Flaky software could crash your car

[Glaucus]

And if you think it's only military jets using "fly by wire" then remember that both Airbus and Boeing airliners also have a computer interface between the pilot/s and control surfaces...

A cheery thought for you all

Although true, and I already knew that, military and commercial aircraft have teams of mechanics and technitians constantly checking and upgrading these vehicles. Cars tend to get far less tender loving care, and are often abused. Not only that, many of the mechanics out there are of dubious quality, often improperly fixing the simplest of things.

  - Mike

[Glaucus]

Don't be a tw@t mike. That is the most stupid thing I've heard allday and I work in a Council office!

I'm sticking with my original statement. Anyone doesing exactly 60 in a 60 zone is either a newbie or insecure. All experienced and confident drivers do slightly more, usually 65 or 70 in a 60 zone.

  - Mike

[Waccoon]

What do you want, Mike, a cookie? Even RACE car drivers get into accidents and that's all they do is drive their cars, learning the 'ins and outs' of their machine. You think that 'cos you know your car, you're above the laws of the road and they don't pertain to you? Once again, you've proven my point that ignorance is what kills people. So since you 'know' your car, you feel that you can just 'whip' through traffic how you please??

Just because you know your car doesn't mean you're a good driver.  The best race drivers don't go fast, they drive consistently.  I know the limits of my car (at least now I do, since I recently upgraded my sway bars), and I know NOT to take the car to those limits.  They call it a "limit" for a reason.  :-)

As an enthusiastic driver I cannot see how such an artificial steering system can duplicate the feel of a decent rack and pinion set up. It would be like playing Virtua Racer or something! Just how would such a system cope in event of the engine stalling?

You're right.  That new BMW with variable steering has been getting mixed reviews because it doesn't feel natural and in sync with the road.

Modern arcade racing games are crap.  I miss the heavy, stubborn feel of the Hard Drivin' steering wheel, which actually pulled in all directions depending on how the wheels allilgned with the road.  You had to have some muscle to drive that arcade game, especially the ####pit version!   :-D

What's even funnier is that all the physics were done by a 10Mhz 68010, while two other Texas Instruments CPUs rendered the polygons.  Today's arcade racing games might have quad MIPS CPUs and custom CGI boards, but have all the technical charm of a ferris wheel.

Hey, that's an idea...  require people to turn a few hot laps in Nascar Racing 4 using a custom engineered ####pit before they can get their license!  :-D

[EDIT]:  Whoa, I never knew "cockpit" was a swear word...

[EDIT, part deux]:  I never knew it isn't, provided you put it in quotes!  :-D

[Waccoon]

I'm sticking with my original statement. Anyone doesing exactly 60 in a 60 zone is either a newbie or insecure. All experienced and confident drivers do slightly more, usually 65 or 70 in a 60 zone.

I don't suppose saving gas or cruisin' has anything to do with it?  That's why highways have more than one lane!

I drive 55 between a few exits, 75 over long distances, and 45 everywhere else.  Cops get suspicious if you drive too slow in my town.  :-)

[Methuselas]

Just because you know your car doesn't mean you're a good driver. The best race drivers don't go fast, they drive consistently. I know the limits of my car (at least now I do, since I recently upgraded my sway bars), and I know NOT to take the car to those limits. They call it a "limit" for a reason.

I couldn't have said it better myself, Waccoon.  ;-)

[Glaucus]

What do you want, Mike, a cookie? Even RACE car drivers get into accidents and that's all they do is drive their cars, learning the 'ins and outs' of their machine. You think that 'cos you know your car, you're above the laws of the road and they don't pertain to you? Once again, you've proven my point that ignorance is what kills people. So since you 'know' your car, you feel that you can just 'whip' through traffic how you please??

Here, read this report and educate yourself: Is speed killing us?



  - Mike

[DanDude]

Whoa!!  I =CAN= drive faster without killing anyone.   :-D  *puts pedal to medal*   Vrrooommm....

Good, now we can concentrate on reducing accidents from alcohol and drug related cases.   :-)

[Animagic]

Jose Date: 2004/1/20 1:44:58
Hmm, how do you guys think a car would run with windows installed?

