Given x1000 news is everywhere.....but nonchalance prevails

[the_leander]

Am going to leave it there for a bit as we're editing based on edits here now and it's making the whole flow of conversation a bit batty.

[DAX]

As I told you you should visit AW and other sites, the "vision" Amiga.org is giving you is quite distorted as far as your conception of "the rest of the community".
Many did grow up professionally with AmigaOS I had 040-RTG-and more, we want our personal back, we don't think at Amiga as a gaming console as many classic aficionados confine it to be.

[the_leander]

As I told you you should visit AW and other sites, the "vision" Amiga.org is giving you is quite distorted as far as your conception of "the rest of the community".

I refuse to give patronage to sites that actively help in the commission of fraud. I'm kinda funny like that. Oh I'll see the occasional thread over there when it pops up on the bunny, but as far as I'm concerned every single mod who was involved during the A1 debacle aught to have been brought up on charges and the site shut down.

On this my view is non negotiable.

Many did grow up professionally with AmigaOS I had 040-RTG-and more, we want our personal back, we don't think at Amiga as a gaming console as many classic aficionados confine it to be.

I'm too much of a utilitarian to view it as much more than a good way of getting an education on how computers work in both hard and software terms to write it off as just a jumped up game console. But at the same time the view that some people seem to have (that the X1000 is somehow going to make the Amiga a player in the market) just strikes me as a bit silly.

[Fab]

Fab, that wasn't directed solely at you and you certainly weren't the first person to say that, either.

So it was *also* directed at me, which justifies my answer.

Now, let's get on to subject matter. He can "he's in a better position, 'cos he can run AROS and you can't (sic)". Cop-out. You can't go get a low-end, second-hand PC to run AROS? You're telling me you don't have a machine that could run AROS already? I find that hard to believe, since 98.9% of the world pretty much have a PC compatible machine in their house. Since you wish to go back to making up excuses, might I remind you that BTBuilder was linux only and was ported to Windows. Dennis uses Linux exclusively, but his wife has a Windows box. So, he used her machine to port his code, even though he doesn't (have) "better knowledge about the OS and its specificities (sic)". I believe that is called Pot, Kettle, Black.

The only PCs I use are dedicated to work, and i don't own any PC. My pegasos and mac mini are my main machines at home and my basement doesn't have room for more. I still have access to a distant linux server which allows me crosscompiling stuff for MorphOS (compiling webkit takes ages on a G4), but it wouldn't allow me to run AROS anyway. So there's no way for me to crosscompile for AROS or OS4 (68k would still be possible, though, but tedious, given the SDK state).

Anyway, the point isn't even there. It's already more than enough to have amigaos/morphos/aros code ready to be compiled for each other flavour (with very minor modifications, most of the time). It's not like porting between different amiga flavours requires starting the port from scratch. So, "use the good tool for the job", or rather, ask someone familiar with the target system to complete the port for his preferred system, it's much more efficient that way. I appreciate some people can afford compiling their programs for the 4 amiga flavours: jahc does that with wookiechat (using a crosscompiler on windows, i believe), and let me tell you it's a tedious task, from what he told me. If his source code was opened, i'm sure he'd rather like my approach, which is anyway the same used for most large opensource projects like mame, mplayer, webkit, wesnoth, scummvm, and many many others... Some programers develop the core, and then you have porters for each supported platform. Would you expect the main programmers to deal with the tedious task of porting themselves their baby to every OS out there?
Besides, delegating work is a nice way to create your so-called "camaradery", instead of keeping all the "fame" for yourself.

Finally, never once did I mention your name. Never once did I quote you verbatim. Never once did I imply anything about you, but here you come running, the charge of the Light Brigade, to  "defend" yourself, to your own chagrin against a "shame" to your "honor" that had nothing to do with you, nor was it a direct attack at your person. You made a volatile assumption, biased I might add, since from your previous post, it's obvious you have personal issues with me, blindly missing the point I was trying to make.

