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Offline SHADES

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #29 from previous page: November 11, 2003, 04:49:04 AM »
@greenboy
I agree. Moving forward is productive, but before this turns into debate on which is better, the OS of the platform AMIGA has been moving forward, 1.0 1.2 2.0 2.1 3.0 3.1 3.5 3.9 and now 4.0 promised with new hardware base.

Even Microsoft is threatened my Linux.

It's not crazy or mean spirited to have a commmuninty of people passionate about their platform. If it wasn't for that passion, there would be no AMIGa or probabaly Morph OS either. So I don't see it as really a need for debate. It's a natural reaction for anyone defending something they have passion for.  
If I took Linus T from Linux over to Microsoft to help with development of the opperating system, do you think the Linux community would be happy? Do you think they would see that as a positive step perhaps?

If Morph OS is indeed there to migrate users over to a better platform, why are we divided? why is there need to debate ? is it forward or sideways. It's not really AMIGA OS, neither is Be.
I'm not being mean and I'm sure they won't stop their company, they are making money and creating their own user base.
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Offline downix

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2003, 05:05:09 AM »
@Shades

We are divided because some folk (on both sides, mind you) cannot handle the thought of there being 2 choices.  (Remember the WarpUP vs PowerUP wars from a few years back)  They get obsessed with there being only the OTW (One True Way) and anything else is a blasphemy.

Fact is, there is another option, the boing ball is not the only way, and in fact, there are benefits to something not-name-brand, or the other-name-brand.  (I, for one, prefer Pepsi over Coca-Cola)  This division comes from a lack of acknowledging of the common history.  "We are from the Amiga, they cannot be, they are an imposter."

From my viewpoint, if both OS's do well it will be a testiment to the foresight of those first engineers at HiTorro, to the genius of Carl, RJ, Dale and the rest of them, making an OS that is fast, scalable, and most of all desirable.  Heck, if one does well and the other fades away, the one that remains will be stronger due to the struggle against its sibling.
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Offline dammy

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #31 on: November 11, 2003, 05:30:33 AM »
Poster: downix Date: 2003/11/11 0:05:09

Quote
We are divided because some folk (on both sides, mind you) cannot handle the thought of there being 2 choices. (Remember the WarpUP vs PowerUP wars from a few years back) They get obsessed with there being only the OTW (One True Way) and anything else is a blasphemy.


 Three choices, thank you very much. ;)

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Offline gary_c

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #32 on: November 11, 2003, 05:35:05 AM »
Quote
REBOL is yet to become as pervasive as it could potentially do and in the meantime there are other favourites of each operating system.


Dave, it's great that we have you around to help us keep our enthusiasm in check. Somehow certain individuals got kind of excited about the idea that REBOL -- which has wrangled a reputation as a fairly imaginative scripting language, and which has certain roots that we tend to appreciate -- might find a home on a little platform trying to get bootstrapped.

Fortunately you've weighed in with your armchair analysis and, if anyone takes it seriously, this will properly curb any undue palpitations. Certainly, the idea of a REBOL SDK not being available for the Pegasos platform (despite the apparent harmony between REBOL's strengths and Genesi's business targets) would be much preferable, and clearly the fact that REBOL hasn't fully lived up to its potential means it's a dead end and should be dumped.

Thank you. Another effort to grow synergistically rightfully squashed.  ;-)

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Offline TheMagicM

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #33 on: November 11, 2003, 06:25:16 AM »
at times I wonder when and if people will get over the Amiga/Pegasos war... I feel like I'm watching over children fighting over toys... Cant some of you (and you know who you are) keep your comments to yourself?  I'm glad I'm a tolerant moderator.
PowerMac G5 dual 2.0ghz/128meg Radeon/500gb HD/2GB RAM, MorphOS 3.9 registered, user #1900
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Offline DaveP

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #34 on: November 11, 2003, 08:22:10 AM »
Quote

Dave, it's great that we have you around to help us keep our enthusiasm in check.

Oh dear, did I say something you didn't want to hear?

