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Offline persia

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #74 from previous page: October 29, 2010, 03:40:04 PM »
There's nothing inherently wrong with PPC or superior with X86, it simply was a case of demand driving down the price.  Before the switch Apple was perhaps 4 % of the market, not enough to make a difference to IBM.  When Apple wanted a more powerful PPC for laptops IBM told them to just wait and we'll get around to it, eventually, some day, real soon now. So Apple gave in.  Even the desktop chips, the "military spec" G5s were falling desperately behind X86.  The choice was clear, expensive, slow, rare PPC or cheap, fast, common X86.  The choice was obvious.
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Offline divined

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #75 on: October 29, 2010, 03:41:59 PM »
Quote
And surprise, surprise... OS 4.1 is coming for the Classics


Sure it is! The problem is what to do with OS 4.1 on a classic Amiga powered by a low clocked ppc. I mean most software for OS 4.1 don`t run fast enough on a sam 440. What luck would they have on a 200MHz ppc accelerator for a classic Amiga?
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Offline ChrisH

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #76 on: October 29, 2010, 06:07:05 PM »
Quote from: divined;587898
I mean most software for OS 4.1 don`t run fast enough on a sam 440.
You are badly informed, as a Sam440 runs most OS4 software very nicely (the main exception being 3D games more complex than Quake 2, and playing videos at High Def resolutions).
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Offline ChrisH

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2010, 06:22:57 PM »
Quote from: the_leander;587522
They don't own the source code - the developers do - Hyperion ... afaik they're only licensed to produce OS4 for PPC. They would need to re-negotiate with Amiga.Inc for that.

That is so wrong & badly informed that I just had to log-in to correct it :(

According to the Settlement between Hyperion & Amiga Inc, Hyperion own AmigaOS4 lock, stock & two smoking barrels (sorry for the film reference).  As such they may port it to whatever hardware they like (including x86 if they wanted), without asking anyone.  If in doubt, please look at parts 1.(a), 1.(b) & 1.(c) of the Settlement.  However, Amiga Inc does still own AmigaOS 3.1 (which is the "Software" the Settlement talks about).
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Offline ChrisH

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2010, 06:47:50 PM »
Quote from: runequester;586720
So this comes up constantly. "Amiga should move to x86 and everything would be way better".

I don't think its all that simple really. Here's some things that'd at least warrant exploring:

I think you got all the points exactly right, even if almost no-one else posting here agrees!

Quote
1: Time and money required to port the operating system. I have absolutely zero idea how long this would take, but I am assuming it'd be a pretty significant endeavour.

Yes, mainly because:
(a) AmigaOS assumes a Big Endian CPU (and x86 is Little Endian).  I think there is a way around this, but most people seem to disagree with me, or at least recoil in horror at my suggestion!
(b) AmigaOS4 apparently assumes a PPC architecture, and reworking the low-levels for x86 would be a significant undertaking.  I'm a bit surprised about this, given it's supposed to have a HAL, but then again the if they added too much CPU abstraction they might have (i) terrible performance, or (ii) have spent a lot of money without any apparent gain when PPC was the only goal.

Quote
2: Time and money required to port applications.Without app's, an OS is worthless.

Contrary to the glib "just recompile" replies, AmigaOS4 has a nice library of (OS4 specific) software, and recompiling these would:
(a) be extremely time consuming (OS4Depot currently has 2700 packages).
(b) wouldn't actually work without a lot of fixes, due to Endian issues.
(c) not be possible in more than a few instances, due to lack of source code (not everyone has stayed around for the entire rollercoaster ride of OS4 development, even if things are looking good in the last year or so).
(d) some software authors would refuse to recompile for x86 (perhaps stuidly, but it's their perogative).

Quote
3: Oh hey there AROS! What functionality does os4 give that AROS doesn't ?

I think quite a lot (especially feature wise), but any answers would likely be construed as an attack on AROS, so I decline to list anything specific.

Quote
4: Most overlooked:
Hardware support.
AROS has been around for years and still supports a fairly limited range of hardware.
When it comes to hardware there's two options: The linux way (support it all in the kernel, which requires massive amounts of work from a large number of people) or the windows way (have the hardware manufacturer write drivers for you).
OS4 would have neither.