This, people, is exactly what I'm talking about.

I just love your dramatic style.

[Pyromania]

I'm really really upset that the X1000 only comes with a 1 Yottabyte SSD. I want a 2 Yottabyte SSD.

[mbrantley]

I'm keeping track of all the developments in the Amiga market. Currently, its fascinating how much development is going on. While I'm skeptical that all this effort will pull us out of the hobbyist market into real competition will current PCs, I'm loving all the new developments.

This is no time for us to be fractious. Against great odds we're still here and growing.

Ain't that the truth? These are sure interesting times in the world of post-Commodore Amiga. It's way more interesting following these developments than trying to keep up with lawsuits.

[klx300r]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piru  
That's your opinion. Many don't share it.

I understand if you like Aros or Morphos but it is a FACT, not an opinion, that they are NOT AmigaDOS / Amiga OS.

+ 1 :afro:

[mikrucio]

Well im getting one.

[Methuselas]

So it was *also* directed at me, which justifies my answer.

This part of your post is the only one I'm going to touch. Originally, I thought that it was the fact that English wasn't your primary language. Then, I realized that you, are in fact, just trying to goad me into a fight, which just isn't going to happen. After this, I'm going to simply ignore you and your posts.


You, verbatim in toto:

"Since you're explicitely referring to one of my previous answers in some other thread, may i remind you once again that I gave the source code of MPlayer MorphOS for AROS, and helped Deadwood to port it (who was much better placed than me to port it, since he can actually run AROS, and also has better knowledge about the OS and its specificities)?"

Me, verbatim in toto:

"Sure people are all, "You're welcome to port my code, if you'd like", but there also saying "but I'm not going to do it". I understand why they say, do and feel like that, but the "camps" refuse to just say "hey, we're different, but that just encourages evolution, let's work together and add compatibility between the three to allow even faster development". They would rather pick the other apart, like bitter siblings."

and

"Fab, that wasn't directed solely at you and you certainly weren't the first person to say that, either.


Saying ""Since you're explicitly (I despise atrocious spelling) referring to one of my previous answers in some other thread," when what I said "explicitly" was "Sure people are all, "You're welcome to port my code, if you'd like", but there also saying "but I'm not going to do it" is not being positive. It's called attempting to mislead people. You wish to feel validated on the simple fact that I called you out.

Since when was "people" a pseudonym for "Fab". I made a broad, generalized statement. You, sir, made it an outright attack on your person, or should I say your "Fab", when it never was. You just made my point perfectly clear when you said Jahc takes the *TIME* to port his code to *ALL* the flavors, while you state that it was a "tedious task from what he told you". That means, you've never bothered to even try. Jahc, has Amiga camaraderie. You sir, do not.

I believe that this is game, set and match. I'd say it's been a pleasure talking to you, but not really. :laughing:

[mbrantley]

Well im getting one.

Most likely I will too, so long as life doesn't throw any unexpected hurdles my way. The last few days I find myself looking around the house for stuff to sell to help feed the fund. Fun times now and fun times ahead, as far as I'm concerned.

Look, everybody has his idea of the proper course, and it seems each course is being followed by one camp or another. We have new hardware addons for classic systems. We have emulation using x86 systems and also an Amiga-like OS being actively developed for x86 architecture. We have two flavors of OS being actively developed for PPC hardware -- one using cheap and readily available used Macs and the other using costlier new hardware. In the latter, there's a low-end option and soon a high-end one, though with a big price. There's Minimig and an AGA variant and surely something will also come of the NatAmi project.

Really, it seems like every course is being followed. Sure, it'd be nice in some ways if we were all pulling in the same direction. But this way maybe ensures we'll be around in some fashion going forward. We'll never hit the mainstream again, but at least we have our eggs in a lot of baskets.

