The Day, Or Year, The Linux Desktop Died - InformationWeek

[Karlos]

@Mr_A500

Actually, Emacs and Vim have more capability than any sane person could want. And you don't need no stinkin' X server neither, let alone KDE

[Colani1200]

Yes, I know. My point was that if I wanted to use fvwm, I'd have to limit myself to applications compiled for fvwm (or command line).

No. You can run every app you want on it. But you have to live with the fact that if you want to install e.g. KDE apps on it, your package manager will install half of KDE. I think only the QT library uses a few hundred MB already.

I was using a KDE desktop and the application was KDE! (on OpenSUSE 11) I can't remember what text editor it was, but it really REALLY sucked.

I agree that OpenSuSe sucks. And KDE aswell ;-)

All I wanted was a simple text editor. The few I found couldn't even compare to a 1989 Amiga editor... and that is pathetic. I'm positive Linux has some kick-ass editors somewhere, but all the ones in the depository (suppository?) sucked hard!

There's a sh*tload out there. Personally, I use gvim (which was written on the Amiga originally).

Not just that, but the reason I needed to find a text editor was that the supplied editor kept refusing to open files (permission crap - another pain in the ass) and didn't prompt me for a password. At least Gnome has an editor that prompts and eventually allows access. (and yes, I know I could go into a shell, cd to the directory and sudo every time)

Well, Linux is a multi user OS. And one that has a certain focus on security. You can't compare that to a toy like Windows.

It was Ubuntu 8.04 and 8.10. I had multiple partitions on multiple computers. Ubuntu 9.04 had lots of problems too. Even running one of the supplied screensavers could crash it consistently (couldn't even shut down using power button, had to pull plug!). I once had a program crash and it opened a crash report and when I clicked on it, it failed and said "The problem report is damaged" (psyche!) and told me to reboot.

Sounds like broken hardware to me. If you can't power your system off by pressing the power button for a few seconds then something is seriously wrong.

But even that is nothing compared to the problems I had with the crap known as grub. You can quote me on this: "Grub is quite possibly the worst piece of shit ever programmed!".

Nah, you just need to know how to use it. PS: It nicely boots Aros aswell ;-)

What is the point of having multiple partitons as backup when the boot manager fails completely when just one is corrupt??

You need a usable /boot partition and a correct GRUB config (BTW: you can edit the boot options on the fine by pressing 'e' and 'ctrl-x' after your changes.)

What else to hate... forced FSCK checks,

I think it is a good feature to see problems early. But of course you can turn it off easily if you don't like it.

manually editing things like xorg.conf to add monitor sync rates just to change screenmode or refresh rate,

Again I suspect bad or badly supported hardware (e.g. a monitor that has no / incorrect EDID output).

unbelievably long boot times

Are you REALLY really sure that your hardware wasn't broken? I just measured with a stop watch. My ~5 years old Toshiba notebook (Centrino 1.6) with Ubuntu 9.04 boots within 27 seconds (with fully encrypted hard disk!) to the login screen. Another 15 seconds to a fully working desktop.

 incredibly stupid directory structure which can't be changed,

A matter of taste... I think it's clever. :-)

programs altering grub - screwing up manual edits,

wot? O_0

I TRIED to like Linux... I really did. I really REALLY did. I really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really REALLY did. (But I don't.)

If you don't like it, that's fine with me. Maybe you had bad luck / picked a wrong distro, whatever. Or it really just doesn't suit your needs, dunno. Still I think everyone should give it a try.

[mr_a500]

Well, Linux is a multi user OS. And one that has a certain focus on security. You can't compare that to a toy like Windows.

Oh yes, security. How is Ubuntu secure? All I have to do is insert the live CD, mount a drive and have full access to all files. Yeah, all the sacrifices of having to sudo everything and enter root password for every damn thing really make up for that level of security.

