Given x1000 news is everywhere.....but nonchalance prevails

[the_leander]

@The_Leander
I'm not saying it's the prodigal son, only responding to "classic" users that there would've not have been any fabled chipset Amiga machine. And by the way, hombre was WAY behind in schedule, Haynie said:

Hombre was a last ditch effort to try to get some value out of AAA which by the estimates of the day would have been at best on a par with PCs of the day and at worst a generation behind. To be clear: Hombre was built upon the ruins of the AAA hardware.

which basically mean all you got there is the AAA situation all over again, too little too late.
The whole chipset idea was to be scrapped as there were graphic processing units manufacturers pumping out new designs every 3 months back then (where there were around 10 different makers).

Look fella, I lived through this. There is very little you can tell me about what I saw with my own eyes first hand. I'm not some johnny come lately who bought their first Amiga around the time of OS3.9's release. I was there from 1989 onwards.

At the end of the day the X1000 is still more Amiga than anything else

Only if you define Amiga as grossly overpriced, underperforming and tied to a CPU arch that the rest of the desktop world ditched nearly a decade ago.

the barebone mobo allow to upgrade several parts in case you upgrade the CPU, (instead of having just a CPU change and keep the old controllers)

And that is different to every PC ever made since the XT, how, exactly?

Xena could lead to nice ideas, it can still produce some nice Int expansions (XMP), and is something more (not something less) that adds in to the fun.

It's a 100Mbit controller with 64k of onboard memory, no control lines to access anything else and being run on a board whose OS lacks the tools to allow more than single threaded operations.

No matter how you put it, old chipsets are (and were) no more and this is as good as it gets for now.

That is a matter of opinion. One which isn't shared by many.

I underlined that, because both Varisys and A-Eon hinted at this being a beginning not an an end, and since we are just a few months after the settlement it's a nice start, way better than anything we would have seen from C= which as you said, it would have been absolutely nothing

I didn't say that. We would have had nice shiny new computers running a bombproof OS (WinNT was a far superior system to the win9x range most people used during the 90's) on extensable affortable hardware,  without a zillion and one fantasists running around ripping off the community left right and centre, backed up by sychophants too stupid to know they were being conned.

( just some Wintel clones running NT,

Which part of they were marrying up AAA with a PA-RISC wasn't clear? Not intel, PA-RISC.

yes no Hombre, as it was already obsolete while in highly unfinished state,

As a games console it might have given both the Saturn and PS1 a damn good run for their money.

and would've been scrapped for some cheaper and more performing GPU)

Eventually probably, or maybe buying out one of the dozen or so companies producing these shiny new wiz bang GPUs.

[DAX]

@the_leander
Look I leaved the Amiga scene around 96/97 (ah, bought my A2000 in 1988 )  but my business were GPUs (I dealt with Elsa and 3Dlabs) so let me tell you, HOMBRE might have been on par with certain options day one if it made day one, even less options after 3 months, and dead obsolete after a few more months and that's ONLY IF it existed (read: it NEVER existed, wasn't even close to completion).
What part of "it wasn't completed and thus it would have been surpassed several folds if they continued to drag on it" you do not understand? ()

Look I'm tired, I will repeat again the x1000 is a premium machine aimed at developers (and Power users with no budget constraints).
it is not uderpowered at all for an Amiga machine, it actually sports a better than G5 CPU, and when you buy it you are not searching a bargain,+ mainstream is not a target.

Let me just say (and I'm finished) that those that will buy it will not do so with your money, so you may relax a little bit

[gazgod]

@the_leander

Look I'm tired, I will repeat again the x1000 is a premium machine aimed at developers (and Power users with no budget constraints).
it is not uderpowered at all for an Amiga machine, it actually sports a better than G5 CPU, and when you buy it you are not searching a bargain,+ mainstream is not a target.

Doesn't matter how many times you repeat it, it does not make it true.

Power users != Amiga users.

What applications are these power users going to run? Blender? Firefox?

Let me just say (and I'm finished).......

Hoof**kingray

[the_leander]

but my business were GPUs (I dealt with Elsa and 3Dlabs) so let me tell you, HOMBRE might have been on par with certain options day one if it made day one, even less options after 3 months

Which part of your "gpu business" dealt with the console market, exactly?

Playstation 1, released 1994 was still being actively developed for some 10 years after its initial launch and is one of the most popular games consoles ever to have been sold.

Do you think for one second that the PS1 had state of the art graphics even a week after its release? No, it didn't. Did it make a blind bit of difference to it's success? Not in the slightest.