Glib answers like "use OSS drivers" overlook the fact that Linux drivers are virtually useless for AmigaOS, due to the extremely different driver models.

The only solution would be to hand-pick a few specific x86 motherboards, but you better be damn sure they will still be produced in a couple of years time, or the cost of supporting them might not be worth the effort.

Quote
The assumption in these threads tends to be "we could run amiga OS on any PC and it'd be rad". And that would rad, but it won't be reality.

Absolutely - I'd love to see AmigaOS4 running on a cheap x86 machine.  But it's simply not practical.

Quote
Pessimistic ? Maybe. But I think the choices that were made (powerPC) were good choices at the time. I think it's too late at this point to go back.

I think you are right.  This means the price of entry for AmigaOS4 is higher than a dirty little PC that runs Windows, but then I bash my head against the wall all the time when I use Windows for all it's stupid idiosyncrasies, and coming back to AmigaOS4 is such a relief!  I'm not unhappy to have paid a higher price of entry...
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Offline haywirepc

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2010, 06:57:58 PM »
Unless someone comes out with a 1.0 ghz or faster pcc card for classic amigas, os4.1 on it is a joke. What I get  to just load os4 and look at it?
 
Way to slow to do anything at 200mhz or less, unless you just want to load it and look at it... Oh maybe you can run a text editor or paint...
 
They wasted how much time on the classic support? ppc cards are WAY too slow to be useful at all running os4.
 
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Offline persia

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #80 on: October 29, 2010, 08:19:33 PM »
I don't agree.  I think AmigaOS should be price competitive with PCs.  SAM & X1000 make Mac price/performance ratios look bargain basement.  As I said if nothing else interesting was occurring in the computer world then it wouldn't be so bad, trouble is the computer world is looking more interesting now than it did in the last 16 years.  Tablets, game consoles, the who "i" series of devices, TVs with 3D and built in internet software.  The list goes on.  I simply can't afford 1500 plus quid on one device.

Quote from: ChrisH;587971

I think you are right.  This means the price of entry for AmigaOS4 is higher than a dirty little PC that runs Windows, but then I bash my head against the wall all the time when I use Windows for all it's stupid idiosyncrasies, and coming back to AmigaOS4 is such a relief!  I'm not unhappy to have paid a higher price of entry...
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Offline ad-rs1600i

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2010, 11:17:49 AM »
Quote from: vidarh;587869
Except it *does* to quite a few Amiga users. Even the PPC is controversial still to some Amiga users.

I use, and have contributed code to, AROS, but I also detest the x86 architecture. I'm pragmatic and x86 hardware because I need a main machine that is fast, and x86_64 is far cleaner, but for hack value the PPC is far more appealing and the M68k even more.

The thing is, AmigaOS4 (or 5 or whatever) on x86 wouldn't interest me much. I have AROS for that need. On PPC it's a different deal, beause of the hack value. I'll pay a premium for that. A big one. From the looks of it, I'm not the only one.

Now, I'm sure there are people who'd buy AmigaOS4 for x86 in a heatbeat, but who can't justify a SAM or X1000, but likewise there will be people for whom AmigaOS4 on x86 would be completely uninteresting, but who'll happily pay for the PPC version even if it is more expensive

Hyperion has to weight the odds of the former group being larger than the second group by a sufficient factor to offset the porting cost, and there really is no good basis for making a judgement about that.

It is naive at best to assume that non-Amiga users would flock to AmigaOS if it was available at current price for x86, for example - it'd be compared to Linux, Windows and OS X, and for users without a strong sentimental bond to the Amiga, it's still lacking too many things to be a serious contender. So the queston is how many Amiga fans are out there without PPC or classic hardware that'd buy OS4 for x86 instead of just using UAE or AROS if they decide to go x86?

They'd make a big investment in porting (new drivers, endianness issues - and in my experience porting Amiga code to AROS, there are likely to be many) while splitting the software market for OS4 in two and risk alienating many of their customers, with little hope of any big payoff from new users.

