Ben Hermans still staunchly against x86

[zylesea]

How do you propose they bring down the price down to $300 for a new machine? This isn't a console market where the hardware can be sold at a loss, and mass market hardware is cheap because it's produced in bulk. I'm sure you know this already, which is why I'm surprised that the 'make it cheaper' is constantly brought up as a solution, it's obvious why the price is high.

Make a smart design. Step #1 is chose cpu and features with care. There's plenty ppc to chose from. Freescale has some interesting offers. They will not compete with x86 or ARM at every performance level, but there are chips with reasonable price/performance ratio for small computers that would get used as a general computing device.
Some QorIQs, 86xx, some 85xx. Plus, I highly doubt that an Applied Micro 460 based design needs to be that expensive as Acubes design actually is. The chip itself at least doesn't cost several 100 $$$...

[EDanaII]

@ Lou Dias

Ironically, you are addressing (possibly) the only other Amiga/Fiero enthusiast here, Lou. I'm the proud and original owner of a 1988 4cyl standard Fiero. I listed those stats because, as fond as I am of the Fiero, I was unwilling to pay for anything better than that. The more expensive models didn't get me down the road any better than my humble model and the gas mileage was by far better.

And the more expensive X1000 isn't going to compute any better for me than this 500$ Lenovo SL510 I'm currently typing on. So, as fond as I am of Amiga -- my presence here should indicate that -- I'm unwilling to pay 2k for something that I can only, at present, do less on. And I doubt I'm the only one here. 2k for the _illusion_ of better is still an illusion. ("Look mom! The emperor isn't wearing any clothes!")

These rules still apply to an enthusiast market and the Amiga market as they always have.


@ HenryCase:

How do you propose they bring down the price down to $300 for a new machine? This isn't a console market where the hardware can be sold at a loss, and mass market hardware is cheap because it's produced in bulk. I'm sure you know this already, which is why I'm surprised that the 'make it cheaper' is constantly brought up as a solution, it's obvious why the price is high.

First off, I stated that 300$ was my price and that I was probably in the lowest echelon. So, let's compromise and bring the price up a little higher. How about 400$? That's a reasonable price, on par with what's available, reflecting the Amiga's reputations as a failed platform. So, with that as our baseline, it's not that hard to fill. Steve at ClusterUK managed it. Yes, I know AROS is free, but at least Steve is funneling funds back to AROS development.

And then, there's models like this:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=bv1cs3ao&cs=04&dgvcode=ss&c=US&l=EN&dgc=SS&cid=52103&lid=1342491
Or this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Compaq+-+Presario+Desktop+/+AMD+Athlon%26%23153%3B+II+Processor+/+2GB+Memory+/+500GB+Hard+Drive/1254175.p?skuId=1254175&ky=1whxm51gbOgORrn6M8JOUlLjDtR0yY7Rx&cmp=RMX&id=1218243229976
Or even this:
http://netbookprice.net/price-comparison/acer-aspire-one-532h-2588/

Add 150$ to those models and you still have a pretty reasonably priced (and performing) system. All Hyperion has to do is pick one and support it.

If you have a solution, then I'm sure they'll be all ears. x86 isn't an option because OS4 hasn't been ported to x86 (and if they do make an x86 port, expect them to pass on the cost to the Amiga user, who won't be able to afford it and then it's goodnight Vienna), and old Mac hardware will only get you so far (haven't seen a massive increase in the MorphOS user base yet).

But that's where you're wrong. x86 *IS* an option, it's just not the best option given the hole that Hyperion has dug themselves into. Still, getting out of that hole and digging a better one (more likely to find water) is better than just digging the current dry hole deeper.

But, as Kolla has already stated: "I would recommend doing what the MorphOS developers did - that is, release OS4 for old powerpc macs." To which I'll add, I just invested in a used PowerMac (150$), when I invest in MorphOS (150$) then the cost of ownership will be: 300$. Which is more than Hyperion is going to get from me. 2 grand is a whole month's worth of living; I ain't giving it up that easily.

And, as I've already pointed out: "if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3." Lessee... Wii is 200$, so we're talking minimum price of ownership: 350$ and, I dunno... through in a keyboard and mouse for an additional 20?

The options are there even if people don't want to hear them.


@ Karlos

[Raises hand.]

AROS might be free and it has come a long way, but it still needs a lot of polishing. The kind of polishing that would have likely happened if it were a professionally supported OS.

[Karlos]

@ Karlos

[Raises hand.]

AROS might be free and it has come a long way, but it still needs a lot of polishing. The kind of polishing that would have likely happened if it were a professionally supported OS.

Is this on the presumption that this theoretical AmigaOS4.x x86 would have all the features it does now, but runs on x86?

