Pegasos running native OS4 apps?

[Madgun68]

neither is Morphos.

Huh? Are you replying to someone or just mumbling to yourself?

[Rogue]

@bloodline & meerschaum:
(Yes, I am one of the Frieden brothers).

About the licence:

Please understand what this licence is about. The facts about it have been twisted over and over, but if you look at the essence, it serves its purpose. The main point is that OS 4 will not be available boxed (except for CSPPC and BlizzardPPC). It will only be sold with a board. Secondly, the hardware vendor should, through the licence, be bound to some degree of customer support.

I don't think that the conditions are unreasonable.

To the best of my knowledge, Hyperion does not earn any money from the licence other than the sales of OS 4, but I don't know that for sure.

Microsoft and Asus have more money in their pencil budget than Hyperion earns in ten years, so I don't think that their rules are applicable. Same with Sony and EA.

Yes, OS 4 would benefit from Pegasos support. It would benefit from any additional hardware it supports. However, there is some work involved in porting, maintaining and supporting any new port, and the licence ensures that part of that will be handled by the hardware seller, who also benefits from OS 4 running on his hardware.

I don't understand the argument that Hyperion should be buying a licence from Genesi - you try to argue me out of it by arguing the other way around?

In spite of the ":-)" I find it a bit offensive to say that "hyperion are not into cooperation". In fact we are, since we are cooperating with quite a number of companies. However, as I said before, Cooperation is a two way road, and business is not conducted via mailing lists and bulletin boards.

[meerschaum]

Rogue basically what your saying is that I'm right to think that Hyperion isnt the barrier between AOS4 on Pegasos or not?, do you think if Amiga.inc went under AOS4 would find its way onto Pegasos?...

[Troels_E]

@Meerschaum

Why should it change anything if Amiga Inc went under?
He didn't say Amiga Inc was the reason OS4 isn't targeted at Pegasos(2) atm.

[Rogue]

Rogue basically what your saying is that I'm right to think that Hyperion isnt the barrier between AOS4 on Pegasos or not?, do you think if Amiga.inc went under AOS4 would find its way onto Pegasos?...

No, I didn't say that. Like I said, the licence is in everyone's interest really since it takes away part of the burden of support from us, and it ensures a bit of safety against piracy, which, as you will agree, still poses a rather big thread.

As to what would happen if Amiga Inc goes under, I am not a lawyer. My understanding is that the AmigaOS licence is safe from any sort of demise. What that means for a Pegasos version is highly speculative; I wouldn't think that the outlook would be any different than it is now: The only thing that stands between AmigaOS 4 and the Pegasos is that there is no one holding a licence for OS 4 on the Pegasos hardware.

[Argo]

Well, Morphos would have to have the Amiga OS4 APIs added to their Abox. As for the other way around, it basically the same thing, have to add the native Mophos APIs to AmigaOS.  I assume there may be more to it than that, it seems essencially what would need to be done. Unless you get into emulation or porting OSs. We'll just have to wait and see.

I see both going their own separate ways after a time. Like after both have established commercially released consumer products.

Moderated : Off-Topic Rant.

[Madgun68]

I see both going their own separate ways after a time. Like after both have established commercially released consumer products.

I used to think that way too, but I see it now more like two roads running parallel. It looks like they're heading to the same place, but there's no map so no one knows for sure.

If the paths do head off in different directions, I don't think it'll be any time soon. (Years instead of months.) Of course, I think another thing is that much of the in-fighting that was happening earlier is dying down which helps out in the short term.

[Warface]

Please understand what this licence is about. The facts about it have been twisted over and over, but if you look at the essence, it serves its purpose. The main point is that OS 4 will not be available boxed (except for CSPPC and BlizzardPPC). It will only be sold with a board. Secondly, the hardware vendor should, through the licence, be bound to some degree of customer support.

I don't think that the conditions are unreasonable.

That depends on the conditions, which are not available to us, and you claim that you don't know them either. Or am I mistaken?

[bloodline]

@Rouge

I do see what you are saying, but as the software developer it is your responsibility to support your software. By asking For a licence for the OS you are saying that you don't want to be troubled with support (I know that is a simplified view).

I'm also not sure about the "selling it with the board" sales model that hyperion want to use with their OS. Since that makes sense for the "AmigaONE", does it really make sense for that system?

What if I were to make a PPC board and sell it for 150 Euro,  but one of the ways I keep it at such a low price is that it come with no OS.

Would I then have to buy a licence from Hyperion in order to allow OS4 to run on it?

[Rogue]

That depends on the conditions, which are not available to us, and you claim that you don't know them either. Or am I mistaken?