[Pyromania]

@mbrantley

Yup

[Fab]

This part of your post is the only one I'm going to touch. Originally, I thought that it was the fact that English wasn't your primary language. Then, I realized that you, are in fact, just trying to goad me into a fight, which just isn't going to happen. After this, I'm going to simply ignore you and your posts.

Since you're supposed to ignore my post, this is probably useless, but there's no reason I would let you believe you made a point like that, anyway.
 
You're just totally dishonest by ignoring explicitly (sorry for committing such an atrocious spelling mistake before, I hope I didn't cause a permanent damage to your brain) the part of my message where I actually explained why I can't cross-compile for all the other platforms, and why most other projects solve this issue by delegating ports to... porters. You're also completely ignoring any intermediate effort between no cooperation at all and an actual port. And unlike you, I was honest by taking jahc's example, and also explained supporting all flavours can be unpractical for him as well, especially in the testing area (which means some bugs can often slip in the platforms he can't directly test).

And yes, I perfectly understood you didn't only refer to me, but since we had this argument a couple weeks ago, it made great sense to discuss it again, since you blindly refused to understand last time. I was somehow hoping you would try this time.

And to end this useless discussion, I really feel in your message a vast complex of superiority and scorn towards non-native English writers (or maybe everyone, actually), but I guess this is a good way for you to make an easy point when you don't have any valid argument.

I believe that this is game, set and match. I'd say it's been a pleasure talking to you, but not really. :laughing:

If that can make you feel better. This is a cheap medication, at least.

Oh, I almost forgot to finish my post the same arrogant way you did: LOL.

[Methuselas]

Really, it seems like every course is being followed. Sure, it'd be nice in some ways if we were all pulling in the same direction. But this way maybe ensures we'll be around in some fashion going forward. We'll never hit the mainstream again, but at least we have our eggs in a lot of baskets.

When I say it, I get flamed, but you're right. However, there's one part in which you are wrong.

There *IS* a chance, albeit an *EXTREMELY* small one, for the Amiga to once again hit the "mainstream" and I'll tell you why.

Google Chrome.

Microsoft is no longer the "end all, be all" of the desktop market. Apple is making small bites at the market (which is something I've been saying Amiga should have been doing for years). Steve Jobs was smart. He created the Iphone and the Ipod, which after years of effort, has become the "staple" of what consumers consider "mainstream". Seriously. Everyone I know wants an Iphone and or wants/has an Ipod. Since the migration to X86, Apple is slowly encroaching into the PC marketplace, because people are tired of Windows. Linux is also becoming a contender due to Ubuntu, as well as increasing software support. I know *TONS* of people that are anxiously waiting for Google Chrome. This is no longer a Windows Market.

Amiga could make a dent in this market, simply by name only, due to the fact that a *LOT* of IT guys, Animators, Game Developers, etc. *REMEMBER* the name. They may not remember the Amiga in its heyday, but they remember the name. Why else would Bill McEwen be interested in it? He knew that for all the Amiga IPs, it was the *NAME* that was most important. The problem is, he knew next to nothing about marketing, economics or running a business. Here's the problem, however.

There's no market base and there's no reason for anyone who's *NOT* an "Amigan" (a term I now use apathetically) to even bother with AROS, OS4 or MorphOS, due to the simple fact that there's nothing the Amiga "flavors" can do that Windows, OSX or Linux cannot do cheaper and more effectively. There is *ZERO* incentive for anyone to use any of the said "flavors", other than nostalgia. Even if one were interested in using one of the Amiga "alternatives" all it would take is a single *LOOK* at any of the current Amiga Forums to have them walk away in disgust, due to the infighting amongst the "community".

There's AROS.exec for the AROS fans. MorphZone is for the MorphOS fans. AmigaWorld.net is for the OS4 fans and Amigans.net is for the over-zealous OS4 fans who took it to an extreme. Amiga.org, which to my knowledge, is the *OLDEST* Amiga Forum on the interwebs still in existence is supportive of all three "next gen" Amiga operating systems as well as Classic 3.9, but there seems to be more fighting here, than anywhere else and it's not surprising. Amiga.org is the most *LIBERAL* of all Amiga sites and once someone gets banned elsewhere, they come here.

