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The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« on: June 06, 2009, 06:20:23 PM »
The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died
[SIZE=-1]InformationWeek, NY[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Linux as a server was another matter entirely, but to him the "Linux desktop" is as dead as the Amiga. How did this happen? Sam cites three things. Mac OS X was out and getting application support; UNIX was finally on the desktop (and it wasn't Linux). ...[/SIZE]

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« Last Edit: June 06, 2009, 11:47:40 PM by Wayne »
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2009, 08:02:32 PM »
He's right, to be honest. And that's coming from someone that does use Linux, both for work and at home.

I don't know anybody using Linux as a desktop OS that isn't measurably more computer savvy than the majority of users. That's not to say it's an elitist thing but most people just want their desktop computer to work without any fannying about and more often than not they want it for a spot of entertainment too.

Linux doesn't really excell in these areas. When it comes to desktops, there's too much choice for the average computer use to cope with and you can only run games that were either ported to the platform or are sufficiently compatible with the implemented featureset of Wine in order to work directly.
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Offline mr_a500

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Re: The Day, Or Year, Firefox died
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2009, 12:29:26 AM »
Argh! That linked page consistently freezes the version of Firefox I'm running on BeOS. I don't know what it's doing, but it kills it every time.

Ironically, I'm using BeOS because I think Linux desktop sucks. I tried about 7 different distros of Linux, but hated them all. Linux GUIs (Gnome, KDE) are so damn slow and jerky, they make even the bloatware Windows seem zippy. (and that's only part of the reason Linux desktop sucks)

Offline Karlos

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Re: The Day, Or Year, Firefox died
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2009, 01:04:47 AM »
Quote from: mr_a500;509684
Argh! That linked page consistently freezes the version of Firefox I'm running on BeOS. I don't know what it's doing, but it kills it every time.

Ironically, I'm using BeOS because I think Linux desktop sucks. I tried about 7 different distros of Linux, but hated them all. Linux GUIs (Gnome, KDE) are so damn slow and jerky, they make even the bloatware Windows seem zippy. (and that's only part of the reason Linux desktop sucks)


KDE 3.x was OK, but 4 is an abortion. Never had any issues with Gnome's performance though. Fast as fury on this machine and no slouch on the box at work, which is a single core P4 with Radeon X300.

If you want a window manager that's both extremely fast out of the box but at the same time highly customisable, then fvwm is for you. The initial desktop it gives you is very spartan and configuring it takes time, but it is the veritable Intuition of the linux world. It is fast even on 10 year old machines.
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: The Day, Or Year, Firefox died
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2009, 01:30:15 AM »
Quote from: mr_a500;509684
Argh! That linked page consistently freezes the version of Firefox I'm running on BeOS. I don't know what it's doing, but it kills it every time.

Ironically, I'm using BeOS because I think Linux desktop sucks. I tried about 7 different distros of Linux, but hated them all. Linux GUIs (Gnome, KDE) are so damn slow and jerky, they make even the bloatware Windows seem zippy. (and that's only part of the reason Linux desktop sucks)


What spec are you running BeOS on.  I thought you need an old single core machine with <128 meg ram
 

Offline kolla

Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2009, 02:06:58 AM »
It really doesnt matter what some jackass means about linux as desktop computer, neither does it matter what most users are doing. Personally I cant grasp how anyone can survive with Windows, for me Windows is dead on the desktop, and everywhere else for that matter - other people's oppinions on this dont apply. Appearantly I'm just not "most users", nothing wrong with that.

What I seriously dislike though, is when "most users" is used as a excuse to criple and destroy the tools I use - this is very much what those futile attempts at linux desktops have been about lately, and it sucks.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2009, 02:12:04 AM »
Quote from: kolla;509691
It really doesnt matter what some jackass means about linux as desktop computer, neither does it matter what most users are doing. Personally I cant grasp how anyone can survive with Windows, for me Windows is dead on the desktop, and everywhere else for that matter - other people's oppinions on this dont apply. Appearantly I'm just not "most users", nothing wrong with that.


As I said, you are in the tech savvy minority. His argument is correct in that most ordinary users are put off at the thought of actually having to do some work to have their machine the way they'd ideally like it.

Quote
What I seriously dislike though, is when "most users" is used as a excuse to criple and destroy the tools I use - this is very much what those futile attempts at linux desktops have been about lately, and it sucks.


You mean KDE4.x, right? :D
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Offline mr_a500

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2009, 02:31:47 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;509688
KDE 3.x was OK, but 4 is an abortion. Never had any issues with Gnome's performance though. Fast as fury on this machine and no slouch on the box at work, which is a single core P4 with Radeon X300.

