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Author Topic: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86  (Read 43375 times)

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Offline Piru

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #239 from previous page: November 08, 2010, 08:15:03 AM »
Quote from: Hammer;590262
Anyway, AROS has emumiga. http://emumiga.com/about/
Well, I guess that's useful if you want to run the Clock application. Without alarm.

I fear the author is getting lost in his C++ quest (4 months now). I hope I'm wrong though.
 

Offline zylesea

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #240 on: November 08, 2010, 09:54:29 AM »
Quote from: ElPolloDiabl;590256
Arms are cheap, PPC are expensive.
Look at the price of just the SAM motherboard, no extras.

Looking at the Sam board prices just shows that Acube are charging massively. Why that actually is, may be debatable. But it isn't because the ppcs are so damn pretty expensive.
Unfortnately it is not that easy to obtain price quotes for the 460 (last price I found was about 100 US$ in small quantities, but it wasn't precisely the model Acube is using. Probaly that price is a good guess anyway). And if the 460 was that expensive then the big qestion is: why on earth use that chip when there are enough other ppc chips available?

Offline nicholas

Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #241 on: November 08, 2010, 10:18:46 AM »
Quote from: Piru;590267
Well, I guess that's useful if you want to run the Clock application. Without alarm.

I fear the author is getting lost in his C++ quest (4 months now). I hope I'm wrong though.


What's wrong with C++?
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #242 on: November 08, 2010, 11:15:03 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;590281
What's wrong with C++?
He should have used Obj-C... ;)



No seriously, I'm joking! I think the task of moving thebold procedural code to C++ is quite a large one, but should pay off with better code efficiency :)

Offline Piru

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #243 on: November 08, 2010, 11:19:11 AM »
Quote from: nicholas;590281
What's wrong with C++?

Not the C++ itself (althought I don't like it myself, it sure has some benefits in some case), but I fear the author might be losing focus. Just an example: I know several guys who keep working on the same project, reshaping it to whatever new ideas they have and/or technologies arising. The problem being that the actual project itself doesn't advance.
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #244 on: November 08, 2010, 01:50:32 PM »
Quote from: Piru;590285
Not the C++ itself (althought I don't like it myself, it sure has some benefits in some case), but I fear the author might be losing focus. Just an example: I know several guys who keep working on the same project, reshaping it to whatever new ideas they have and/or technologies arising. The problem being that the actual project itself doesn't advance.


I see, lack of design plus feature creep.
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline nicholas

Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #245 on: November 08, 2010, 01:53:11 PM »
Quote from: bloodline;590284
He should have used Obj-C... ;)



No seriously, I'm joking! I think the task of moving thebold procedural code to C++ is quite a large one, but should pay off with better code efficiency :)


Whatever happened to Anubis and it's Obj-C nonsense? Early miscarriage?
“Een rezhim-i eshghalgar-i Quds bayad az sahneh-i ruzgar mahv shaved.” - Imam Ayatollah Sayyed  Ruhollah Khomeini
 

Offline kolla

Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #246 on: November 08, 2010, 02:17:52 PM »
@Piru
One could almost suspect that Natami was a project written in C++ then :)
B5D6A1D019D5D45BCC56F4782AC220D8B3E2A6CC
---
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Offline billt

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #247 on: November 08, 2010, 04:02:22 PM »
Quote from: zylesea;590275
Looking at the Sam board prices just shows that Acube are charging massively. Why that actually is, may be debatable. But it isn't because the ppcs are so damn pretty expensive.
Unfortnately it is not that easy to obtain price quotes for the 460 (last price I found was about 100 US$ in small quantities, but it wasn't precisely the model Acube is using. Probaly that price is a good guess anyway). And if the 460 was that expensive then the big qestion is: why on earth use that chip when there are enough other ppc chips available?


Avnet has 1GHz 460ex chips for just over US$100. Slower versions go as low as about $75.
Go to http://www.avnet.com and search for 460ex, click on processors category in results.

If 460ex is expensive, then the only alternatives are lower performance than that. Many of us want to go in the positive direction, not backwards. Yes, even if that's more expensive.