They're far better off improving their current product for now, and quietly making it more solid and more portable and more up to scratch compared to other OS's, and build up a better set of OS4 software that is more easily ported (discourage ASM), and then *if* they decide to do a switch, do it down the line if they have something that might actually compete with other x86 OS's for non-Amiga users.


I totally agree with this post :) And I also think the guys who are making the PPc stuff are not over pricing it. It boils down to economies of scale - small production runs = high end cost and large production runs = low end cost. I had the same in my model car hobby where a bag of seemingly innocuous screws would cost £8?!?!

You are paying a lot for PPc, but if it is your interest i.e. modern Amiga, then surely it is worth the additional cost to keep something original and unique alive? I would hate Amiga running on X86, it would just be another X86 OS.. Does everyone else not love the originality and uniqueness of the hardware? It always was expensive anyway back in the day, but with a really long life span :)

I am into the classics and will likely buy a A630 board from Individual Computers when it comes out - I bet it will be retailed around £170 - which for a 25mhz board with 32meg of ram in the year 2010, when for £170 I could buy a Netbook probably seems like madness. But to me I would be buying something very special, very unique and would also be ensuring people like Individual Computers would be brave enough to keep producing interesting pieces of hardware for my Amiga classic.

I think for the long term guys who have been buying Amiga throughout and have been into it from the year dot - if this platform is really your bag, which I am sure it is, I would try and support the guys producing modern Amiga stuff before they shut up shop for good. I wouldn't worry about trying to take on Microsoft or Apple - Amiga as a modern commercial brand is all about survival at the moment I believe.. Time to get behind the people who have licenced the Amiga brand, or let it die.... Would I? I am very new back to Amiga as a hobbiest, and for me it is hobby computing - I would seriously consider it if they produced a new PPc trapdoor card :) Just for the shear hell of it! :)

Hope this doesn't offend anyone, only a personal opinion :)
 

Offline nicholas

Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2010, 11:28:20 AM »
Quote from: haywirepc;587979
Unless someone comes out with a 1.0 ghz or faster pcc card for classic amigas, os4.1 on it is a joke. What I get  to just load os4 and look at it?
 
Way to slow to do anything at 200mhz or less, unless you just want to load it and look at it... Oh maybe you can run a text editor or paint...
 
They wasted how much time on the classic support? ppc cards are WAY too slow to be useful at all running os4.


Utter crap!

A1200 BPPC/200, BVision, PCMCIA Ethernet running an emulated 68k ASM driver, playing MPEG2 video over the network from a samba share.

Full frame rate, no skipping or tearing, smooth, audio is perfect and the machine is still as responsive and multitasks just as well as it is when not playing the video.

Troll much?
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Offline warpdesign

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2010, 11:36:18 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;588125
Utter crap!

A1200 BPPC/200, BVision, PCMCIA Ethernet running an emulated 68k ASM driver, playing MPEG2 video over the network from a samba share.

Full frame rate, no skipping or tearing, smooth, audio is perfect and the machine is still as responsive and multitasks just as well as it is when not playing the video.

Troll much?

MPEG2 ?
Welcome to 2010, people now use MP4 and I doubt it runs on your machine... even with frameskiping and no sound.

I also doubt your machine can cope with DVD decoding (and I'm not even talking about bluray, which is standard...).

It's no crap. These machines are very limited...
 

Offline ad-rs1600i

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2010, 11:43:52 AM »
Again, without wanting to cause offence because it is a brilliant achievement that OS4 exists with such a strong vibrant community :). If OS4 went X86 and could run on standard hardware PC, isn't there a danger that folk would begin to see some of the more limited areas of OS4, and simply go for the easy option of dual booting something like Linux or Windows. OS4 on X86 might have the opposite effect with the platform decaying and seeing little more development due to the ease of access of alternatives? I am a romantic, but there wouldn't even be the magic with the interesting hardware, as the OS would be sitting on some dull, boring PC hardware - within a dull grey box :(
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2010, 12:00:11 PM »
Quote from: ad-rs1600i;588127
Again, without wanting to cause offence because it is a brilliant achievement that OS4 exists with such a strong vibrant community :). If OS4 went X86 and could run on standard hardware PC, isn't there a danger that folk would begin to see some of the more limited areas of OS4, and simply go for the easy option of dual booting something like Linux or Windows. OS4 on X86 might have the opposite effect with the platform decaying and seeing little more development due to the ease of access of alternatives? I am a romantic, but there wouldn't even be the magic with the interesting hardware, as the OS would be sitting on some dull, boring PC hardware - within a dull grey box :(

Don't you think 95% of the people here *already* own a PC or Mac ?