The *ONLY* way that the Amiga is going to survive in any shape or form, beyond being classified as a "hobby OS" and to not be ridiculed on just about every site I visit (Slashdot is a good example) is once *ALL* the camps begin working together and the developers begin coding or porting all the essential applications that *EVERY* modern OS provides. Whichever Amiga "flavor" has a working, modern browser, with flash support, a fully working Java port, Email clients, etc. *FIRST* is the "chosen successor" of Classic 3.1 and *NOT* who had "access to the original code". We're not going to go anywhere, until all the petty bickering stops completely.

I sincerely wish that I had the power within me to end this infighting, once and for all. Had I the money, I would have purchased the licenses to the Amiga IPs *years* ago and worked with *ALL* the Amiga camps to provide the most robust Amiga operating system the world has ever seen. AROS would have been the X86 version and both MorphOS *AND* OS4 would have survived as PPC operating systems, with each version having the *SAME* API, using the *SAME* GUI overlay, providing the *SAME* user experience, just on different platforms. I wouldn't have been in it for the money, 'cos right now, there just *ISN'T* any......

My concern was to get the name recognized again, to pass developer systems (for free, mind you) to companies like Autodesk, Adobe, Sun Microsystems, Corel, Fractal Designs, etc. in the hopes that they would port their products to the Amiga operating systems and to get the game support that the Windows, OSX and Linux operating systems appreciate. If I had the money, I would have *EATEN* the cost to provide this, not because I wanted to make money, but because I *LOVE* the Workbench (YES, that's what I believe it should be called, period) *MORE* than any operating system I have ever used and *BELIEVE* that it could still make an impact. All of you need to pray that I win the lottery one day, because if I ever did, *THIS* is what the money would be spent on.

So yes, I too, am a "zealot", but for the *SPIRIT* of the Amiga and what it could once do, instead of the various camps so many of you have chosen. I care not of your camp, I only care that you wish to see the Amiga survive and to see it flourish.

So many of you, however, seem to have lost your way.......

[mcostanza]

Because not many people seem impressed regardless of price. So what is it people would really want from a new machine bearing the Amiga logo on it?

1 Do you wan't the equivalent of the A1000 ie pricey but technically light years ahead of everything else for the price of a top end Mac/PC octa-core CPUd desktop? A machine so powerful that you could write games in BASIC/C that exceed PS3/360 games technically but will cost a lot.

or

2 would you just like something that fills the role the A500 did, ie play the same sort of games due to similar technical abilities as the most advanced consoles on sale at the time?

Any new advanced Amiga hardware has to keep in lock step with an Operating System. If new advanced Amiga hardware is being developed along with new versions of the AmigaOS (4.X) then I would be in. I would buy one. If we are talking about developing new advanced Amiga hardware with no tie in with new versions of an AmigaOS then the project will be DOA. Developers need both new hardware and new OS features to develop to.

Regards,

[Terminills]

@Fab

Also don't forget at one point jahc was thinking about dropping Aros support because of some of the issues he was having.   I'm not sure if this is still the case tho.  

Tim

[TheBilgeRat]

When I say it, I get flamed, but you're right. However, there's one part in which you are wrong.

There *IS* a chance, albeit an *EXTREMELY* small one, for the Amiga to once again hit the "mainstream" and I'll tell you why.

Google Chrome.

