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Author Topic: MorphOS on Power Mac G5  (Read 85600 times)

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Offline Karlos

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #239 from previous page: August 04, 2010, 07:22:23 PM »
Quote from: amigadave;573324
Edit:  It is hard for me to believe that this argument about MorphOS on a G5 PowerMac being a waste of time because that much power is not needed for anything we do while running MorphOS.  I can't think of a single post in any forum thread anywhere that I have seen that talks about the X1000 being a waste of time because more power than a 1GHz G4 A1 is all that is needed to do anything on AmigaOS4.x.  Would we be having this discussion if it were AmigaOS4.x being ported to the G5 PowerMac instead of MorphOS2.x??


If you look back, you'll see that I also mention the PA6T in many of the posts that make this point.
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Offline arnljot

Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #240 on: August 04, 2010, 07:42:45 PM »
I'm waiting for a wave of third-hand mac minis when the mos mini owners upgrade :D
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Offline inoel

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #241 on: August 04, 2010, 09:30:10 PM »
MorphOS team why dont you sell recon emac's/powermacs with MorphOS yourselfs ?
 

Offline minator

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #242 on: August 04, 2010, 09:58:30 PM »
Quote from: Piru;573282
"web browsing / flash, emulators" could use GPU acceleration? How?



Flash has GPU acceleration. IE 9 and Firefox are also both getting GPU acceleration.  OpenVG, It has hardware acceleration...

Even Adobe Acrobat has a GPU acceleration option (you might want to avoid it though because it makes it even less reliable then normal).

Since GPUs became programmable people have been experimenting with GPU acceleration for all manner of different apps. This has been going on for years now, it's only now beginning to go mainstream.

It's mostly image related but with OpenCL that could open up, I can easily see audio being accelerated.

Ironically though, GPUs pretty much suck at video acceleration. That's why they have separate hardware blocks for it...
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #243 on: August 04, 2010, 10:06:29 PM »
Quote from: minator;573454
Ironically though, GPUs pretty much suck at video acceleration. That's why they have separate hardware blocks for it...

Well, certain aspects of video decoding do not lend themselves readily to massively parallel processing and overall you end up limited by the slowest step that operates serially. It's not a total loss though, the GPU comes in handy for post processing. In the CUDA SDK, there's a demo of real-time image de-noising that, if the static demo is anything to go by, looks like it might be nice for cleaning up compression artefacts.
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Offline PiruTopic starter

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #244 on: August 05, 2010, 12:46:46 AM »
Quote from: minator;573454
Flash has GPU acceleration.
Usable open source flash doesn't. At least not yet.

Also, I am well aware what CUDA stuff can do. None of the MorphOS boxes is likely ever going to even support hardware which has programmable GPUs, nor would we ever be able to add software support for it.

So really, any acceleration there might be would be limited to 3D pretty much. And this limits the things you can do.
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #245 on: August 05, 2010, 04:12:12 AM »
Quote from: Piru;573475
Usable open source flash doesn't. At least not yet.

Also, I am well aware what CUDA stuff can do. None of the MorphOS boxes is likely ever going to even support hardware which has programmable GPUs, nor would we ever be able to add software support for it.

So really, any acceleration there might be would be limited to 3D pretty much. And this limits the things you can do.

CUDA, since it is Nvidia specific, isn't important to MorphOS (which doesn't support Nvidia video cards, let alone the high end cards CUDA runs on).

And if flash finally gets working well under Linux, I'd hope to see it under MorphOS.

But are we really limited to 3D acceleration? What about video encoding/decoding? On X86 systems, video card acceleration of these functions helps lower CPU load. Isn't there something there that could be done?
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Offline amigadave

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #246 on: August 05, 2010, 05:28:58 AM »
posted by inoel:
Quote
MorphOS team why dont you sell recon emac's/powermacs with MorphOS yourselfs ?

That is not an additional responsibility and time consumer that the Team needs to take on and take away from their time to write improvements to MorphOS and do work on supporting the next target hardware model they are trying to complete.  If any individual, including someone from the MorphOS Dev Team wishes to purchase old G4 Mac's and pre-load the demo version of MorphOS on them to ready them for resale, they are free to do so, but the time required as well as the investment of money and all the potential headaches that could happen when selling used hardware, are probably something none of the Team members want to bring upon themselves.  There have been a couple of MorphZone users that have tried doing this on a very small scale, with just a few machines, but I think they quit when they realized that it is very hard to buy and pay shipping for the used hardware and then sell it to other Amiga users (be they 4.1.2, or 3.1>3.9 users), without losing money, let alone trying to make any profit.  Part of the problem is that the prices for the used G4 Macs varies wildly from one location to another and from one week to another and with their low prices, adding shipping to the cost to get them to a potential buyer can easily make them much more expensive that the buyer could get one for themselves locally.  Lastly, the prices of PPC Mac hardware continue to fall at a fairly fast rate, so if you buy one with the thoughts to sell it to another potential MorphOS buyer, you had better sell it very fast, because the longer it takes you to sell it the higher the risk that you will lose money as the prices of competing PPC Mac sellers may drop below what you have invested in your PPC Macs and you will not be able to get back your money.

