility.

greets,
Staf.

[Iggy]

Noo, please no! Don't pollute MorphOS with flaky trade marks! MorphOS has its own trade mark now, with its own values. It's new and fresh, free from the crap that burdens the "Amiga" mark since 1.5 decade of mis-management, the visual style of its logotype looks really good aesthetically, and the blue Morpho butterfly is really beautiful! The name also alludes to "Metamorphosis", the process in which a life form transforms into another, like the old platform morphed into the new MorphOS.

It's all very clever!

Not only is it clever, it functional. And when the developers make a promise or a statement they're make good on their words, so it can't be Amiga

[Kesa]

Out of curiosity if the x1000 used x86 instead of PPC then how much could we expect to pay for it? How much money would i expect to save? This is theoretical and not taking into consideration hyperion or amigainc licenses or whatever...

[WolfToTheMoon]

Out of curiosity if the x1000 used x86 instead of PPC then how much could we expect to pay for it? How much money would i expect to save? This is theoretical and not taking into consideration hyperion or amigainc licenses or whatever...

If we take XMOS out of the picture and compare performancePPC vs performancex86, I'd say you would pay 4-5 times less(if X1000 price is somewhere around 2000 euros, which is likely) for hardware + AOS4 license. With XMOS included, I'd say half as much, but that's probably guessing wildly.