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Author Topic: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?  (Read 22323 times)

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Offline Warface

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #59 on: October 13, 2003, 11:33:58 AM »
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You suppose there is? That means you are condemming the whole concept because you assume?


I assume that if there were no money involved, and obtaining the licence were so easy as you depict it, we'd have Amiga/Pegasos dealers in a long line offering Pegasos with OS4 "when released".

We have none. Care to explain the phaenomenon?
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #60 on: October 13, 2003, 11:37:36 AM »
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A dealer might want to sell boards with OS 4 as a bundle and make a licence deal with Amiga (not with Hyperion).


Ok, this makes more sense to me now. So I could buy a licence for OS4 (for free? ;-) ) and then run it on the Pegasos boards that I sell?

What I'm buying, with the licence, is the responsibility to support my customers, right?

Offline Rogue

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #61 on: October 13, 2003, 11:39:22 AM »
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Obviously, we differ slightly in our view of a business model when it comes to OSes (software and drivers should be commercial but the OS should be free IMHO).


You tell that to Microsoft. I had to pay € 70 for a System Builder Version of XP. I'd rather pay for the OS and get the drivers for free when I buy the hardware, because I am bound to need more drivers than OSes.

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It seems to my cynical eye that Hyperion are atempting to circumvent people freedom to choose the OS that suits them best.


This would be the case if the donglization would prevent any other OS from running. It doesn't. You *can* run Linux on the AmigaOne, you *can* run MacOS X via MOL, and if Genesi would do it, you *could* run MorphOS. If you would port AROS, that would run, too. There is plenty of options to choose from, and to put it plainly, we're not afraid of competition (I think that a bit of competition is healthy for all involved, most notably the user).

I would really like to hear an explanation how we are circumventing people the freedom of choice for their OS. We aren't. You don't have to buy a board with an AmigaOS 4 licence. And if you did, there is nothing preventing you from running any other OS.

However, if you want it, we want our share for it. I have virtually given two years of my life to it, and I think I deserve some compensation for that.
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Offline Rogue

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #62 on: October 13, 2003, 11:44:01 AM »
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I assume that if there were no money involved, and obtaining the licence were so easy as you depict it, we'd have Amiga/Pegasos dealers in a long line offering Pegasos with OS4 "when released".

We have none. Care to explain the phaenomenon?


"We have none"? How do you know?

The phaenomenon is easily explained: Rumours are flying. Just look at yourself. *Everbody* is assuming that it has got so many strings attached that it isn't worth asking.

It has already been said before that the Pegasos I, due to its limited numbers and trade-in offer, is a rather small market. The Pegasos II is different, but not on sale yet. And most of all there is no OS 4 yet, so there isn't really reason to hurry.
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Offline Warface

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #63 on: October 13, 2003, 11:48:31 AM »
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The phaenomenon is easily explained: Rumours are flying. Just look at yourself. *Everbody* is assuming that it has got so many strings attached that it isn't worth asking.


When someone deeply involved in OS4 development and being one of the core members of Hyperion admits 'he doesn't know' then don't be surprised of assumptions.
 

Offline Rogue

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #64 on: October 13, 2003, 11:49:54 AM »
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So I could buy a licence for OS4 (for free?  ) and then run it on the Pegasos boards that I sell?


Not knowing about "for free", as I said, but yes, if you are a pegasos dealer you can acquire a licence and sell your boards with OS 4.

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What I'm buying, with the licence, is the responsibility to support my customers, right?


What you are buying is a licence for OS 4 and the right to distribute it with the boards you sell. What you are buying is our work to port it to your platform, and our support of your platform and those customers that you cannot handle yourself. WIth it also comes the responsibility to support your customers as far as you can. If it turns out to be a hardware issue (CD-Rom example), you're probably going to know more about the problem than I do, anyway. Otherwise you will redirect your customer to Amiga/Hyperion, and we need to care about the problem.

It's not that much different with e.g. Dell selliing you a Wintel PC, you will probably also inqure at Dell when you need support, and they may or may not redirect you to Microsoft.
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Offline bhoggett

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #65 on: October 13, 2003, 11:54:51 AM »
I think this thread demonstrates quite clearly why I won't be touching AOS4 with a bargepole.

Forcing people to buy specific hardware just so they can run their chosen software is stupid.