posted by arnljot:
Quote
I'm waiting for a wave of third-hand mac minis when the mos mini owners upgrade :D

I don't think you have long to wait as some current G4 MacMini owners are anxious to upgrade to the G4 PowerMac due to the expansion slots they will then have to play with, which is a famous trait of Amiga users, their love to upgrade and play with the configuration of their computers.  I think I am going to probably use my G4 MacMini as my desktop MorphOS2.x machine for as long as it takes until support is released for the G5 PowerMac models.  Then I might sell the Mini, or I might move it into the RV and keep it.

posted by Karlos:
Quote
If you look back, you'll see that I also mention the PA6T in many of the posts that make this point.

Yes, I should have qualified my comment as I was thinking outside of this thread, which for me anyway, is a thread only about MorphOS on the G5 PowerMac, so I have pretty much tried to forget any references about the X1000 and PA6T running AmigaOS4.1.2 (even though I did make a few comments where I stated that the X1000 and PA6T w/AmigaOS4.x, is in the same, or similar situation as MorphOS2.x on the G5 PowerMacs).  I was thinking that I had not seen a similar reaction toward the X1000 being announced.  Yes, many people, from both camps, have made comments that the X1000 may not be a good idea, but for the most part every one of those dissenters have used the price as the number one reason that they are not interested in the X1000, not the argument that the X1000 is not needed because there is no AmigaOS4.x software that needs the power that will come with the production of the X1000.  Maybe I have just missed such threads and there really several such threads and complaints out there, just like the complaints made in this thread.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #247 on: August 05, 2010, 08:07:36 AM »
Quote from: Piru;573475
Usable open source flash doesn't. At least not yet.

Also, I am well aware what CUDA stuff can do. None of the MorphOS boxes is likely ever going to even support hardware which has programmable GPUs, nor would we ever be able to add software support for it.

So really, any acceleration there might be would be limited to 3D pretty much. And this limits the things you can do.


CUDA won't be a prospect for MOS or OS4, since it's utterly dependent on nVidia writing drivers for it.  AMD have been pretty open with the ATI documentation though. Not sure if they've been open enough to expose stream processing details but it may be that OpenCL can work on free ATI drivers - as long as the hardware supports it, of course. AFAIK, this is possible with R700 at least (could be limited programmability for older ones too).
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Offline Karlos

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #248 on: August 05, 2010, 08:15:11 AM »
Quote from: amigadave;573500
Yes, I should have qualified my comment as I was thinking outside of this thread, which for me anyway, is a thread only about MorphOS on the G5 PowerMac, so I have pretty much tried to forget any references about the X1000 and PA6T running AmigaOS4.1.2 (even though I did make a few comments where I stated that the X1000 and PA6T w/AmigaOS4.x, is in the same, or similar situation as MorphOS2.x on the G5 PowerMacs).  I was thinking that I had not seen a similar reaction toward the X1000 being announced.  Yes, many people, from both camps, have made comments that the X1000 may not be a good idea, but for the most part every one of those dissenters have used the price as the number one reason that they are not interested in the X1000, not the argument that the X1000 is not needed because there is no AmigaOS4.x software that needs the power that will come with the production of the X1000.  Maybe I have just missed such threads and there really several such threads and complaints out there, just like the complaints made in this thread.


Actually, most of the posts I made about the PA6T being underutilised by software were in this thread, side by side with the G5.

However, I must reiterate that I'm not actually against G5/PA6T, I actually think it's pretty cool that they are options. The whole issue came up as a consequence of earlier posts in the thread that were attempting to start another red v blue fight on the point of the G5 2GHz outperforming PA6T. As I said, so what? It isn't as if you can actually leverage the full potential of either with current amiga software.
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Offline amigadave

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #249 on: August 05, 2010, 09:10:27 AM »
@ Karlos,

Fair enough!  Not much use beating this horse any further until the X1000 is selling to the general public and if/when support for the G5 PowerMac is released by the MorphOS Development Team.  Then we can go back to fighting with our biased comparisons of each computer and OS in real earnest.  :lol:
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Offline KimmoK

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #250 on: August 05, 2010, 12:49:55 PM »
Quote from: minator;573454
I can easily see audio being accelerated.