DONT EVEN THINK ABOU IT!!!!!!!  :-o  :-o  :-o

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

[Methuselas]

Here, read this report and educate yourself: Is speed killing us?

Michael, Michael, Michael. I baited, you hooked. I NEVER said anything about driving too slow or slower than the speed limit. I was defending the right to OBEY the laws, which you don't encourage.

Never once, in any of my posts, did I mention driving slower than the speed limit. If you want to get technical, driving the SPEED LIMIT (I know it's difficult for you to understand, so bear with me) has a LOWER accident rate than driving 'slower' than the speed limit and that shows by your diagram.

I wasn't discussing 'speeding' per se, I was more referring to the ignorance of drivers. The guy that hit you, when he ran the red light, odds are, he was speeding. Why?? 'Cos he RAN a red light. It's a known thing that the Yellow light does not mean 'caution' to the average driver, it means 'speed up, 'cos God FORBID you have to wait at a red light.'

People get into accidents, 'cos they change lanes without looking, run stopsigns or stoplights, disregard 'no left turn' signs, etc. Hell, there are idiots that kill people 'cos the go the wrong way on a street.

Seems to me that I said NOTHING about speeding. It's illegal here to talk on your phone and drive, but people do it anyways. Why? 'Cos they don't give a sh!t. We've had people here that have been hit by our new light rail, 'cos they turned where there was a 'no left turn' sign. Why?? 'Cos they didn't give a sh!t.

We've had fatalities on our HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle) Lanes, 'cos people go the WRONG way??!!?? Inbound in the morning, outbound in the evening. It's not hard. An eight-year old knows the difference, but there are people that go the wrong way, 'cos they 'forget' and end up killing someone.

If people were to keep the 'car's length' distance that is described in EVERY driver's manual I've seen, you wouldn't have as many rear end collisions. If people didn't IGNORE posted signs, that are there for their protection, there would be fewer accidents. Speeding was never the problem I was referring to. Negligence was and always will be the primary cause of traffic collisions.

Show me some statistics that say 'Disobeying Traffic Laws and Posted Signs reduce driving accidents' and I  MIGHT offer some sort of apology.

Otherwise, pay attention to what people write, instead of trying to justify your position with articles of text and graphs that do not correlate with your opposition's point of view. We were discussing something entirely different. I do agree that speeding doesn't cause as many accidents, but Fung Choi in his souped-up, rice rocket who races up and down the roads (not highways, mind you), isn't exactly HELPING reduce traffic collisions.

[Speelgoedmannetje]

Sorry, but I rather go by bicycle (healthy :-) ) or well-funded public transport.

[KrasH]

Well here in Australia the Holden Maloo ute (Holden is GM) has a pretty meaty V8 motor, goes pretty quick, but it is known that when the computer in the cars management has a fit (quite offen)the car would shut down and then the car has to be taken to a dealer to get the computer reset.

I myself drive a 2003 Ford Falcon XR6 Turbo (impressive car, pretty quick, wieghs 1,785kg, 4.0ltr straight 6, turbo charged at 6psi max, 240kw, 0-100km/h in 5.9 seconds, 0-400m in 13.95 seconds) and most of the cars systems are integrated into the computer (engine management system, Car audio, car alarm, smart lock, basically everything with electrinics). Smart car makers integrate safe guards upon safe guards to basically make something fool proof. EG. The accelerator system in my car is computer controlled, no wire going from the accelerator directly to the throttle body. There are actually 3 sensors in and around the accelerator peddle. If even one of the of the sensors fails (has a slightly different value to the others) the computer will then make the engine only rev at 2,500 rpm max, thus allowing for safe stopping. Hasn't happened to anyone as far as I know. Although there had been the odd engine shutdown due to computer stuffing around in the first few months of the model (BA Falcon) being available. Even when this happened the computer would reset it's values and let the car go as if nothing had happened. But since then PCM updates have solved those minor software issues that made the engine stop. Although the updates until a few months ago were unable to happen properly due to some software issues with the WDS software thanks to FORD in the US. Basically the PCM had to be updated physically, whereas now it's all done in software.

The engine management system is also adaptive. This basically means that the computer changes values depending on the way you drive the car. I have 13,500km on the clock and I've gotta say that the engine feels better and smoother. No more of the "computer is holding it back" feel it used to have

Personally I can't wait for the 15,000km service apparently there are some nice computer updates that are now available for my car.

