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Author Topic: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.  (Read 32250 times)

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Offline Targhan

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #74 on: August 12, 2003, 03:45:52 AM »
Regards,
Targhan
 

Offline Jose

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #75 on: August 12, 2003, 03:51:03 AM »
@Targham

Right, questioning it's right to exist and saying:"We do not understand why MorphOS and Pegasos are at Amiga shows" are tow different things you know....
Some people are of the opinion that if MOS is so great why can't they make it on their own? I think that was the point.

@kennyR

"It didn't really matter that is was aimed at MOS. But this is a newsletter; can you imagine the outrage if the Genesi website demanded that A1s weren't allowed at AmiWest because they were "Teron CX linux boxes"?"

First of all noone demanded anything, they guy said in the newsletter itself it is his opiinion. Then heck why shouldn't they? If Genesi posted that as an opinion why not?It's would be their  opinion.  Many people have posted worse things and they didn't got deteted.
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Offline downix

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #76 on: August 12, 2003, 03:53:29 AM »
Quote
Too damn right, but if either Genesi or AInc would only aim their business at us, and fight over us, the sad remnants of a former market, then they bloody well deserve what they've got coming - failure.


I don't know about Hyperion, Eyetech or AInc, but I did not spend the past 2 months working on MorphOS.net to cater to AmigaOS fans.  I worked hard to make it appealing to a broader base, to expand our community beyond it's niche.  Otherwise, the old MorphOS site would have been fine, a nice narrow-band webpage.  Instead, I focused on "what would sell MorphOS to other people?"

There's plenty of room for growth.
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Offline AmigaHeretic

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #77 on: August 12, 2003, 03:58:35 AM »
@Seehund

I totally agree with you.

If MorphOS or AmigaOS are ever really going to prosper then they need to go x86.   I'm not saying they should leave PPC all together, but if you want to sell more then a few thousand copies of your OS then you need to look at targeting the 100s of millions of computers out there and there all x86.

I can understand why Genesi wants PPC.  They make hardware and probably couldn't compete if they were making just another x86 board.  I understand that, but I just don't see how MorphOS will ever sell more than a few thousands copies.

As for AmigaInc? I have no idea why they are going the PPC route.  People seem to think AmigaOS couldn't compete in the x86 market?  WTF??  If you can't get people to buy AmigaOS for say $99 bucks to run on their current computer then HOW IN THE HELL do you think you can get them to pay $99 for Amiga OS and $1000 + for a 'special' computer to run it on?

People might fork out $99 to buy AmigaOS or MorphOS, but no one other than a few old and a few thousand of the current Amiga die hards are going to buy a "Special" computer to run it on.  No Chance!

AmigaGuy

**Special Computer:  This is what the millions of Windows user would consider the PEG or A1 boards.  Just some sort expensive hardware that won't also run their Windows OS.
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Offline downix

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #78 on: August 12, 2003, 04:02:51 AM »
@amigaguy

x86 is a failed route, you'd be killed due to competition from all fronts.  On PowerPC you can control the hardware better.  You can limit your competition.  Plus, PPC is cheaper than x86, and the new 970 is faster than x86 too.
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Offline ottomobiehl

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #79 on: August 12, 2003, 04:06:25 AM »
Quote
The more I read about things like this, the more I want to leave the amiga community and stop doing anything with and for amiga.


If all of this bickering is making long time Amiga users consider leaving the scene then think how someone who is new, and wants to get (back) into the Amiga scene feels.  This bickering is not healthy for the community as a whole, and in the end will probably end up tearing it apart. :-(

All I want is an alternative to Microsoft that feels Amiga like and to play some classic games.  If it is AOS then I'll buy it, if it is MOS then I'll buy, if it is AROS then I'll buy it.

What I WON'T do is set up my little defence in the MOS or AOS camp and fling arrows at the other. :-x   There are far juicier (non-Amiga related) targets for that. :-D

As far as the editorial that Targhan put up.  I welcome them.  I read it, formed my own opinion and got by with out having to inform everyone else what my opinion was. :-)  Forums are a great place for debate and exchanging ideas.  A lot of these comments are neither.

Besides a true debate is like a good sports game.  There are winners and losers but more importantly the loser isn't afraid to say congrats and the winner isn't afraid to say great game, I enjoyed it.

 

Offline KennyR

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #80 on: August 12, 2003, 04:10:57 AM »
Quote
First of all noone demanded anything, they guy said in the newsletter itself it is his opiinion.


And it is his opinion I am criticising, not his right to it. He seems to think that AmiWest is a place only for his own chosen Amiga solution, just because some company owns a name. That's like someone buying the word "France" and demanding that only people he/she allows to be called French are allowed to go to France!

Quote
Then heck why shouldn't they? If Genesi posted that as an opinion why not?It's would be their opinion. Many people have posted worse things and they didn't got deteted.