Microsoft is no longer the "end all, be all" of the desktop market. Apple is making small bites at the market (which is something I've been saying Amiga should have been doing for years). Steve Jobs was smart. He created the Iphone and the Ipod, which after years of effort, has become the "staple" of what consumers consider "mainstream". Seriously. Everyone I know wants an Iphone and or wants/has an Ipod. Since the migration to X86, Apple is slowly encroaching into the PC marketplace, because people are tired of Windows. Linux is also becoming a contender due to Ubuntu, as well as increasing software support. I know *TONS* of people that are anxiously waiting for Google Chrome. This is no longer a Windows Market.

Amiga could make a dent in this market, simply by name only, due to the fact that a *LOT* of IT guys, Animators, Game Developers, etc. *REMEMBER* the name. They may not remember the Amiga in its heyday, but they remember the name. Why else would Bill McEwen be interested in it? He knew that for all the Amiga IPs, it was the *NAME* that was most important. The problem is, he knew next to nothing about marketing, economics or running a business. Here's the problem, however.

There's no market base and there's no reason for anyone who's *NOT* an "Amigan" (a term I now use apathetically) to even bother with AROS, OS4 or MorphOS, due to the simple fact that there's nothing the Amiga "flavors" can do that Windows, OSX or Linux cannot do cheaper and more effectively. There is *ZERO* incentive for anyone to use any of the said "flavors", other than nostalgia. Even if one were interested in using one of the Amiga "alternatives" all it would take is a single *LOOK* at any of the current Amiga Forums to have them walk away in disgust, due to the infighting amongst the "community".

There's AROS.exec for the AROS fans. MorphZone is for the MorphOS fans. AmigaWorld.net is for the OS4 fans and Amigans.net is for the over-zealous OS4 fans who took it to an extreme. Amiga.org, which to my knowledge, is the *OLDEST* Amiga Forum on the interwebs still in existence is supportive of all three "next gen" Amiga operating systems as well as Classic 3.9, but there seems to be more fighting here, than anywhere else and it's not surprising. Amiga.org is the most *LIBERAL* of all Amiga sites and once someone gets banned elsewhere, they come here.

The *ONLY* way that the Amiga is going to survive in any shape or form, beyond being classified as a "hobby OS" and to not be ridiculed on just about every site I visit (Slashdot is a good example) is once *ALL* the camps begin working together and the developers begin coding or porting all the essential applications that *EVERY* modern OS provides. Whichever Amiga "flavor" has a working, modern browser, with flash support, a fully working Java port, Email clients, etc. *FIRST* is the "chosen successor" of Classic 3.1 and *NOT* who had "access to the original code". We're not going to go anywhere, until all the petty bickering stops completely.

I sincerely wish that I had the power within me to end this infighting, once and for all. Had I the money, I would have purchased the licenses to the Amiga IPs *years* ago and worked with *ALL* the Amiga camps to provide the most robust Amiga operating system the world has ever seen. AROS would have been the X86 version and both MorphOS *AND* OS4 would have survived as PPC operating systems, with each version having the *SAME* API, using the *SAME* GUI overlay, providing the *SAME* user experience, just on different platforms. I wouldn't have been in it for the money, 'cos right now, there just *ISN'T* any......

My concern was to get the name recognized again, to pass developer systems (for free, mind you) to companies like Autodesk, Adobe, Sun Microsystems, Corel, Fractal Designs, etc. in the hopes that they would port their products to the Amiga operating systems and to get the game support that the Windows, OSX and Linux operating systems appreciate. If I had the money, I would have *EATEN* the cost to provide this, not because I wanted to make money, but because I *LOVE* the Workbench (YES, that's what I believe it should be called, period) *MORE* than any operating system I have ever used and *BELIEVE* that it could still make an impact. All of you need to pray that I win the lottery one day, because if I ever did, *THIS* is what the money would be spent on.

So yes, I too, am a "zealot", but for the *SPIRIT* of the Amiga and what it could once do, instead of the various camps so many of you have chosen. I care not of your camp, I only care that you wish to see the Amiga survive and to see it flourish.

So many of you, however, seem to have lost your way.......

Quoted for +a billion awesome.