Forcing people to pay a license premium for the priviledge of getting their software support from the hardware manufacturer is stupid.

The whole marketing and licensing policy for AmigaOS4 is a complete disincentive to even consider it. The only real motivation I see is the massaging of the inflated egos of those in charge and the squeezing of every last penny from those gullible enough to buy in.

Sorry if that offends anyone. I just find the attempts to justify the licensing policy to be utterly lame.
 :-(
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Offline Rogue

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #66 on: October 13, 2003, 11:55:41 AM »
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When someone deeply involved in OS4 development and being one of the core members of Hyperion admist 'he doesn't know' then don't be surprised of assumptions.


What do you expect? I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer (no wait, that was someone else...) I'm a developer, not a salesman. I don't need to know anything about licencing and sales. I couldn't even quote you what Eyetech are asking for, say, an A1 with a 750FX@800, because I simply do not need to know these issues. All that I care of is to get this thing finished, and to make it as good as possible. (and I start to notice that I am spending too much time on forums again :-) )

I personally find it quite natural that things like license fees are not discussed openly on Forums. I was utterly p*ssed when someone published the fee we where asking for Warp3D adaption. That is internal dealings and doesn't belong into the public. Interested parties should inquire with Amiga or Hyperion, but certainly not on a public forum, and certainly not with a developer. I am sure that the same applies to quite a lot of companies.
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Offline Rogue

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #67 on: October 13, 2003, 11:59:28 AM »
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Forcing people to buy specific hardware just so they can run their chosen software is stupid.


That must be the reason why I can buy MacOS X for Intel boxes and Windows for Mac hardware.

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Sorry if that offends anyone. I just find the attempts to justify the licensing policy to be utterly lame.


How could someone be offended because you called him stupid, or granting the people involved an inflated ego ;-)

Luckily for you, no one is "forcing" anyone. You demonstrate quite clearly that you have the freedom of choice. The rest of your ranting is highly offensive and clearly demonstrates your disability for a mature discussion.
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Offline Warface

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #68 on: October 13, 2003, 11:59:54 AM »
But unless that information is available, we won't know who to blame :-) I think my position is understandable as well right? (To whom should I write a letter problem, you know) :-)

I'd like to know if it's Genesi's/Hyperion's/AmigaInc's/Dealers' fault that there is no OS4 on Pegasos. Even if it's not a simple issue.
 

Offline Rogue

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #69 on: October 13, 2003, 12:10:11 PM »
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But unless that information is available, we won't know who to blame  I think my position is understandable as well right? (To whom should I write a letter problem, you know)


I do understand you. If in doubt, try to bring it up on AW.net's "Ask Fleecy" session :-)

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I'd like to know if it's Genesi's/Hyperion's/AmigaInc's/Dealers' fault that there is no OS4 on Pegasos.


Why? Would it change the result? I don't think so. The truth will probably be someone in the middle anyway.

And now I think I am going back to work. The tone in this discussion was quite fine, which was a pleasant surprise until, well...
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Offline Warface

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps!!
« Reply #70 on: October 13, 2003, 12:17:30 PM »
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Why? Would it change the result? I don't think so. The truth will probably be someone in the middle anyway.


The pressure of the public is a power not to be underestimated. :-) It's one of the reasons why OS4 exists.
 

Offline bhoggett

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #71 on: October 13, 2003, 12:26:36 PM »
@Rogue

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Forcing people to buy specific hardware just so they can run their chosen software is stupid.


That must be the reason why I can buy MacOS X for Intel boxes and Windows for Mac hardware.

No. It's the reason why I don't own a Mac or run MacOS X, however much I might be interested in doing so.

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Sorry if that offends anyone. I just find the attempts to justify the licensing policy to be utterly lame.


How could someone be offended because you called him stupid,

No. I called the policy stupid, not the people. I know English is not your native language, but you should really make the effort.

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or granting the people involved an inflated ego ;-)

That's a personal opinion, I admit, but yes, I do think most of the personalities involved have inflated egos.

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Luckily for you, no one is "forcing" anyone. You demonstrate quite clearly that you have the freedom of choice. The rest of your ranting is highly offensive and clearly demonstrates your disability for a mature discussion.

Yes, I'm sure you're right. After all, you're not known for accusing anyone who questions you of being a troll, are you?