They should have been deleted. It's a public forum for discussion, not for trolling. As an extreme example, it would someone's opinion to be racist. It wouldn't stay on any good forum, and with good reason, but they would have the right to have this opinion and express it. Just not here.
 

Offline AmigaHeretic

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #81 on: August 12, 2003, 04:11:30 AM »
@Targhan

I feel it is in it's appropriate section now in the new Editorial area that has been made.   :-D  

I know you never said it was I who attacked MorphOS's existance I just wanted you to know that I feel "it is" appropriate for MorphOS to be at Amiga shows and that wasn't the reason I felt that this didn't belong in the announcment section.

I think it will be great when AmigaOS is out and both MorphOS and AOS are at the same shows.  Then people will be finally be able to compare the two and make a decision on which they prefer.  :-D

I just want the one that seems the most Amiga like to me, stable, has good apps, and is price competitive.  If it happens to have the Amiga label with it great, if it's got some other label on it then that's great too!

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Offline Seehund

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #82 on: August 12, 2003, 04:11:46 AM »
Quote
There's plenty of room for growth.


Exactly.

Quote

Instead, I focused on "what would sell MorphOS to other people?"  ...  appealing to a broader base, to expand our community beyond it's niche.


If only another company could get that through its evicted head. :)

Or rather ask the question "what would sell [my product] to more people?", i.e. attracting both old and new customers.
[color=0000FF]Maybe it\\\'s still possible to [/color]save AmigaOS [color=0000FF][/size][/color]  :rtfm:......
 

Offline downix

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #83 on: August 12, 2003, 04:12:21 AM »
Right now we need this little infighting, to get us tough enough to handle Microsoft.  It's like inner-team rivalries, or how martial artist dojo's often times have 2 hot-shots that always are butting heads.  Only through the interior conflict can either one emerge strong enough to beat Microsoft.
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Offline greenboy

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #84 on: August 12, 2003, 04:15:43 AM »
Quote
Lando : Actually TBH I don't give a damn if I'm considered an Amiga user or not any more. Truth is my Pegasos and MorphOS is better, faster and more stable than any of my Amigas ever were.

Lando, I don't feel sometimes that I'm particularly an "amigan" anymore either - partly because I see what that has come to mean in forums - partly because I've got a Pegasos that allows me to use better, cheaper, and easier-to-replace hardware from a larger marketplace. When I do feel like an "Amigan" it is because I am ignoring the baggage the moniker has taken on, and I am just playing with some time-honored Amiga software, running incidentally by grace of MorphOS, and this comfortably familiar software still puts me into a mode that I still enjoy immensely...

Quote
You don't want Genesi suppporting Amiga shows? Fine, but don't be surprised if there aren't any shows at all.

On a related note, the lead people / show organizers of SACC were very glad to have Genesi at AmiWest and spoke earnestly of this several times. They liked the fact that Genesi (1) bought an awful lot of booth space - which financially is greatly needed for these shows to continue, (2) helped the show climb out of its increasingly sad "flea market" ambiance by having new things to show on new machines, (3) made it possible to have more activity and energy and forward momentum at the show, sparking some friendly competition and also sharing with other merchants and displayers a reborne sense of hope.

Quote
In my opinion Genesi are better off attending large mainstream shows like CES, ECTS than these little amateur get-togethers. They're worth more than this.

In the grand scheme of things, indeed they are, and this has been discussed by Genesi and in Phoenix. But given the seemingly cooperative vibe at the show between supposedly opposing forces, the remarks from many attendees and participants indicated that there is a benefit to participating in some of these shows, and both "camps" may indeed feel it.

Only after the show did I begin to slip back toward doubt about shows that were once my heritage, as I saw forums heat up with anti invectives and fightin' and fuddin' ... I had to remind myself that at the show the vibe was generally positive and enjoyably friendly, and that it was worth all the hassles to participate in what has been a common past for both people of Genesi, and people not of Genesi.

In fact there were a lot of nice people there, and lots of fun "looking back" things to talk about that made the common background althogether obvious. That this is not always reflected on forums doesn't negate the value of meeting the people at shows and sharing experiences and fun. That software for either platform may benefit from sales on the other platform doesn't really cost developers much at all in terms of marketing or porting strategies, and a little development competition could actually drive updates and improvements users might otherwise not see (well, I am trying to be optimistic here).

Mr Webb evidently just didn't get it; doesn't get it. His loss, nobody else's... Again, the president and other officers from SACC were incredibly supportive and enthusiastic about the presence of Genesi and Phoenix. They very much want us back for future shows! So. Any punditeer floundering in malaise will not likely taint future endeavors such as Amiwest in the least. That, I think, is how to swim forward.
<-- greenboy ---<<<<
 

Offline AmigaHeretic

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #85 on: August 12, 2003, 04:30:32 AM »
@downix

A failed route?  I don't understand?  Millions of x86 computers sell every month (day?).   How many Peg or A1 machines sell a month?