I would suggest that this wouldn't be the case. You'd likely get a version which would have no more support for 68K apps than AROS does now (via UAE) and may not support PPC apps (including some written for 4.x PPC if not still actively developed) at all.

[zylesea]

@ Lou Dias

But, as Kolla has already stated: "I would recommend doing what the MorphOS developers did - that is, release OS4 for old powerpc macs." To which I'll add, I just invested in a used PowerMac (150$), when I invest in MorphOS (150$) then the cost of ownership will be: 300$. Which is more than Hyperion is going to get from me.

You will probably like it. Just had fun tonight with my Efika and th enew OWB release (V1.11).

And, as I've already pointed out: "if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3." Lessee... Wii is 200$, so we're talking minimum price of ownership: 350$ and, I dunno... through in a keyboard and mouse for an additional 20?

The Wii just has too little RAM (IIRC 88 MB), Sony just closed their console. The only remotely viable current console would be the XBox 360 - oh the irony, it must be an MS product...
Anyway, that wouldn't stop me. But so far nobody works on a XBox 360 port. And my biggets wish is still the laptop (I am hoping for the MorphOS Powerbook effort).

[EDanaII]

Concerning the Wii, a fair point, but I still consider it viable. I'm making the assumption it could be hacked. Same is true for the PS3 as I recall some have already hacked Sony's closed door back open. And, of course, I could care less about the "irony" of the Xbox.

Regarding MorphOS, I already like it. I'm using the crippled (non-registered) version. I haven't sprung for the official version yet because I've had the PowerMac for only three weeks and have used it (the Mac) for, maybe, 90 minutes. Still playing... but it is nice and responsive. The only obstacle here is software... but if MorphOS can move enough PowerMacs over to them, software will come. The only question is: how many PowerMacs do they need to move?


@ Karlos

Nope. It's never been on that presumption. However, I've been advocating Amiga on x86 since the Amithlon days. And Amithlon managed to run a large portion of m68k applications (that didn't bang the hardware) without too much issue. So claiming this as an obstacle (including the big/little endian argument) is a little dubious IMHO. As to the PPC legacy stuff? So, if the boat is leaky and threatening to sink, we should stick with it because a couple of guys over there still like it? I hate to be harsh but... maybe we should just find a better boat?

[HenryCase]

@ HenryCase:
First off, I stated that 300$ was my price and that I was probably in the lowest echelon. So, let's compromise and bring the price up a little higher. How about 400$? That's a reasonable price, on par with what's available, reflecting the Amiga's reputations as a failed platform. So, with that as our baseline, it's not that hard to fill. Steve at ClusterUK managed it. Yes, I know AROS is free, but at least Steve is funneling funds back to AROS development.

And then, there's models like this:
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=bv1cs3ao&cs=04&dgvcode=ss&c=US&l=EN&dgc=SS&cid=52103&lid=1342491
Or this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Compaq+-+Presario+Desktop+/+AMD+Athlon%26%23153%3B+II+Processor+/+2GB+Memory+/+500GB+Hard+Drive/1254175.p?skuId=1254175&ky=1whxm51gbOgORrn6M8JOUlLjDtR0yY7Rx&cmp=RMX&id=1218243229976
Or even this:
http://netbookprice.net/price-comparison/acer-aspire-one-532h-2588/

Add 150$ to those models and you still have a pretty reasonably priced (and performing) system. All Hyperion has to do is pick one and support it.

There's a small matter of porting OS4 to x86 before they could support any of those systems you outlined. How long did it take to get from 68k to PPC? Also, consider when that move was made that the market for Amiga was bigger than it is now, potential ROI is even smaller than at the time of the original AInc/Hyperion/Eyetech partnership.

But that's where you're wrong. x86 *IS* an option, it's just not the best option given the hole that Hyperion has dug themselves into. Still, getting out of that hole and digging a better one (more likely to find water) is better than just digging the current dry hole deeper.

What do you propose would cover the cost of moving OS4 to x86? Perhaps a bounty could be set up where we pay the Frieden brothers a living wage for the next few years that it takes to port it. Oh wait, the cost would be astronomical... yet, that's what it would take. OS4 wouldn't be generating much income in the time it took to move to x86, plus you wouldn't be looking at new features, just moving to a cheaper platform. Let's say they both earn $40,000 a year (which is conservative), so x2 for the both of them, $80,000 a year, and let's say it takes 3 years so $80,000 x 3 = $240,000. Now can you seriously imagine the Amiga community generating a bounty of that size when the largest ever Amiga bounty was less than $12,000 (Amizilla)?