Why don't you address the issues instead of snipping them out? Why should customers pay a licensing premium so that the hardware manufacturer or the system vendor becomes their first line of software support?

I would uderstand it if the hardware manufacturer paid the licence fee so that YOU, the software developer takes on the software support responsibilities of supporting their hardware, but not just for the priviledge of increasing your sales while relieving you of the burden of support as well. It's not like AmigaOS4 is a world famous killer application anyone would die for, is it?
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Offline Rassilon

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #72 on: October 13, 2003, 12:47:35 PM »
@Bill

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Forcing people to buy specific hardware just so they can run their chosen software is stupid.

I think you may have misunderstood. Its not specifically about restricting the hardware to run the software. Its about restricting the hardware to a  SUPPORTED subset.

The original arguement for not producing OS4 on x86 was due to the myriad of PC hardware that would not be able to be supported.

If you bring that arguement back to Amiga now, where the market is much smaller - it costs time and money (which is not exactly abundent in the ,market) to adapt an OS for specific hardware (Pegasos etc).

So its not about forcing the user to use specific hardware, its about supporting a small subset of mobo's well, rather than loads of mobo's shoddily.

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Offline Rogue

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #73 on: October 13, 2003, 01:41:15 PM »
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No. I called the policy stupid, not the people. I know English is not your native language, but you should really make the effort.


Ok, so that makes us people with only an inflated ego with stupid ideas, right? Sounds a bit like splitting hairs.


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That's a personal opinion, I admit, but yes, I do think most of the personalities involved have inflated egos.


Personal or not, it doesn't mean it is any less offensive. My personal opinion may be that person X is a blatant idiot (note: MAY BE. I didn't call anyone anything), but uttering it would make it offensive nontheless. So stating that you don't want to offend someone and calling him stupid (ok, stating that he makes something stupid, which is good enough) or inflated ego is distrubing to say the least.



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Why don't you address the issues instead of snipping them out?


What issues? All I saw from you was a hypocritical post stating you don't want to offend someone and do it anyway?

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Why should customers pay a licensing premium so that the hardware manufacturer or the system vendor becomes their first line of software support?


I don't understand where you get the idea that a customer needs to pay a licence fee. The board manufacturer does, and yes, it makes the board more expensive by a few euros, but you are getting something back for it. If it where sold by us directly, it would probably be more expensive.

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I would uderstand it if the hardware manufacturer paid the licence fee so that YOU, the software developer takes on the software support responsibilities of supporting their hardware, but not just for the priviledge of increasing your sales while relieving you of the burden of support as well.


I know English is not my native language (as you correctly pointed out yourself), but where did I say that it frees us from the burden of support? It just distributes the support issues. If someone has a problem with Eyetech hardware, he contacts Eyetech first, which I think is quite natural. If things turn out not to be an Eyetech issue, the AmigaOS 4 team takes over. Where does that free us from any support issue? In the end, if it isn't a hardware issue, it *will* end up on my plate. Where is the problem?

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It's not like AmigaOS4 is a world famous killer application anyone would die for, is it?


That remark is completely uncalled for. The reasoning for this thread *was* that someone specifically *wanted* to run OS 4 on the Pegasos. I wasn't suggesting anywhere that everyone must have OS 4. As you said yourself, if you don't want it, you don't need to buy it, no one is forcing you.

However, the whole point is that *IF* you want it to run on your hardware, you *must* get a licence for it. The same applies to every software product that you buy - even GPL'ed programs come with a licence that you need to comply with. If you don't like the license, you are entitled to reject it and not use the program in question. Where is the difference? Are you complaining that the GPL forces you to open-source all modifications and derivative work? I don't think so.

In essense, all I saw from you was an offensive post that got a hypocritical twist by stating that you didn't want to offend someone. It's like saying "You are an idiot, but I mean that in a friendly way".
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Pegasos running native OS4 apps?
« Reply #74 from previous page: October 13, 2003, 01:52:11 PM »
@Rogue

Well, that's fair enough, I hope that Mr Hermans has thought over all the issues. I personally don't want to see "Two Years" of your work go down the drain.

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do understand you. If in doubt, try to bring it up on AW.net's "Ask Fleecy" session


Do you honestly think I would get an answer? On that note, do you honestly believe anything that Fleecy says? Are you allowed to disscuss this issue?
(or did the smily face say it all? :-D )