If you want a window manager that's both extremely fast out of the box but at the same time highly customisable, then fvwm is for you. The initial desktop it gives you is very spartan and configuring it takes time, but it is the veritable Intuition of the linux world. It is fast even on 10 year old machines.

Thanks. I'll check out fvwm - but don't Linux applications need to be specifically compiled to use a certain GUI? I already ran into the nightmare of dependency hell and KDE-only applications. (Speaking of dependency hell - installing a simple frigging text editor installed over 1GB of libraries!! The text editor sucked too.)

As I said, GUI is only one reason I think desktop Linux sucks. I've had Linux crash on me many times (8 times just in one day!), I've had kernel panics and 6 times the install list got corrupted and I had to reinstall the entire damn OS. I could go on and on. And I thought Windows was bad...

(...preparing myself to get flamed by the Linux lovers...;))

Quote from: stefcep2;509690
What spec are you running BeOS on.  I thought you need an old single core machine with <128 meg ram

I'm running BeOS on a 866 Mhz PIII with 1 Gb RAM (PC I got free - I still refuse to buy a PC). BeOS can only handle 768 Mb RAM though, so it boots with a RAM limiter.

Offline MrZammler

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2009, 09:10:28 AM »
Linux is dead on the desktop? Hmm, what is this under firefox I'm posting from now?

The author seems to claim that when there are no commercial games for a platform, it's dead. Well, it's a point of view, but I'd prefer if he said that it was dead to him only. It's pretty much alive for me, using it (with KDE 4 now) for 9 years straight.

Ah, and it's Sunday morning. Good time for a FIFA 09 or C&C Zero hour session.
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Offline Colani1200

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2009, 12:04:21 PM »
Linux dead on the desktop? Ridiculous... I really wonder who hired that guy, was it Apple or Microsoft? :lol:

Even the company I work for started to switch to Linux desktops in several areas. And this is just the beginning. I agree with kolla, Microsofts fight against piracy + the struggle to make Windows rudimentally secure rendered it unusable over the years...

BTW: I doubt that computing can get any "untechier" than with Ubuntu...
 

Offline Colani1200

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2009, 12:16:35 PM »
Quote from: mr_a500;509694
Thanks. I'll check out fvwm - but don't Linux applications need to be specifically compiled to use a certain GUI?


It's the same on the Amiga (i.e. MUI / Reaction applications) and on other platforms.

Quote

I already ran into the nightmare of dependency hell and KDE-only applications. (Speaking of dependency hell - installing a simple frigging text editor installed over 1GB of libraries!! The text editor sucked too.)


Well... installing a KDE app for a desktop other than KDE doesn't really make sense. Possible, but not optimal.

Quote

As I said, GUI is only one reason I think desktop Linux sucks. I've had Linux crash on me many times (8 times just in one day!), I've had kernel panics and 6 times the install list got corrupted and I had to reinstall the entire damn OS


I really wonder what distro that was...
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2009, 01:53:11 PM »
Quote from: mr_a500;509694
Thanks. I'll check out fvwm - but don't Linux applications need to be specifically compiled to use a certain GUI? I already ran into the nightmare of dependency hell and KDE-only applications. (Speaking of dependency hell - installing a simple frigging text editor installed over 1GB of libraries!! The text editor sucked too.)

Which editor was that? :lol:

As for the GUI, it's not quite like that. The GUI under linux consists of up to 4 distinct components

  • The X Server itself
  • Compositor*
  • The Window Manager
  • Widget sets

The X Server provides the absolute bottom layer of the GUI and provides the basic access to graphics hardware as well as the input event handling stuff. It is pretty much the same everywhere and frankly the differences that do exist tend to be way behind the interface where you aren't likely to find any problems. If you do have any, they are more likely down to driver issues and so on.

The Compositor is an optional feature that replaces X's traditional rendering engine. Usually this is some fancy OpenGL thing that gives real-time transparency and other visual effects. Nice to have but not essential. Despite having ample hardware to run it here, I prefer not to as it increases the power consumption of my machine significantly to have the gfx card running in full performance 3D mode all day long.

The Window Manager is what most people mean when they talk of linux desktops. It provides the basic windowing services and sets the overall look and feel of windows. It also provides the "desktop" functionality, such as menu systems, desktop icons and so on.

