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Offline amigamadTopic starter

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Flaky software could crash your car
« on: January 19, 2004, 05:44:19 PM »
Oye Oyediran has taken his car to the repair shop three times for software upgrades since he bought it last year. This is the future of driving.  Cars, planes, household appliances and myriad other machines are increasingly relying on software to work. Manufacturers want the flexibility and innovation that programming code can bring.  But software can also make machines accidentally stop working, something computer manufacturers know all too well.

The link is here Flaky software

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Offline kolla

Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2004, 06:03:59 PM »
Could someone shov this article up under BBRV's nose?  :-D
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Offline KennyR

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2004, 06:36:16 PM »
Why, is this bbrv's fault too? I know he was responsible for both world wars and also the Iranian earthquake. That man is a menace.

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Offline amigamadTopic starter

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2004, 06:48:33 PM »
Why is it anything to do with bbrv its microsofts software and the fault of car maker bmw which im glad there having problems  after the way they tryed to run rover into the ground . :-o  :-o
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Offline Glaucus

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2004, 07:04:06 PM »
Personally, I never cared for drive-by-wire, I think it's a stupid idea! A simple electrical glitch and the entire car would be disabled! If my Supra was drive-by-wire, I'd probably be dead now as my battery died while I was on the highway a few months back. If it were a drive-by-wire car, my entire car would have been out of control at over 100km/hr at night time, and without the possibility of using my brakes. Seems like a dumb idea to me.

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Offline Waccoon

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2004, 07:46:34 PM »
Quote
Flaky software could crash your car

I doubt it will come to that.  The basic functions of a car are very well established.  People cause a million times more accidents every year from sheer neglect.

My concern is that people will become so confident in the performance of their cars, that they take the car to the limit.  If the car yaws, traction control kicks in to correct the angle.  If traction control fails, the car will spin.  The result?  Oh, don't blame the driver for acting like a maniac -- blame the software!

As for things like the radio and A/C, well, those are hardly critical systems.  The worst that can happen is that your wipers will engage unexpectedly and cause a distraction.  But, if that distraction is enough to cause a crash, you were probably driving too fast to begin with!

Only one thing prevents crashes:  SLOW DOWN.

Quote
QNX Software Systems makes software for both. Bugs might present minor problems, but the Canadian company has found a way to keep devices from crashing completely, says product management director Sachin Lawande.

The key is to make software in a way that allows parts of the code to fail without crashing the whole system, Lawande said. Instead of trying to make an entire operating system work without a single bug - all but impossible, Lawande says - QNX concentrates on a tiny piece of code called a microkernel that must be foolproof.

But, people don't program like that.  Every module plugged into the kernel depends on some other module, and it's all tied together.  A microkernel approach may save some low-level processes from really screwing up (like the filesystem), but if one piece of the OS goes down, chances are the whole system will need to be restarted.

What happens if your graphic driver messes up and makes the screen go blank?  All most people can do is reach for the reset button.

Microkernel architecture makes it easier to discover and trace bugs, but I doubt it really improves reliability.  Besides, the only thing that runs in kernel space these days are drivers, and they have to run very fast and are typically impractical or difficult to run in user space.  I wouldn't be surprised if memory protected drivers are less reliable than kernel drivers, simply because all the extra hoops you need to jump through increases complexity.

Besides, most bugs these days don't cause the system to crash... they cause unexpeted behavior.  If menus disappear randomly, is that going to cause a fault that will let the OS know something went wrong, or will it just be "one of those things"?

Quote
Outside of the microkernel, "any piece of code cannot be trusted not to fail", Lawande says. Glitches might happen, but they'll be non-fatal errors easily caught in testing, he says.

Provided they test properly and adequately.  Low-level components of operating systems are usually very clean, simple, and compact.  It's the development tools you have to worry about.

Yeah, load up a 2Meg library and only use 2% of its capabilities.  Why not use a smaller, more specific library?  Too much trouble.

Linux is bombproof, but man, the KDE desktop is provoking me to put my fist throught the monitor.  I can't believe people bitch about Windows when Linux desktops are just as slow, inefficient, and full of bugs!  Think the Windows System32 folder is a mess?  Why not take a look at /usr/bin or /etc!  Thousands of files, names that don't make sense, manuals, libraries, and config files scattered all over the place... yeah, that looks much better.

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Testing is part of the problem, says Humphrey of Carnegie-Mellon. Software makers test their products based on their assumptions of how the products will be used, he says. Bugs happen when software is asked to do something programmers didn't see coming.

Programmers and engineers are still asked to do things they either hate doing, or lack appropriate skills.  Products are developed, debugged by more engineers, and sent over to manufacturing without consulting people trained in usability testing.

If there's one word I can use to describe the computer industry, it is Impatience.

Quote
The software industry, still about 40 to 50 years young, was built and pioneered by smart people who didn't follow the rules.

Early computers were purpose-built machines.  The people who made them only had to follow their own rules, because people who programmed servers and mainframes were the people who ran them.  Or, full-time technicians gave support 24/7.  People knew what the computer was supposed to do.

These days, computers are built to do any indiscriminate number of things, and cater to the preferences of millions of different people.  There's too much drive to make an all-in-one box that does everything adaquately and nothing very well.

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Offline amigamadTopic starter

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2004, 07:51:31 PM »
Quote
Personally, I never cared for drive-by-wire, I think it's a stupid idea! A simple electrical glitch and the entire car would be disabled! If my Supra was drive-by-wire, I'd probably be dead now as my battery died while I was on the highway a few months back. If it were a drive-by-wire car, my entire car would have been out of control at over 100km/hr at night time, and without the possibility of using my brakes. Seems like a dumb idea to me.