Or perhaps, some wealthy outside investor wanted to make it happen. So using the estimate of $240,000, how many new AmigaOS4 owners would it take before the investor saw some financial return? Let's just say that they sold each copy for $100, that's 2400 copies of an OS assuming the cost of distribution was 0 and all the money went to the investor. Sounds reasonable enough, but wait... there's no software for this new OS because all the old OS4 software was written for PPC. Plus, three years have passed and AROS is looking better than ever, is free and open, and supports more hardware.

But, as Kolla has already stated: "I would recommend doing what the MorphOS developers did - that is, release OS4 for old powerpc macs." To which I'll add, I just invested in a used PowerMac (150$), when I invest in MorphOS (150$) then the cost of ownership will be: 300$. Which is more than Hyperion is going to get from me. 2 grand is a whole month's worth of living; I ain't giving it up that easily.

And, as I've already pointed out: "if it must be PPC, then xBox, Wii or PS3." Lessee... Wii is 200$, so we're talking minimum price of ownership: 350$ and, I dunno... through in a keyboard and mouse for an additional 20?

The options are there even if people don't want to hear them.

Moana had potential, it is a shame it wasn't pursued, but even if it was completed you'd still have some Amigans complaining that it was the end of the road. As for consoles, they're closed systems, yes you can hack them but I wouldn't base a commercial OS around exploits that can be closed at any time.

[kolla]

Moana had potential, it is a shame it wasn't pursued, but even if it was completed you'd still have some Amigans complaining that it was the end of the road.

Which is exactly what you have today, with the difference being the number of users and copies of OS4 sold.

[Louis Dias]

@ Lou Dias

Ironically, you are addressing (possibly) the only other Amiga/Fiero enthusiast here, Lou. I'm the proud and original owner of a 1988 4cyl standard Fiero. I listed those stats because, as fond as I am of the Fiero, I was unwilling to pay for anything better than that. The more expensive models didn't get me down the road any better than my humble model and the gas mileage was by far better.

holy poop!  Is the world ending?
I got a G6-6speed in one and a 4.9 caddy v8 with a 5 speed in another...

uh OT

[EDanaII]

I won't tell if you don't, Lou.

You know, I've often played with the idea of getting a v8 Archie for my humble little machine, but... (steering back on topic) ...the price is too much for me despite the 0 to 60 in 4 seconds thrill it would give me.

(Oh, and I've actually mentioned the Fiero to you before, you just never noticed it. I recognize your sign on from Pennock's as well.


@ HenryCase

I'm not proposing anything, Henry. I'm merely laying out the case for Hyperion's survival. Build the X1000, stagnate and likely die. Switch to commodity hardware, grow the user base and have a chance at survival. I fully realize this is a "Kobiyashi Maru" scenario for Hyperion, but of the two scenarios: expensive or cheap only one of them gives the greater chance for survival.

And, yes, I realize that my scenarios are less than perfect but, once again, they still have a greater chance of growing the user base. This should be Hyperion's main priority.

[kedawa]

If the Pandora game system can sell for $350 in such modest quantities, then it has to be possible to create a low-end PPC Amiga for that price, even if it's just a motherboard and CPU.

[ElPolloDiabl]

If the Pandora game system can sell for $350 in such modest quantities, then it has to be possible to create a low-end PPC Amiga for that price, even if it's just a motherboard and CPU.

Arms are cheap, PPC are expensive.
Look at the price of just the SAM motherboard, no extras.

[tone007]

Ironically, you are addressing (possibly) the only other Amiga/Fiero enthusiast here, Lou.

I had two Fieros, an '86 4cyl and an '86 GT.  They were both crap.  Had way more fun with the pair of '87 MR2s.

[Hammer]

Is this on the presumption that this theoretical AmigaOS4.x x86 would have all the features it does now, but runs on x86?

I would suggest that this wouldn't be the case. You'd likely get a version which would have no more support for 68K apps than AROS does now (via UAE) and may not support PPC apps (including some written for 4.x PPC if not still actively developed) at all.

In theory, AROS can be modified for Amithlon's GCC "Big endian" X86 mode.

[Hammer]

I dunno, does AROS PPC run legacy 68K (and some legacy PPC) executables?

I don't recall AROS PPC having AOS4's style 68K emulator....

[Hammer]

As an aside, hands up everybody here that would actually buy an x86 version of AmigaOS considering AROS is already on x86 and is completely free?

Depends if X86 version has the entire "OS4.1".

Anyway, AROS has emumiga. http://emumiga.com/about/

[Piru]

Anyway, AROS has emumiga. http://emumiga.com/about/

Well, I guess that's useful if you want to run the Clock application. Without alarm.

I fear the author is getting lost in his C++ quest (4 months now). I hope I'm wrong though.