There was a thread, I think it was either here or on AW.net, where Ben Hermans outlined the conditions. What I know is the following:

- There must be something on the board (or a USB dongle) that allows to distinguish between licenced and non-licenced boards ("the dongle").  What that is is completely up to discussion. Might even be a special firmware version.

- OS 4 must not be sold separately (unless otherwise stated in the licence agreement). Units of OS 4 sold must be included with the board, but it doesn't mean that anyone wanting the board has to buy OS 4.

- Part of the customer support for the licenced board must be taken care of by the manufacturer/licence holder. That is, a customer will contact Eyetech first, and if they can't sort it out, they will contact Hyperion and/or Amiga.

That's about it. I don't know if there is a licence fee at all (other than the costs of a copy of OS 4).

That is what I meant when I said I don't think these conditions are unreasonable. What I mean when I said I don't know the details is that I don't know any details (like fees etc).

Like I said before, the two primary reasons for the licencing are offloading parts of the support burden to the licensee, and prevention of piracy - because if you already have OS 4 with the board, you're not going to copy it. I'm afraid that we cannot take another wave of piracy - too much work, time and money has passed into this.

I'm sure you will understand that.

[Warface]

Will a special dongle be required for each future Hyperion games then? :-)

- OS 4 must not be sold separately (unless otherwise stated in the licence agreement). Units of OS 4 sold must be included with the board, but it doesn't mean that anyone wanting the board has to buy OS 4.

If there was not the few words in the brackets, it'd be utter nonsense. Someone purchases a Pegasos 2 board, and when later decides so that he wants OS4 he has to purchase a new board...

I'm sure you will understand that.

As to the conditions - I think the most important conditions are those which you have omitted. Namely the hard cash part into which the manufacturer/dealer is forced into, and of what we know nothing.

I don't know if there is a licence fee at all (other than the costs of a copy of OS 4).

That's what I've mentioned. I suppose there is.

[Rogue]

I do see what you are saying, but as the software developer it is your responsibility to support your software. By asking For a licence for the OS you are saying that you don't want to be troubled with support (I know that is a simplified view).

And a wrong one, too :-) No honestly, when you look at it most support queries will be the same. Assume (I'm not saying it is the case) that for a certain hardware you have to have your CD-ROM connected as secondary slave because it doen't work otherwise (yeah, I know, it sounds awfully constructed, but it should serve an an example). Instead of having 100 people enquire at Hyperion about that, these 100 people could be on the licencees support mailing list and get that question answered there, because that question is typical for their hardware. The licencee will forward anything that they can't help out to us.

What if I were to make a PPC board and sell it for 150 Euro, but one of the ways I keep it at such a low price is that it come with no OS.

Would I then have to buy a licence from Hyperion in order to allow OS4 to run on it?

I don't understand the question to be honest. If you have a board that costs 150 euros because there is no OS included, then there is no OS included. Period. If you could buy a copy of OS 4 for that board, this would raise the price again, and you wouldn't get away with 150 euro anymore.

The licence wouldn't disallow selling the board with no OS.

I also don't understand the last part of the question - if there is an OS 4 version for the board, it would be available as a bundle with the board (that could mean that a dealer or private individual has bought a licence).

A dealer might want to sell boards with OS 4 as a bundle and make a licence deal with Amiga (not with Hyperion).

[Rogue]

If there was not the few words in the brackets, it'd be utter nonsense. Someone purchases a Pegasos 2 board, and when later decides so that he wants OS4 he has to purchase a new board...

As I said before, you might have a USB dongle, or might have an exchange program where the missing part is fitted to your board.

As to the conditions - I think the most important conditions are those which you have omitted. Namely the hard cash part into which the manufacturer/dealer is forced into, and of what we know nothing.

You are contradicting yourself. You say that a dealer/licencee is forced into a "hard cash part" (note the word "forced"), and in the same sentence admit that you know nothing. Can you elaborate?

That's what I've mentioned. I suppose there is.

You suppose there is? That means you are condemming the whole concept because you assume?

[bloodline]

I see you (Hyperion) have set yourself up in a sticky situation.

If the OS is to come with the board, that really is the best antipiracy option you can have, the dongle is not going to stop piracy.

Obviously, we differ slightly in our view of a business model when it comes to OSes (software and drivers should be commercial but the OS should be free IMHO). But would you not agree that if one OS is better (Better harware and software support)  then people will favour it over another. It seems to my cynical eye that Hyperion are atempting to circumvent people freedom to choose the OS that suits them best.

I really must apologise if seems liek an attack, it is not, I am interested in how people view this.

[Warface]

You suppose there is? That means you are condemming the whole concept because you assume?

I assume that if there were no money involved, and obtaining the licence were so easy as you depict it, we'd have Amiga/Pegasos dealers in a long line offering Pegasos with OS4 "when released".

We have none. Care to explain the phaenomenon?