True very scary thought its bad enough if your engine stops running while your moving if you have power steering its very hard to turn the wheel . :-?
I once had an amigaone xe but sold it .

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Offline amigamadTopic starter

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2004, 07:58:13 PM »
Quote
Only one thing prevents crashes: SLOW DOWN.


Not true speed does not cause more acidents german autobahns prove that they have less crashes  than us here in england. Ive done a 140 mph without any crashing no more dangerous than doing 70 on a clear road.
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Offline weirdami

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2004, 08:19:43 PM »
One big thing that causes crashes is people swerving in and out of traffic like their in some kind of hurry to get to the next red light.
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Offline KennyR

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2004, 08:19:59 PM »
Quote
Ive done a 140 mph without any crashing no more dangerous than doing 70 on a clear road.


It's a lot more dangerous, even on a clear road. Try doing 140 mph on an Autobahn, and even with no speed limit, see how long it is before you're stopped. Or you hit a dead crow on the road, hit a barrier, and turn into tinfoil.
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2004, 09:33:40 PM »
Quote
True very scary thought its bad enough if your engine stops running while your moving if you have power steering its very hard to turn the wheel .

Welcome to the 1960's!  I can only imagine what it was like to drive a '49 Packard with no power steering or brakes.  :-)

Quote
Blah blah 140 MPH blah...

People who drive 140 MPH usually have good cars and know how to drive them.  Here in the USA, we have very few accidents on i495, which is a huge, smooth road 4-lanes wide.  There are rarely accidents not related to someone falling asleep at the wheel, DUI, or a blown tire...

...in downtown Bellingham, however, it's common for cars to jump the guardrails on the i495 exit, and people slam into trees frequently due to invisible gravel on the road.  I really pisses me off to see SUVs zoom through downtown at high speed because they have all wheel drive.  I don't suppose these people know basic math:  four wheels times zero traction equals zero traction.

(I own a Subaru, BTW, so I know all about AWD.  In fact, I had to push someone else's Impreza out of a snowbank, once!)

Next to the lumberyard, there is a 4-way intersection with no lights, where the legal speed limit is 30.  But, since it's a downhill road, people zoom through at 50+ MPH without even looking.  Naturally, we have several rollovers there every year.  The town won't install lights because there's hardly any traffic on that road, which, of course, makes people drive even faster.

If you want a good example of how speed kills, try driving through the raised highways of Providence, RI.  80+ MPH on a crumbling road two lanes wide.  Only New Jersey has worse drivers.  I went to a convention in Pennsylvania a few years ago, and I had to drive through NJ.  That was the first time I ever broke 100 MPH on a raised highway!  Of course, you either go with the flow or get run over.   :-o

I will never, ever go to NJ again!
 

Offline amigamadTopic starter

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2004, 10:18:21 PM »
Quote
People who drive 140 MPH usually have good cars and know how to drive them.



Nothing special just a 9 year old vauxhall cavalier 2.5 v6 .ive been driving about 8 years now so i know how to drive .i only done that speed once to test the car when i had not had it to long and dont intend going much above a 120 now.
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Offline KennyR

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2004, 10:30:24 PM »
Everybody thinks they're a good driver. The road deaths statistics disagree.
 

Offline Methuselas

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2004, 11:10:35 PM »
Well, I can honestly say I am a good driver. I don't change lanes without signaling, I'm a corteous driver, I stop at stop signs. I OBEY the traffic laws. Why?? 'Cos they're here to protect me. I was nearly hit 2 times today,  one of which 'cos someone wanted over in my lane, but didn't bother to signal and just moved into my lane. I had to slam the breaks, just to keep me from sideswiping this @$$hole. Then, he has the NERVE to give ME the finger.

I've been in one accident my entire life, on an open road. A cow just walked into the road and I swerved to avoid him. He paniced and slammed the back of my Camaro, spinning me out of control to crash into a sewer pipe. They had to use the jaws of life to get me out of my car, 'cos I had hit the pipe so hard, it bent my car's frame into an 'L', trapping me inside. I was stuck like that for 3 hours.

The only ticket I got was for going a whopping 3 miles over the speed limit. I was wearing my fatigues and on my way back to base. #### head cop pulled me over and asked me how fast I was going, so I told him. He then told me that I should watch my speed, 'cos he didn't have time to mess with 'punk, military men' like myself. I, in my usual smart @$$ style of course, said 'sure thing, Boss. You might want to watch those donuts, 'cos your uniforms getting a bit tight' , so he slams me with a speeding ticket for 43 in a 40 (later dismissed and the officer in question reprimanded for 'wasting' the cities tax dollars. It pays to show up in court in your Class A's.)

In my 15 years of driving, I've gotten one ticket and been in a single accident that didn't involve another driver. I don't drive like a 'bat out of hell' and I don't get road rage, but that's not due to the ignorance of other drivers. Most people are more concerned with talking on their cell phones, or friends in the car, or just to get where they want to go, they don't even THINK about or even that there ARE other drivers on the road,  besides them.

I swear, living in Texas sucks. I'm not suprised if they give out driver's licenses in Cracker Jack Boxes here. Most people don't deserve them. :-?
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Offline Lo

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Re: Flaky software could crash your car
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2004, 11:39:08 PM »
Quote
True very scary thought its bad enough if your engine stops running while your moving if you have power steering its very hard to turn the wheel .


Ever since cars were equipped with processors, they have had a "Safe mode" as a default should a CPU or one of the many sensors die.  This would show up on your dashboard as a "Check Engine" or "Service Soon" light.   Your car is now not using a processor and your mileage will be terrible, but otherwise safe.
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