Being able to run OS4 on this machine would just mean they wouldn't have to spend so many cash to enjoy the very limited OS4 experience. So I would say on the contrary: it would bring more people to try it...

The people that spend xxx$ today to buy a custom slow machine to run OS4 will still spend ~100$ to use the OS on their PC...
 

Offline nicholas

Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2010, 01:35:01 PM »
Quote from: warpdesign;588126
MPEG2 ?
Welcome to 2010, people now use MP4 and I doubt it runs on your machine... even with frameskiping and no sound.

I also doubt your machine can cope with DVD decoding (and I'm not even talking about bluray, which is standard...).

It's no crap. These machines are very limited...


Why on earth would anyone even want to play a Bluray on an A1200?

Seriously, geeks like you who wet themselves at shiny new toys (As opposed to nerds who actually know what they are talking about and enjoy making stuff do what it wasn't designed to do just because we can) really don't get it at all.

If I wanted to play a Bluray (Which I don't, as I have more creative things to do with my time than waste it watching ) then I'd buy a Bluray player and a TV.

If I want to make hardware from 20yrs ago do things the engineers never imagined (Which I do, see "creative things" above) then I'll carry do what I'm doing with C64's, Amiga's and other eclectic pieces of hardware that are probably older than you.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2010, 05:42:48 PM by Argo »
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Offline ad-rs1600i

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2010, 02:03:29 PM »
Quote from: warpdesign;588130
Don't you think 95% of the people here *already* own a PC or Mac ?

Being able to run OS4 on this machine would just mean they wouldn't have to spend so many cash to enjoy the very limited OS4 experience. So I would say on the contrary: it would bring more people to try it...

The people that spend xxx$ today to buy a custom slow machine to run OS4 will still spend ~100$ to use the OS on their PC...


I wouldn't sadly :( For me, non custom hardware + x86 OS4 is not an Amiga - personal opinion obviously :) For example, I'm only going to use UAE(?) to move files between my Amiga and PC not for emulation :)

My 10p worth anyway - it will be interesting to see what happens :)
 

Offline ad-rs1600i

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2010, 02:08:11 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;588142
Why on earth would anyone even want to play a Bluray on an A1200?

Seriously, geeks like you who wet themselves at shiny new toys (As opposed to nerds who actually know what they are talking about and enjoy making stuff do what it wasn't designed to do just because we can) really don't get it at all.

If I wanted to play a Bluray (Which I don't, as I have more creative things to do with my time than waste it watching Zionist propaganda in the form of "entertainment") then I'd buy a Bluray player and a TV.

If I want to make hardware from 20yrs ago do things the engineers never imagined (Which I do, see "creative things" above) then I'll carry do what I'm doing with C64's, Amiga's and other eclectic pieces of hardware that are probably older than you.


That's what I like about classic Amiga - seeing the impossible made possible - and creative ingenuity at its very finest :) Even modern OS4 Amiga in all its various forms - its interesting to me because it is original and not brought down tescos in a brown box for £50 quid like modern machines are.......
 

Offline warpdesign

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Re: OS4 moves to x86. What happens next?
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2010, 02:13:51 PM »
Quote

Why on earth would anyone even want to play a Bluray on an A1200?

Thanks for calling me a geek. But someone still using in 2010 a 300Mhz-accelerated original 14/25Mhz Amiga from 1993 is more likely to be a geek than I am...

Sorry to disappoint you but the C64 isn't older than me, although lots of machines were built before I was born...

I like to see people doing things you couldn't expect to see with old machines too, including nice C64 demos, new OS for c64/amstrad cpc,... Yet, I fail to see the interest of the rather hungry OS4 with a Amiga+PowerPC today when compared with OS3.x + wup/pup.