Old news. Already OCS Amigas could mix Audio with GFX Blitter. ;-)
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #251 on: August 05, 2010, 01:59:26 PM »
Quote from: KimmoK;573526
Old news. Already OCS Amigas could mix Audio with GFX Blitter. ;-)


Anyone know why Paula samples can be played in >28 khz IF a dblscan screenmode is used? I use to rip CD audio and play it back on an '040  A1200 @ 44.1 khz, @ 14 bit-sounded brilliant.
 

Offline PiruTopic starter

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #252 on: August 05, 2010, 02:15:09 PM »
Quote from: stefcep2;573539
Anyone know why Paula samples can be played in >28 khz IF a dblscan screenmode is used? I use to rip CD audio and play it back on an '040  A1200 @ 44.1 khz, @ 14 bit-sounded brilliant.

Audio HW can process 16bits at a time per horizontal tick (per channel). With PAL and NTSC modes the horizontal frequency is 15,75 kHz. Since the sampledata is 8bit it means 2 samples are processed. This gives the theoretical limit of around 30kHz.

DBLScan modes double (roughly) the horizontal frequency, and thus also the limit for the audio playback frequency.
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #253 on: August 05, 2010, 02:51:36 PM »
Quote from: Piru;573541
Audio HW can process 16bits at a time per horizontal tick (per channel). With PAL and NTSC modes the horizontal frequency is 15,75 kHz. Since the sampledata is 8bit it means 2 samples are processed. This gives the theoretical limit of around 30kHz.

DBLScan modes double (roughly) the horizontal frequency, and thus also the limit for the audio playback frequency.


Thanks Piru!
 

Offline Iggy

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Re: MorphOS on Power Mac G5
« Reply #254 on: August 06, 2010, 11:35:40 PM »
I doubt we'll see OpenCL support under MorphOS because of the GPU requirements. Even once G5 support is released, the majority of Powermac G5s have an AGP video slot.
That is one advantage the X1000 running AmigaOS4 will have over a G5 Mac running MorphOS.
I understand that a driver for the R700 is already under development for AmigaOS. So, you might stand a chance of getting OpenCL support.
It likely that when the G5 is supported a lot of users are going to choose a Radeon 9600 video card. Their cheap, faster than current cards supported by MorphOS and a 9600 was shown at Essen running in a G4 Powermac.
While that GPU is somewhat dated, it still should provide a nice boost compared to something like my current Radeon 9250 (especially when paired with a much more powerful processor).

So, while we've spent so much time focusing on the relative merits of each others future top processors, each sysyem will differ in other areas and each system will offer specific advantages..

I believe MorphOS on a G5 Mac will offer good value in a powerful Amiga like PPC computer. In fact with up to four cores and 8gigs of memory, its got more power than MorphOS can use. Also, while AmigaOS user hate to hear us repeat this, MorphOS as a slightly more mature product performs many operations quicker than AmigaOS. It will give our diehard fanatic MorphOS users (the people who wouldn't use anything else) a product that won't leave them with X1000 envy.

The X1000 is completely new. While MorphOS focuses on supporting hardware that is primarily second hand, in the future the majority of
the platforms available to buy to run AmigaOS4 will be brand new. Also, featuring a more modern expansion bus the X1000 will be able to utilize expansion cards that won't be available to MorphOS users as well as more modern video cards. For people willing to pay the premium, this system will offer features unavailable elsewhere.

Its going to be interesting, but I'd be willing to bet that when these systems become available to the users we're going to find that they perform somewhat on par with each other and are more similar than they are dissimilar.

If there some contention between both camp, so be it. One thing I think we can all agree on is that its nice to see so many new developments in our market. Especially the new high power systems. Whether you're blue or red, these new introductions are bound to be good news (even if you're of the opinion, as many of us are, that it still makes more sense to move to a mainstream system).
Hey Amigans are stubborn, opinionated and a little bit fanatical. Even if you're sure that we'll never climb out of our current hobby machine status (something I myself am unsure about) ain't it cool that our community is still here and new products are being introduced?

And, you know, the thing that amazes me most is that virtually everything that has survived and continues to advance was developed by and for the people who have supported and maintained our community after long years of failures and broken promises by multiple companies.

Hey! Pat yourself on the back Amiga mutant. In the long run, even without a major backer, current developments prove your faith in your beliefs was not misplaced.

Finally, as has been pointed out, we are now poised to move from hardware that is entirely adequate to new systems that have more power than we need.

If my past experience with other systems over more than 30 years is any indication, once we have this hardware we'll find applications for the extra power.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2010, 11:49:39 PM by Iggy »
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