(Also, is there really a need - in 2009 - for a desktop computer to be multi-user? Computers now are cheap enough for everyone to have their OWN computer. I think it's time to bring back the concept of the single user desktop OS - where user experience is top priority.)

Sounds like broken hardware to me. If you can't power your system off by pressing the power button for a few seconds then something is seriously wrong.

The thing that is seriously wrong is the whole concept of software controlled stateless buttons. The power button is software controlled (OS). If the software screws up (as in crash), the button doesn't work. Notice the setting in Ubuntu that asks what to do when the power button is pressed? (sleep, ask, shutdown) Most modern electronics have these stupid software controlled power buttons - where you press the switch and then IT decides what to do (and may refuse your request). I'd much rather be back in the days of big shiny switches - on means ON, off means OFF! NOW!

Nah, you just need to know how to use it. PS: It nicely boots Aros aswell ;-)

Why is it every time I complain about something, somebody says something like "you just need to learn how to use it"?? I know exactly how to use it. I've read manuals, web pages, endless forum help threads. I've installed GRUB about 50 times. (many different settings, multi-booting Windows, BeOS, BSD, Haiku...). I'll have to say this again, GRUB IS SHIT.

You need a usable /boot partition and a correct GRUB config

Think about what you said there, then think about what I said.

If the partition you install GRUB from gets corrupted, you will not be able to boot from ANY partiton. This totally defeats the entire purpose of having multiple boot partitons.

(BTW: you can edit the boot options on the fine by pressing 'e' and 'ctrl-x' after your changes.)

I know. That's one of the first things I learned. It doesn't help when GRUB won't even load.

Again I suspect bad or badly supported hardware (e.g. a monitor that has no / incorrect EDID output).

I got the same results on 4 different monitors - popular monitors from IBM and ViewSonic.

Are you REALLY really sure that your hardware wasn't broken? I just measured with a stop watch. My ~5 years old Toshiba notebook (Centrino 1.6) with Ubuntu 9.04 boots within 27 seconds (with fully encrypted hard disk!) to the login screen. Another 15 seconds to a fully working desktop.

No, I'm not REALLY really sure. I'm willing to accept that maybe something hardware related is screwed up. Ubuntu 9.04 took about 1 minute 30 seconds. 8.10 took a bit longer. 8.04 took anywhere from 1 minute 40 seconds to 2 minutes to fully working desktop (add 30 seconds to each for the regular FSCK). I consider all those times to be unbelievably long. BeOS (multiple partitions) on the same computer (which never crashed or has any of the problems I experienced in Linux) boots in around 6 seconds - fully working desktop.

If people like Linux, then that's fine and I'm happy for you. I would like to like Linux too, but unless there are radical changes in the way Linux works (and their entire concept of what makes a good OS), I'm not going to be happy using it.

[Delta]

Every now and then there is always a wanna-be geek who releases that kind of crap on a blog or some tech news site.   Isn't it getting boring?

According to his theory if you are not mainstream you are dead...  What about Lamborghini cars? What about small breweries beer? What about "B" movies?

[Colani1200]

Oh yes, security. How is Ubuntu secure? All I have to do is insert the live CD, mount a drive and have full access to all files.

No, you can't do that if the hard disk is encrypted. All of my Ubuntu installs are. Because Ubuntu makes it so easy, it's almost boring, you just need to install from the alternate CD and choose encrpted lvm).

BTW: Mounting an unencrypted volume is easy on all platforms.

Yeah, all the sacrifices of having to sudo everything and enter root password for every damn thing really make up for that level of security.

Ever wondered why so many Windows installations started to have a life of their own?

(Also, is there really a need - in 2009 - for a desktop computer to be multi-user?

Yes. My guess is that 80% of all virus problems on Windows are caused by people surfing the web with administrator rights.