Widget sets are the final bit. They provide the gui controls you find within an application window. Like the Amiga, where you have Gadtools, MUI/Zune, ClassAct/Reaction, Triton to name a few, you several of these under Linux. There's GTK and Qt just for starters.

Now, the thing here is, you can have multiple Window Managers and Widget sets installed all at once. If you only want to use one WM, eg fvwm, you can still run any applications written for gnone, KDE, xfce etc. The only proviso is that you have at least the base libraries for the others installed in order to do that. You don't need to install the entire WM packages if you don't intend to use their actual desktop services.


Quote
As I said, GUI is only one reason I think desktop Linux sucks.

My thoughts are that it's down to too much choice. You end up having to install base libraries from KDE and gnome at the bare minimum to run most software.

Quote
I've had Linux crash on me many times (8 times just in one day!), I've had kernel panics and 6 times the install list got corrupted and I had to reinstall the entire damn OS. I could go on and on. And I thought Windows was bad...

That's very bad. Kernel panics usually very rare and can be indicative of faulty hardware. That said, if you use a dodgy kernel mode driver, it is also possible. In the last 3 years continuous use, my work machine has never kernel panicked. I had X lock up once or twice in that time, but I've always been able to restart the X server.

Quote
(...preparing myself to get flamed by the Linux lovers...;))

All suitably complex machines are capable of crashing, no matter what OS you shove on it.


Quote
I'm running BeOS on a 866 Mhz PIII with 1 Gb RAM (PC I got free - I still refuse to buy a PC). BeOS can only handle 768 Mb RAM though, so it boots with a RAM limiter.

Have you thought of trying Zeta or Haiku?
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Offline Karlos

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #12 on: June 07, 2009, 02:00:05 PM »
Quote from: Colani1200;509737

Well... installing a KDE app for a desktop other than KDE doesn't really make sense. Possible, but not optimal.


I prefer KDevelop as an editor environment but gnome as a window manager. Ergo, I have the base libraries for KDE installed, but not the actual desktop. KDE 4 just put me off completely.
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Offline mr_a500

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2009, 04:25:08 PM »
Quote from: Colani1200;509737
It's the same on the Amiga (i.e. MUI / Reaction applications) and on other platforms.
Yes, I know. My point was that if I wanted to use fvwm, I'd have to limit myself to applications compiled for fvwm (or command line). Since I'd never even heard of fvwm, it must not be that popular - meaning fewer available applications. Using the Amiga analogy, that is like limiting myself only to Amiga applications that use BGUI.
Quote from: Colani1200;509737
Well... installing a KDE app for a desktop other than KDE doesn't really make sense. Possible, but not optimal.
I was using a KDE desktop and the application was KDE! (on OpenSUSE 11) I can't remember what text editor it was, but it really REALLY sucked. All I wanted was a simple text editor. The few I found couldn't even compare to a 1989 Amiga editor... and that is pathetic. I'm positive Linux has some kick-ass editors somewhere, but all the ones in the depository (suppository?) sucked hard!

Not just that, but the reason I needed to find a text editor was that the supplied editor kept refusing to open files (permission crap - another pain in the ass) and didn't prompt me for a password. At least Gnome has an editor that prompts and eventually allows access. (and yes, I know I could go into a shell, cd to the directory and sudo every time)


Quote from: Colani1200;509737
I really wonder what distro that was...
It was Ubuntu 8.04 and 8.10. I had multiple partitions on multiple computers. Ubuntu 9.04 had lots of problems too. Even running one of the supplied screensavers could crash it consistently (couldn't even shut down using power button, had to pull plug!). I once had a program crash and it opened a crash report and when I clicked on it, it failed and said "The problem report is damaged" (psyche!) and told me to reboot.

But even that is nothing compared to the problems I had with the crap known as grub. You can quote me on this: "Grub is quite possibly the worst piece of shit ever programmed!".  What is the point of having multiple partitons as backup when the boot manager fails completely when just one is corrupt??

What else to hate... forced FSCK checks, manually editing things like xorg.conf to add monitor sync rates just to change screenmode or refresh rate, unbelievably long boot times, incredibly stupid directory structure which can't be changed, programs altering grub - screwing up manual edits, constant prompts for root password, etc, etc.....

I TRIED to like Linux... I really did. I really REALLY did. I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really REALLY did. (But I don't.)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2009, 04:37:44 PM by mr_a500 »
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek
« Reply #14 on: June 07, 2009, 04:49:46 PM »
@Mr_A500

Actually, Emacs and Vim have more capability than any sane person could want. And you don't need no stinkin' X server neither, let alone KDE ;)
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