That said, the only good software is software that can recover safely after a failure. Last thing you need is for an unforseen condition to accure and then have the engine stop on you. In terms of brakes, these are one thing that will always stay like the old way. Not computer controlled thats for sure.

[AccyD]

PMC wrote:
BMW offers an electronically controlled variable rate rack on the new 5 Series.

BMW's are crap - believe me I work in a authroised repairer, and the number of faults we have is tremendous.

[KrasH]

A bloke I know had a brand new 5 series BMW go up in flames for no reason a few weeks ago. All that was left was the cars body shell..

In terms of reliability there is no car on the planet that is 100% perfect. The nature of production lines.

[Glaucus]

and most of the cars systems are integrated into the computer (engine management system, Car audio, car alarm, smart lock, basically everything with electrinics).

all that controlled by one, central ECU??? Hmmm...  Something sounds weird. What if you wanna install an after market stereo???

There are actually 3 sensors in and around the accelerator peddle.

Throttle position sensors? Hmmm...  That reminds me, my budy's Intrepid kept dying on him after running for a few minutes. He got it to limp home, and the next day toed it to the dealer. The problem turned out to be the crank angle sensor. This sensor basically determines which spark plug is to fire (as opposed to the older style which used a distributer, geared directly to the crank). Anyway, with the sensor faulty, the engine kept losing it's timing, eventually not knowing which cylinder to fire and the car would just die. This tells us two things: 1) Your on board computers are only as good as your sensors are, and 2) maintenance of these sensors is only as good as the computer diagnostic feedback. It's quite possible that the sensor was going for some time now and that they were driving around with less then optimum timing - resulting in poor feul economy and possibly even damaging the engine. If you're gonna put so much trust in these sensors then the car needs to be able to self-test the sensors and report any problems in a MEANINGFUL manner (not just a Service Engine light).

Also, like others have mentioned, military fly-by-wire systems exist, and work well, but they also often have redundant systems. I've yet to see any redundancy in cars yet.

In terms of brakes, these are one thing that will always stay like the old way. Not computer controlled thats for sure.

Ah, but that's exactly what drive-by-wire is all about. No more hydrolic breaks and even the steering will be done electronically, not mechanically.

  - Mike

[Glaucus]

BMW's are crap - believe me I work in a authroised repairer, and the number of faults we have is tremendous.

Well, according to Consumer Reports, BMW was the only German car maker to be in the top 50% in terms of quality control/reliability. VW was the worst ranking German car maker, ranking lower then some North American makers. Audi was slightly better, as was Mercedes. Topping the list were all the Japanese makers (none of which made it to the bottom 50%). Toyota and Honda were the top two in quality/reliability.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot about Porsche. They ranked in the top 50% as well, but can't remember how they compared to BMW.

And yes, Consumer Reports needs to be taken with a grain of salt, but it's typically pretty close. Toyota/Honda have always had the reputation of being top in terms of reliability, while VW has been known to kinda suck in that department (which is too bad, as otherwise they make some nice cars).

  - Mike

[KrasH]

Unlike some other cars, the BA Falcon has everything integrated cosmetically aswell... No adding after market stereos in the console, but there are ways around it. Standard stereo has an LCD screen, whereas the premium stereo (which I have) has colour screen (and it's 6 disc in dash, has a 150watt amp that powers a subwoofer in the back.) The screens have all the stereo/radio, A/c time etc integrated. Anyways, all to do with security and insurance premiums. That's why I pay about 1/4 of the insurance premiums that a similarly performing and priced Suburu WRX does, even though they have 6 point immobilizers etc. They have a normal stereo, so people steal them.

Anyways, many an American car reviewer has tested the XR6 Turbo here in Australia. The most common thread "The Falcon XR6 Turbo is what the Ford Taurus should've been, but is no where near".  Apparently one of the ford execs in Detroit has one of these Australian Made Falcon XR6 Turbo's as his ride

Some history. A few years back FoMoCo in the US wanted to stop the falcon and replace it with the Taurus here in Australia. But then Ford Australia showed them how to make a proper car, again  and again (oh the AU was a flop here, looked ugly) then again with the BA.