The thing that is seriously wrong is the whole concept of software controlled stateless buttons. The power button is software controlled (OS). If the software screws up (as in crash), the button doesn't work. Notice the setting in Ubuntu that asks what to do when the power button is pressed? (sleep, ask, shutdown) Most modern electronics have these stupid software controlled power buttons - where you press the switch and then IT decides what to do (and may refuse your request). I'd much rather be back in the days of big shiny switches - on means ON, off means OFF! NOW!

Come on, you don't know the ACPI power button? OK, I'll explain: If you press it shortly, you trigger a software shutdown. If you keep it pressed for a few seconds, it is supposed to do a hard poweroff like back in the days. If that doesn't work (even with a crashed OS), then something is wrong with your hardware.

Why is it every time I complain about something, somebody says something like "you just need to learn how to use it"?? I know exactly how to use it. I've read manuals, web pages, endless forum help threads. I've installed GRUB about 50 times. (many different settings, multi-booting Windows, BeOS, BSD, Haiku...).

Actually unlike lilo, you just have to install it once. After that you can change the configuration any time.

No, I'm not REALLY really sure. I'm willing to accept that maybe something hardware related is screwed up. Ubuntu 9.04 took about 1 minute 30 seconds.

Seems slow, <30 seconds should be doable for any decent hardware.

If people like Linux, then that's fine and I'm happy for you. I would like to like Linux too, but unless there are radical changes in the way Linux works (and their entire concept of what makes a good OS), I'm not going to be happy using it.

I think you just have to accept that some things work differently than on other systems you're used to. You had to learn how to operate those other systems in the past aswell. It's just that most people are not willing to learn again. (That doesn't specially go in your direction, I see that you already spent some time with it, but maybe it's still not quite enough).

[Colani1200]

Something more on topic: Linux recently gave birth to an entirely new range of desktop products: The netbooks. So how dead is it really?

And if you wonder why "netbooks" suddenly started to come with a conventional hard drive, 12" screens, Windows XP and other b*llshit, you might want to read this:

http://blogs.computerworld.com/microsoft_strikes_back_at_linux_netbook_push

[cecilia]

personally I'm very happy with my Ubuntu 8.10 Intrepid on my "old" laptop

nothing is perfect, but I also have to make compromises on the Windows side of my multi-boot system. however, having Linux gives me options. why people think they have to debate this sort of thing just makes me laugh

Ubuntu has never crashed on me. I have yet to use/install nVidia drivers because it seems a bit daunting and if something works I am loath to change it. I have installed or used programs to read various cell phones/cameras and removable drives. I can write to ntsf formated portable drive. I'm happy

iis it the most perfect thing in the universe? no...but it's really good and fun. and works!

[mr_a500]

I think you just have to accept that some things work differently than on other systems you're used to. You had to learn how to operate those other systems in the past aswell. It's just that most people are not willing to learn again. (That doesn't specially go in your direction, I see that you already spent some time with it, but maybe it's still not quite enough).

Possibly... but then again, most people are not willing to eat shit either. I suppose I could learn to like eating shit if I just put some effort into that, but for some reason I don't think it's worth the effort.

Come on, you don't know the ACPI power button? OK, I'll explain: If you press it shortly, you trigger a software shutdown. If you keep it pressed for a few seconds, it is supposed to do a hard poweroff like back in the days. If that doesn't work (even with a crashed OS), then something is wrong with your hardware.

Yes, yes... press and hold... press and hold (I've always hated the press and hold concept). Of course, it's possible that the button has a problem. The thing is, I've never had a problem shutting off BeOS. Why? BeOS doesn't support ACPI.

[Colani1200]

Possibly... but then again, most people are not willing to eat shit either. I suppose I could learn to like eating shit if I just put some effort into that, but for some reason I don't think it's worth the effort.

Many people already learned to. Albeit shit in a pleasent looking package...

The thing is, I've never had a problem shutting off BeOS. Why? BeOS doesn't support ACPI.

Then it doesn't support dynamic CPU clocking, power saving, cooling etc. etc... Not very modern... And not very ecological nor economical either.