X86 isn't going anywhere for long time.

"PPC is cheaper than x86, and the new 970 is faster than x86 too"

That is a pretty bold statement and I'd like to know why you believe that PPC is cheaper.  I have never seen a PPC computer that is close the price/power of an x86 machine.  Certainly not the Peg or A1 boards.

2 days ago I built a computer for a friend and we got an Athlon 1800+ cpu (in box w/ fan) an ATX MB with 6 USB2 ports, ethernet, AC97 sound, agp 8x slot, 5 pci slots, DDR slots, ATA 133, and all the other standard stuff for $59.00 US.  

PPC may be technologically better, but that won't help you sell an OS to more then just a few tech heads.

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Offline gary_c

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #86 on: August 12, 2003, 04:33:02 AM »
amigaguy wrote:
.
Quote
People might fork out $99 to buy AmigaOS or MorphOS, but no one other than a few old and a few thousand of the current Amiga die hards are going to buy a "Special" computer to run it on. No Chance!

**Special Computer: This is what the millions of Windows user would consider the PEG or A1 boards. Just some sort expensive hardware that won't also run their Windows OS.


The typical Windows user is not the target market for either Amiga or Genesi, at least not at this stage of the game. There is no way either of these platforms can offer a product satisfying to general Joe and Jane Sixpack types. These are geek products, pure and simple, and will be for the foreseeable future. But that isn't so bad. There are many people buying geek products these days. By staking out some territory on the fringe, Genesi, for example, can define its own standards. Of course, if, like downix says, the PPC 970 can be brought to market and be cost competitive and some applications made to take advantage of the speed, then the killer platform potential is raised dramatically. No longer just a geek toy, we're looking at competitive tool here. :-)

downix wrote:
Quote
x86 is a failed route, you'd be killed due to competition from all fronts

I'm not so sure about that. Imagine this scenario: some whizbang operating system runs on x86, outperforms Windows, is more userfriendly than Linux, maybe can run Windows apps in a runtime environment, is cool enough for geeks and useful enough for mainstreamers. Driver support might not be too broad, but the company could be clear about what's supported. If performance is superior enough, maybe more hardware support would come from companies seeing more sales potential. This'd be a killer product IMHO. Would it be targetted by MS? Probably, but this isn't necessarily instant death. Even if the new OS didn't get a lot of OEM deals due to (now recognized) MS heavyhandedness, there'd be lots of aftermarket and barebones installations, probably factors of ten more than any new PPC product.

Just some ideas.  :-)

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Offline Targhan

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #87 on: August 12, 2003, 04:37:37 AM »
Regards,
Targhan
 

Offline downix

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #88 on: August 12, 2003, 04:39:45 AM »
@amigaguy

Alright, let's hit these point by points:

1)  x86 sales have slowed down since 99, to the point that the whole industry is in threat of collapse.  The razor-thin margins necessary to compete in x86 are driving most businesses under.  Actually, at current sales rates, not even 1 million sell per month.

2) I can get PPC's for as cheap as $8 a chip.  Please, find me the $8 x86 chip, and will it compete with a 200Mhz 603e?  Sure, this is not in a desktop, but there is a larger world than just the desktop out there, a world that is closed off if you go x86.

3)  Find me the x86 based handheld.  Find me the x86 based satelite TV decoder.  You won't find them, because x86 fails here.  You will find PPC, and lots of them.  Millions of PPC machines *do* sell per month.  Apple is a sliver of the market.

Sure, the Peg is more than an Athlon, but by the same note, it also offers more than said Athlon.  (Find me a microATX motherboard with the same features for under $280 brand-new, and that's not counting the CPU in it's case, while the $299 Pegasos price does include the processor)  And the Peg does it without producing the huge volumes of heat that the Athlon does.

x86 is not the end-all-be-all range, it's hot, it's power hungry, and it's noisy (due to the fans).  Since switching to the Pegasos, I've found my electric bills dropping by $10 or more a month.  Imagine a Fortune 500 firm, swapping out 10k workstations for a Pegasos.  That's $100k savings for nothing other than swapping a motherboard.  Over a year, you've more than made up the difference in cost.
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Offline GadgetMaster

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Re: AmigaUpdate, Objectivity Lost.
« Reply #89 from previous page: August 12, 2003, 04:51:55 AM »
Quote
Right now we need this little infighting, to get us tough enough to handle Microsoft. It's like inner-team rivalries, or how martial artist dojo's often times have 2 hot-shots that always are butting heads. Only through the interior conflict can either one emerge strong enough to beat Microsoft.


I disagree

If we ever have a chance to survive it will be in the form of a niche market.

Even this is unacheivable if we keep fighting between ourselves.

Cooperation and unity might give us half a chance to survive.

As for beating Microsoft....A very distant dream at this stage i'm afraid.

They just have too much money and the majority of the market. No real changes in sight for some time to come. :-(