OK, so Dave should now expect some pretty daft sniping in the rest of your followup rather than reasoned counter argument.

Quote

Somehow certain individuals got kind of excited about the idea that REBOL -- which has wrangled a reputation as a fairly imaginative scripting language,

Never argued with that.

Quote

and which has certain roots that we tend to appreciate --

See nothing here to back up Waynes statement and certainly nothing I argued with.

Quote

might find a home on a little platform trying to get bootstrapped.

No argument there, I stated clearly what my issue was and my reasons why - what do you think you are trying to achieve with this tangent?

The problem you are going to get, out there in the REAL world, is when running around saying "we run REBOL we run REBOL" the real world will turn around and say "so?".

Why is that? Because the people using it, are most definately in the minority.

Quote

Fortunately you've weighed in with your armchair analysis and,
.....  if anyone takes it seriously ....
.... this will properly curb any undue palpitations.


Gary, why do you bother to weigh in if you cannot bear the thought that someone might actually have a point. I don't see you arguing here with any counter arguments, merely attacking me as an "armchair analyst" who people should not really take seriously.

And you are sitting on....? No Gary, I think if you are going
to lower yourself to this level I think you should show exactly where REBOL has gained such a central role in scripting and system automation that makes what Wayne sayes not a serious exaggeration.


I ask you, out there in the real world, where it counts, how many people are using REBOL versus say, PHP, Python, Perl and BASH?



Quote

Certainly, the idea of a REBOL SDK not being available for the Pegasos platform (despite the apparent harmony

Yes of course, because this is so pertinent to what I said above.


Quote

between REBOL's strengths and Genesi's business targets)

Ahem, which are? What are Genesi's business targets and REBOLs matching strengths? You brought the subject up and I have yet to see the former articulated clearly.

Quote

would be much preferable, and clearly the fact that REBOL hasn't fully lived up to its potential means it's a dead end and should be dumped.

Is that your view? A pretty strange one, certainly not mine which you would know if you had read my response without prejudice.

Quote

Thank you. Another effort to grow synergistically rightfully squashed.

Don't let Bill Hoggett see you use language like that. ;-)

Despite its technical credentials REBOL will not bring a flood of new users to the "Pegasos" or attract any, this is the truth of the matter.
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Offline gary_c

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #35 on: November 11, 2003, 02:36:46 PM »
[Edited for clarity.]

Quote
Oh dear, did I say something you didn't want to hear?

No. Really, no need for melodrama. More darkly realistic things were said about the present state of Rebol on the Phoenix lists, etc., after Genesi posed the question. Nobody's expecting miracles; but it's a cool development and could add incrementally to the viability of the platform.

It's just funny how predictably you add your bit to try to dampen things; I'm sure you'd claim that you'd have exactly the same reaction if it were AOS being considered for this kind of comprehensive Rebol port (although I'm not sure how the multi-OS aspect would figure in there). But I'd kind of have to see that reaction from you to believe it, if you know what I mean. In the meantime, the predictability of your response is just tiresome. We know the circumstances around Rebol and RT right now, and we know this step won't spark any miracles, but it's still a seriously  cool development. I'm just tired of the petty, partisan negativism.

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Offline DaveP

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2003, 03:05:40 PM »
@Gary_C

 :-o
Hate figure. :lol:
 

Offline cecilia

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2003, 03:55:18 PM »
Shades:
Quote
@ cecilia   No, you were talking about what describes an event. I dissagree with that statement. It doesn't take intelligence to make an event, or a memorable one even.
I'm talking about what is an EVENT in MY life. (as an artist I try to be creative everyday. every single day!)

obviously doo doo is an event in your life.

:lol:
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Offline SHADES

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2003, 09:33:05 PM »
@downix
True but Pepsi and Coke are not struggleing for a user base.
Linux and microsoft was a bad example because neither are they, but it gets the point I was trying to make accross. How can the father of the OS moving to another platform that is clearly aimed at it's user base be taken as a good sign for AMIGA. You clearly stated (Fact is, there is another option, the boing ball is not the only way, and in fact, there are benefits to something not-name-brand, or the other-name-brand.)