[nicholas]

KDE 3.x was OK, but 4 is an abortion. Never had any issues with Gnome's performance though. Fast as fury on this machine and no slouch on the box at work, which is a single core P4 with Radeon X300.

If you want a window manager that's both extremely fast out of the box but at the same time highly customisable, then fvwm is for you. The initial desktop it gives you is very spartan and configuring it takes time, but it is the veritable Intuition of the linux world. It is fast even on 10 year old machines.

Use LXDE but replace the WM with IceWM and use the OS4 theme.

It makes my missus' poxy Aspire One seem responsive.

[Karlos]

Ubuntu has never crashed on me. I have yet to use/install nVidia drivers because it seems a bit daunting and if something works I am loath to change it.

I use the drivers directly from nVidia as they provide all the various libraries I need to write software for the GPU.

Installing them is actually fairly easy, but as it's not from the repository you need to rebuild them every time you have a kernel update.

Installing just amounts to running the downloaded file in a root shell. You need to not have the X server running too:

1) Boot into "safe" mode, then select "root shell"
2) change to runlevel 3 (type: telinit 3)
3) log in as yourself
4) sudo as root
5) run the installer package (sh .run)
6) agree that nVidia isn't liable for the unexpected end of the universe
7) let it try to download a kernel module, if that fails let it build it
let it install the legacy 32-bit opengl stuff if you have a 64-bit driver
9) let it backup and replace your xorg.conf
10) restart

if all has gone well, you now have drivers that support your hardware properly. One downside is, you also have a tainted kernel, if you care about such things.

[nicholas]

I prefer KDevelop as an editor environment but gnome as a window manager. Ergo, I have the base libraries for KDE installed, but not the actual desktop. KDE 4 just put me off completely.

Serves you right for using Feckdora bro!

I've had enough of fannying about these days, so after 10+ years Linux is now relegated to my servers only.

Leopard + Path Finder + Macports does me fine for the desktop now.

Though if the mother-in-law hadn't so kindly bought me the MBP I'd still be endlessly fannying around with Linux on my desktop as I really don't see the point in wasting even more time fannying around with a Hackintosh installation.

What is wrong with you freaks that do that?

[nicholas]

I use the drivers directly from nVidia as they provide all the various libraries I need to write software for the GPU.

Installing them is actually fairly easy, but as it's not from the repository you need to rebuild them every time you have a kernel update.

Installing just amounts to running the downloaded file in a root shell. You need to not have the X server running too:

1) Boot into "safe" mode, then select "root shell"
2) change to runlevel 3 (type: telinit 3)
3) log in as yourself
4) sudo as root
5) run the installer package (sh .run)
6) agree that nVidia isn't liable for the unexpected end of the universe
7) let it try to download a kernel module, if that fails let it build it
let it install the legacy 32-bit opengl stuff if you have a 64-bit driver
9) let it backup and replace your xorg.conf
10) restart

if all has gone well, you now have drivers that support your hardware properly. One downside is, you also have a tainted kernel, if you care about such things.

What's wrong with adding the RPMFusion repo and 'yum install kmod-nvidia'?

Is it missing the CUDA stuff?

[Karlos]

Use LXDE but replace the WM with IceWM and use the OS4 theme.

It makes my missus' poxy Aspire One seem responsive.

I can't really be ersed with "pimping" linux GUI, to be honest. gnome works fine for me

[Karlos]

What's wrong with adding the RPMFusion repo and 'yum install kmod-nvidia'?

Is it missing the CUDA stuff?

Didn't support my card at the outset, so I never bothered keeping up with it. nVidia make releases pretty regularly too. Installing them is far less of a PITA than the list makes it look, tbh.

[nicholas]

I can't really be ersed with "pimping" linux GUI, to be honest. gnome works fine for me

Yeah but you do have umpteen bazillion cpu cores.  Even Slowlaris would seem fast on that box!