You've tried repeatedly to conflate AAAs target market (mainstream computing) with Hombres (a games console concept), you can stop now.

What part of "it wasn't completed and thus it would have been surpassed several folds if they continued to drag on it" you do not understand? ()

In the computer market, sure, which is why AAA and your "future amiga" got canned. But as a games console the system would have been a fine competitor. I'm well aware of the fact that Commodore folded, but I'm not the one claiming that the Hyperion (with all the crap they've pulled over the years) and an as yet untested and unproven AEON are better for the Amiga market than Commodore.

Look I'm tired, I will repeat again the x1000 is a premium machine aimed at developers (and Power users with no budget constraints).

Power users? Where? Seriously where are these mystical power users with more money than sense all going to mysteriously appear from? And even if they do, as gazgod points out, wtf are they going to run on it? An Alpha of Firefox and Blender simply do not cut it!

it is not uderpowered at all for an Amiga machine, it actually sports a better than G5 CPU, and when you buy it you are not searching a bargain,+ mainstream is not a target.

If your offering to these mythical power users is an early firefox port and blender, the question then is, why bother with OS4 when you can do that faster for a tenth of the price on a PC?

Let me just say (and I'm finished) that those that will buy it will not do so with your money, so you may relax a little bit

I'm not upset in the slightest, just bemused.

[DAX]

Which part of your "gpu business" dealt with the console market, exactly?
Playstation 1, released 1994 was still being actively developed for some  10 years after its initial launch and is one of the most popular games  consoles ever to have been sold.

Do you think for one second that the PS1 had state of the art graphics  even a week after its release? No, it didn't. Did it make a blind bit of  difference to it's success? Not in the slightest.

You've tried repeatedly to conflate AAAs target market (mainstream  computing) with Hombres (a games console concept), you can stop now.

1st) I was taking in consideration your fabled HP-Hombre WinNT computer (which might have dealt with GPUs very much),
2nd)You might be unaware that GPUs at the time derived from SGI technology papers and that Nintendo64 (same generation-1996) uses one of those GPUs for openGL acceleration.
In 1998 the Dreamcast came out using a PowerVR GPU. (but again I had in mind your "phantomatic" Hombre computer there, read more about consoles below).

In the computer market, sure, which is why AAA and your "future amiga" got canned. But as a games console the system would have been a fine competitor. I'm well aware of the fact that Commodore folded, but I'm not the one claiming that the Hyperion (with all the crap they've pulled over the years) and an as yet untested and unproven AEON are better for the Amiga market than Commodore.

Sure, and I said that it was so late they would've dragged it until it was probably 1 year earlier than DC if C= didn't fold (which would have kicked its a*rse big time not to mention PCs were getting Nivida love by that time). If it was released in time sure, but I never argued about it, go re-read what i wrote, all I said was, they were "late" which is a fact regardless of C= status, and by time it would have been ready for "REAL" it would have been obsolete.

Power users? Where? Seriously where are these mystical power users with more money than sense all going to mysteriously appear from? And even if they do, as gazgod points out, wtf are they going to run on it? An Alpha of Firefox and Blender simply do not cut it!

I still get the impression you are somewhat exited...
Anyway (@Gazgod too) they have already 150 people booked for 100 beta systems so they will have to discard 50 of them, but try to understand once and for all a simple fact: all they plan, is to sell a limited number of machines, get their money back+some and re-invest.
That's it.
You should visit other sites every once in a while you will meet many of this guys...(not to mention all those that solely post in their own country due to language barrier).

If your offering to these mythical power users is an early firefox port and blender, the question then is, why bother with OS4 when you can do that faster for a tenth of the price on a PC?

Enthusiast with enough money or will do it just for fun (early adopters type), and they will be the first to enjoy what the developers will do with the machine.

[Methuselas]

Since you're explicitely referring to one of my previous answers in some other thread, may i remind you once again that I gave the source code of MPlayer MorphOS for AROS, and helped Deadwood to port it (who was much better placed than me to port it, since he can actually run AROS, and also has better knowledge about the OS and its specificities)? I also gave MAME MorphOS sources to another AROS developer, who managed to port it successfully. I can also "call out for bullshit as soon as i see it".

I would do the same for OWB on AROS, if someone motivated enough volunteered to port it. It's not a question of refusing to port it... It's a question of doing it properly.

On the other hand, i would have a serious problem passing my code to people that would get donations (or even commercial outcome) issued from my work (especially since i refuse them).