It's all a bunch of tradeoffs. Someone has enforced a restriction to PowerPC. Like it or not, it's there for OS4. Don't like it, don't use OS4. If you want OS4, and some of us do, how do we best live within that restriction? Trying to keep price as low as is practical for a business and keeping performance where users want it can be tricky in a nanoscopic market like this. It's not just the parts that create cost, don't forget the NRE. The smaller your market, the fewer to spread that cost to, and the higher each customer pays toward it. Sucks to be us... But put out a high performance PPC laptop for OS4, and I'll find a way to pay for one. If I were designing it, my own personal priorities place performance and modern features as more important than low price.
Bill T
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #248 on: November 08, 2010, 04:06:34 PM »
Quote from: nicholas;590300
Whatever happened to Anubis and it's Obj-C nonsense? Early miscarriage?
IIRC the same problem AROS had when first started (before Aaron just said that he was going to clone 3.1 full stop), too many people with different ideas as to what it should be :(

I think AROS 68k is much more fun an idea now :)

Offline billt

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #249 on: November 08, 2010, 04:07:48 PM »
Quote from: kolla;590306
@Piru
One could almost suspect that Natami was a project written in C++ then :)


SystemC hardware language is based on C++, so that is actually possible.
Bill T
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Offline runequester

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #250 on: November 08, 2010, 04:55:16 PM »
Quote from: zylesea;590275
Looking at the Sam board prices just shows that Acube are charging massively. Why that actually is, may be debatable. But it isn't because the ppcs are so damn pretty expensive.
Unfortnately it is not that easy to obtain price quotes for the 460 (last price I found was about 100 US$ in small quantities, but it wasn't precisely the model Acube is using. Probaly that price is a good guess anyway). And if the 460 was that expensive then the big qestion is: why on earth use that chip when there are enough other ppc chips available?


Part of it, as far as I understand, is a lot of the work is apparently done in Italy rather than China.
 

Offline jorkany

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #251 on: November 08, 2010, 05:36:59 PM »
Quote from: zylesea;590275
And if the 460 was that expensive then the big qestion is: why on earth use that chip when there are enough other ppc chips available?


Probably whoever Acube's real customer base is had a requirement where the 460 was the best fit.
 

Offline zylesea

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #252 on: November 08, 2010, 06:55:02 PM »
Quote from: runequester;590334
Part of it, as far as I understand, is a lot of the work is apparently done in Italy rather than China.

Pegasos 1 & 2 and Efika 5200b were produced in Germany. Hence I think this China argument is rather void. And if Italy was that expensive I guess Bruxelles should really kick some arses in Roma. And why is a Fiat or Alfa then not x times more expensive than a Volkswagen or Mercedes... Poducing in Italy is not that expensive if done right.

Offline zylesea

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #253 on: November 08, 2010, 07:04:49 PM »
Quote from: billt;590323
Avnet has 1GHz 460ex chips for just over US$100. Slower versions go as low as about $75.
Go to http://www.avnet.com and search for 460ex, click on processors category in results.

If 460ex is expensive, then the only alternatives are lower performance than that. Many of us want to go in the positive direction, not backwards. Yes, even if that's more expensive.



Last time I checked a big supplier for the 460 I found only few prices. But they were similar to them Avnet lists now (about a 100$ for a 460ex). Hence it is exactly as I wrote. The 450 is not the massively driving cost factor. It is 100$ - not cheap, but also no reason to charge several hunderets for the board.
The price/performance ratio of the Sam just isn't convincing - and it *could* be done different.

Offline Iggy

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Re: Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86
« Reply #254 on: November 08, 2010, 07:06:54 PM »
Quote from: zylesea;590357
Pegasos 1 & 2 and Efika 5200b were produced in Germany. Hence I think this China argument is rather void. And if Italy was that expensive I guess Bruxelles should really kick some arses in Roma. And why is a Fiat or Alfa then not x times more expensive than a Volkswagen or Mercedes... Poducing in Italy is not that expensive if done right.


Zylesea has a point. Chinese manufacturing could help lower the cost of a mass produced motherboard. The affect on a low volume board wouldn't be as significant.
But I'd be surprisped if Acube's suggested retail wasn't about twice the manufactering cost.
Small manufacturers used to dealing with the embedded/industrial market often sell low volume products at steep prices.
I'd like to know what Acube's primary market is.
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