That's what? andother option to choose another opperating system?? Well sure, I could even go to Windows, but Windows is not aimed at AMIGA specificaly. As I used before the Linus Torvolds example, going to program for, I dunno, let's say HP unix.

As I said perviously, how would the linux community feel about that.
You have made an alternative to AOS, aimed at the AMIGA community as an alternative or whatever, met some, not all resistance, and then gone and with money, taken the person who designed the OS for AMIGA in the forst place to help work on this alternative system.

AMIGA users all sit back and go, well I'll be, that's not very nice, we are worried about folding yet again, and someone goes and moves a hand like this against us yet again. I wonder if Bill G is invloved. Or some crap like that.

No person who is interested in the AMIGA's survival is going to see this as a positive sign.  It's a great sign for people of Morph OS especialy if they came from the AMIGA and liked that platform, they just got it's designer in to contribute!!.

As for your last comment, I already have agreed with that. As I said previously, if it wasn't for this community standing by the NAME it is so passionate about, you would have neither opperating system. What's your point there? Of courese the stonger will remain, as I also said previously, most AMIGA people are not going to see this as a good sign, most will say it's another step to snuff the light. Another hand against them. It is not going to be seen as a positive step forwad to a company (AMIGA) already short on funds, that is trying to once again pick itself up and fight forward as an opperating system. It has a passionate community and that's the only thing keeping it's head up, it's the whole reason for another OS revision. It's not good for AMIGA, it's great for MorphOS.
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Offline gary_c

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2003, 01:28:50 AM »
SHADES wrote:
Quote
No person who is interested in the AMIGA's survival is going to see this as a positive sign


Well, it all comes back to what you define as "AMIGA". If you define it as "Amiga, Inc. and its official partners," then you might have something to worry about here. If you define it as "natural (but unofficial in terms of IP purchases) progressions of the classic Commodore Amiga platform," (or as those two combined) then it's definitely a positive step.

This has been argued to death, though, and so to be civil I imagine people will just have to agree to disagree about where the Amiga legacy actually is these days.

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Offline SHADES

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2003, 02:39:20 AM »
@gary
That's a pointless statement. If you were to define AMIGA as commodore then it's already dead.

If we are still discussing MorphOS It's not a progression of the original classic platform at all it's another opperating system. They will tell you that themselves! It's aimed and capturing the feel Of AMIGA OS perhaps, but it's not the AMIGA OS Opperating System. It's like running Linux on AMIGA HW. That's not an AMIGA, it's linux. OR Unix on your 4000T that's not AMIGA, that's an AMIGA computer running Unix.

Or perhaps you could run windows, all pointless. If AMIGA OS ran on your Athlon 2800 and ran AMIGA application nativly, ie, we never had a 68000 in an AMIGA, we used Intel from day one, then it would be AMIGA. Just like you can have an IBM clone PC these days with Linux called a linux box, or Windows, or BE etc......
 
I think it's quite obvious actually. but it's probably easier to describe what it isn't.  It's not MorphOS, it's not Linux, it's not BE, etc, etc. It's AMIGA.

The opperating system is what is trying to be discussed, the AMIGA opperating system can't be descibed any other way. The point raised is bringing over the person responsible for AMIGA OS to another OS  because AMIGA is in a state that is nearly there to bury it for good. Little funding, small userbase.
 It doesn't matter what hardware it's run under, if it's running the computer, it's classed as an opperating system. It is the software that allows you to use the hardware in a productive and usefull way.
If it changes hardware, it does, as long as it retains the ability it was designed for. Emulation is not as efficient, so that's why it is being re-written. It's not MorphOs, or any other system. You talk about progression, I'd say it's more like migration, just like a windows user moving to Linux. He may consider Linux to be the natural progression of the Windows enviroment for him.