Fab, that wasn't directed solely at you and you certainly weren't the first person to say that, either. My simple point being, there needs to be a camaraderie between the camps for the further benefit of all the "flavors". Offering up code to allow people to port it, while noble, doesn't get it cross-compiled, nor does it get apps that *ARE* needed to the Amiga community.

Now, let's get on to subject matter. He can "he's in a better position, 'cos he can run AROS and you can't (sic)". Cop-out. You can't go get a low-end, second-hand PC to run AROS? You're telling me you don't have a machine that could run AROS already? I find that hard to believe, since 98.9% of the world pretty much have a PC compatible machine in their house. Since you wish to go back to making up excuses, might I remind you that BTBuilder was linux only and was ported to Windows. Dennis uses Linux exclusively, but his wife has a Windows box. So, he used her machine to port his code, even though he doesn't (have) "better knowledge about the OS and its specificities (sic)". I believe that is called Pot, Kettle, Black.

Finally, never once did I mention your name. Never once did I quote you verbatim. Never once did I imply anything about you, but here you come running, the charge of the Light Brigade, to  "defend" yourself, to your own chagrin against a "shame" to your "honor" that had nothing to do with you, nor was it a direct attack at your person. You made a volatile assumption, biased I might add, since from your previous post, it's obvious you have personal issues with me, blindly missing the point I was trying to make.

This, people, is exactly what I'm talking about.

[illy5603]

That's your opinion. Many don't share it.

I understand if you like Aros or Morphos but it is a FACT, not an opinion, that they are NOT AmigaDOS / Amiga OS.

[the_leander]

1st) I was taking in consideration your fabled HP-Hombre WinNT computer (which might have dealt with GPUs very much),
2nd)You might be unaware that GPUs at the time derived from SGI technology papers and that Nintendo64 (same generation-1996) uses one of those GPUs for openGL acceleration.
In 1998 the Dreamcast came out using a PowerVR GPU. (but again I had in mind your "phantomatic" Hombre computer there, read more about consoles below).

And both of those systems were thoroughly pwnt by Playstation 1 in terms of sales.

Going back to the Hombre, the only reason I brought it up at all was because you kept banging on about a canned next gen Amiga from C= whose guts went into what would have been Hombre and how the X1000 was some kind of spiritual successor to it.

And nothing else.

Sure, and I said that it was so late they would've dragged it until it was probably 1 year earlier than DC if C= didn't fold

Citation needed. Note that work had started on the chipset back around the same time as AGA was released, are you seriously going to sit there and tell me it would have taken longer to produce AAA than it did OCS?

I still get the impression you are somewhat exited...

I'm excited about many things. The forthcoming MiniMig-AGA is one of those things. The introduction of relatively cheap dual Atom-ION based all in one units like the Asus I linked to a while back has my interest as well.

The X1000, like every other "next gen" Amiga has filled me with a sense of both dread and pity. Dread because of the inevitable crapfests between the two camps. Pity because in all likelihood the community will get shafted. Again.

Anyway (@Gazgod too) they have already 150 people booked for 100 beta systems so they will have to discard 50 of them, but try to understand once and for all a simple fact: all they plan, is to sell a limited number of machines, get their money back+some and re-invest.

And best of British to them.

That's it.
You should visit other sites every once in a while you will meet many of this guys...(not to mention all those that solely post in their own country due to language barrier).

Lulz.

I understand if you like Aros or Morphos but it is a FACT, not an opinion, that they are NOT AmigaDOS / Amiga OS.

And by any measure you care to throw at either, the same can be applied to OS4.

[Methuselas]

I understand if you like Aros or Morphos but it is a FACT, not an opinion, that they are NOT AmigaDOS / Amiga OS.

Actually, they are. It's common knowledge that Classic 3.5 and 3.9 used pieces of AROS code and originally, MorphOS used 3.1 binaries, before using (once again) AROS code to replace them.

It's little things like this, that make the comment "Or just used AROS", mainly by Bloodline and Dammy, so amusing. I think it's a safe assumption that there's a little bit of "AROS" in everything.

[Iggy]

My simple point being, there needs to be a camaraderie between the camps for the further benefit of all the "flavors".

I tried making that argument of the Natami forums, only to have Gunnar call me a "jealous  dick".

I've had more progress with this idea on MorphZone. The MorphOS users are a little more laid back. They don't seem to have that argumentative, insecure state of mind that pervades other camps.

I don't understand your argument about cross compiling code from one Amiga-like system to another though. With 2 PPC OS', ! X86 OS, and future potential extensions to the original AmigaOS (for hardware like the Natami), easy recompiling across systems will allow us to enlarge the base of users we have to support software development.

Personally, I don't know if there is a market for hardware as costly as the X1000, but if they've already booked more than the 100 buyers for the first prototype run they may have something.

I also don't understand Acube's market either (since Acube bases their boards on low end Applied Micro processors that are outperformed by G4 level processors), but if you want a new board then don't let me discourage you from buying one.

I'm keeping track of all the developments in the Amiga market. Currently, its fascinating how much development is going on. While I'm skeptical that all this effort will pull us out of the hobbyist market into real competition will current PCs, I'm loving all the new developments.

This is no time for us to be fractious. Against great odds we're still here and growing.

[DAX]

@the Leander
About the delay I was talking about HOMBRE (AAA was scrapped, but Haynie in 1995 admitted Hombre was totally unfinished, any part of it wasn't even near completion) .

On the X1000 thing you got me wrong there, all I wanted to say is that it is the way it would have gone, with all the things  going on at Commodore there would have not be any Chipset Amiga released. Even considering a Hombre PC, you wouldn't call a winNT machine running on incompatible chip-set an Amiga, and as i told you PA-Risc support would have been changed soon for x86 as Microsoft dropped support, moreover they were so late with hombre according to Haynie, that by the time this fabled Hombre PC would be out, they had better used an off the shelf GPU as they were evolving at incomparable speed.

X1000 is as good as anything Commodore would have done if they didn't fold, as they were late with chipsets and due to the ongoing GPU battle (with new designs every 3 months) chipsets would have gone the way of the dodo just the same.

[the_leander]

Even considering a Hombre PC

How many times does this have to be explained to you? Now sit down, and if you need to get your carer to help you with the big words, ready? Hombre was never ever under any circumstances going to be a PC. It was a games console.

X1000 is as good as anything Commodore would have done if they didn't fold, as they were late with chipsets and due to the ongoing GPU battle (with new designs every 3 months) chipsets would have gone the way of the dodo just the same.

Actually by your own admission there, the X1000 would fail on one key point: Price. X86 is plentiful, PPC isn't.

[DAX]

man it was you who said C= was going to drop AOS and built a WinNT PC that used both hombre chipset and PA-Risc CPU or i would have never mentioned it.
My point is very simple: C= would have never ever released a new Amiga based on any chipset, as they were late with development even if they didn't go bankrupt.
The choice was among Amiga unrelated products, or modular designs that would have to favor GPUs instead of chipsets as they were too slow in developing them (missing every possible deadline) and GPUs were immensely faster as far as development cycles were concerned at that point in time.
Missing a deadline would mean a 2 or 4X speed increase in the GPU departments, and you can't compete with that
So if they had made a new Amiga it was modular+GPU as for consoles we already agreed about the fact that if Hombre was released in time to compete with PSX it could have been good, but they weren't even close, and quite frankly i don't even care as I loved amiga OS2.1 on my A2000 back then, running my copy of LW3D and TVpaint3.4 and couldn't care less about incompatible chipsets C= missed to make for his consoles (a fully boxed personal computer).

Most probably there would have not being any new Amiga personal computer at all (just a PA-Risc PC and an incompatible Playstation contender) so with the X1000 we got lucky, as at least we're getting something.

[the_leander]

man it was you who said C= was going to drop AOS and built a WinNT PC that used both hombre chipset and PA-Risc CPU or i would have never mentioned it.

And the only reason I stated what I did was because of this:

Commodore engineers wrote a long paper as to how Amiga would develop after AAA and if you read it you will see the X1000 is what they describe (I kid you not).

Which is patently untrue for the reasons already given.

Hmm, --edit for your edit---

Most probably there would have not being any new Amiga personal computer at all (just a PA-Risc PC

Again you're not getting it. AAA was history, it was dropped entirely as a possibility. Everything that could be salvaged from it went into the ill fated Hombre project. Amiga was a dead parrot.

so with the X1000 we got lucky, as at least we're getting something.

You and maybe a handful of other BAFs. The rest of the community will be looking toward Minimig, AROS and MorphOS. Honestly and truly I do not get the need for a "next gen" PPC Amiga. It was an ill conceived idea ten years ago and it's a significantly worse one now.

[DAX]

And the only reason I stated what I did was because of this:

Which is patently untrue for the reasons already given.

perfect then, patently untrue, however you know what I really meant as per my previous post.

[the_leander]

Am going to leave it there for a bit as we're editing based on edits here now and it's making the whole flow of conversation a bit batty.