Pointless.  I'm sure this argument has been fought to death, but it doesn't stop a small community from banding together to try and keep an opperating enviroment they enjoy up and in use.  However! if you were to say to me, MorphOS is the version OS3.5 and I run AMIGA os 3.0, then well yes, you would be very right! but MorphOS is MorphOs, not AMIGA os at all.

If MorphOs was 3.5 it would be used as such. It is not, it is another opperating system that is on offer as a replacment to what AMIGA users currently use and whoever else want's to use it.
To bring the developer of the AMIGA OS over to help make Morph OS is a kick in the teeth to AMIGA users. However that doesn't make it AMIGA OS. Just as Linus programming for Microsoft would not make Windows into Linux but if Linux was in the postion of AI, with very little funds, it would sure worry the Linux community.
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Offline downix

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2003, 03:29:12 AM »
@Shades

But noone has called MorphOS AmigaOS... except you.  MorphOS is MorphOS, it is a step forward *from* AmigaOS.  It keeps what we liked about AmigaOS, but gives a framework to progress the platform.  It is from the community *for* the community.  To deny its place is to deny the very community spirit that fostered it.
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Offline SHADES

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2003, 03:45:19 AM »
@downix
what the, quote me if I'm wrong, oh hang on, I'll quote myself "If MorphOs was 3.5 it would be used as such. It is not, it is another opperating system that is on offer as a replacment to what AMIGA users currently use and whoever else want's to use it."

I have said Morph OS is Morph OS. it's not a step forward, it's sideways, or migrating to another opperating system.
Downix, Morph Os is not the progression of the AMIGA opperating system, it is another opperating system.
It dsoesn't matter who wrote it, man, Microsoft could go write an OS and call it zuse. It runs zuse applictaions, but it's not Windows. Sure Microsoft made it.

Morph is not even based on AMIGA OS's code.  Morph Os is MorphOS, it's an alternative to AMIGA OS. Period.
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Offline downix

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2003, 03:59:11 AM »
@Shades

Are we even talking about the same OS here?  I'm talking about the AmigaOS that was modular.  I'm talking about the AmigaOS that can and does have 3rd party replacements to almost every single system component, including 3rd party exec.libraries.  There are folk out there running AmigaOS without a single Commodore designed library.

Where do you define AmigaOS when every single component can and is replaceable without breaking the whole.  Where do you draw the line?
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Offline SHADES

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Re: Rebol for MorphOS
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2003, 04:16:49 AM »
@downix
Oh a different angle now?
>>There are folk out there running AmigaOS without a single Commodore designed library.
What, Linux? or are we talking MOrph OS now :)) lol

I agree, I have friends who run Windows and there is not 1 single Commodore Libray in that, infact it's even called Microsoft Windows. Yup even people who run Linux on the AMIGA classic Hardware, that's not AMIGa either though is it?, that's Linux.  If I was able to run Windows on my classic AMIGA hardware, would I be using AMIGA? Would it be an AMIGA or just another WINDOWS box?

I know lots of differnt libraries for Windows that ar not Windows libraries, how about Linux ones :)) I'm sure we could go on.

It's quite simple. MorphOs is in direct competition with AMIGA Os. It's an alternative to the AMIGA OS and it is being offered as such.
It is not AMIGA Os, it has nver claimed to be AMIGA OS, it is offering another opperating system to use INSTEAD of AMIGA OS.  It is claiming to have a similar "feel" to that of AMIGA OS. I guess BE could be considered to "feel" like only the best bits of M$ Windows opperating system, but it's not Windows, it's BE. Pointless.

Even your 3rd party libraries and programs that enhance the AMIGA OS still have to run on it's foundation. Directory Opus runs under Windows now, but that doesn't make it "Opus opperating system"

If the 3rd party "enhancements" Don't run under AMIGA os enviroment, they crash. or fail to work or if they change the code, then they could be labled as a trancoder, or emulator.

Easy to draw the line. Morph OS is an Alternative, that's what it is, it's not the AMIGA OS, nor does it pretend to be. It is in direct competition with the AMIGA OS, and having Carl S brought in is just another blow to the already dented AMIGA OS community.
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