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Offline bloodline

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #329 on: June 05, 2009, 12:29:54 AM »
Quote from: amigaksi;509236
>No, if you write an app that uses standard OCS hardware (let's say an old A500) or even uses the kernel functions that's in no way a guarantee in itself that it will work on other Amiga systems.

Bullcrap.  AGA is backward compatible with OCS/ECS as per spec.

You have never programmed an Amiga then... AGA was not that compatible with OCS/ECS... the chipset even contained a compatibility mode that could be switched on during the early boot sequence to degrade the chipset features to the older spec.


I have tried to follow your weird Joystick argument... I can't think of a single game that I or anyone else has ever written on the Amiga that checked the Joystick status more than once a frame... if it did then any related animation would be jumpy, since there would missing frames...

You can read any register on any system as fast as the busses will allow... but if you can read the port faster than you need to, and you do read it faster than you need to, you are just wasting bandwidth.... with the Amiga there is precious little bandwidth, wasting it all trying to read the joystick one thousand times a second would just steal the bus time away from the audio and gfx circuits that do need to read memory and registers that quickly.
If you want to sample something at a stupidly high rate there are plenty of available options on the PC... I use an FA-101 Firewire box to sample 10 channels of 32bits at 192Khz... that can be processed in realtime... that sort of pisses on your weird little 1khz joystick port...
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 12:47:50 AM by bloodline »
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #330 on: June 05, 2009, 12:32:08 AM »
Denise chip handles digital joystick. 3.57MHz 290ns time period. Documentation shows 16bit value for each joy port state. Is there an internal latch? Documentation i've read says something to the effect of data shifted into this 16bit register one bit at a time on leading edge of clock. Then wouldn't it mean that it takes 2.3us to update the status of a joyports state? Paula handling analog joystick reads ADC once per video frame. Any hardware gurus out there know if i got this right?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 12:37:27 AM by koaftder »
 

Offline Linde

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #331 on: June 05, 2009, 12:45:29 AM »
Quote from: smerf;509263
Hi,

@everyone,

How many PC techs, or IT techs work for microsoft?
How many PC techs, or IT techs work for Linux?
How many PC techs, or IT techs work for Amiga?

Amiga has the least techs working for them, this means they have the most stable system that just works.

Amiga wins

PC and Linux users lose because they need professional help to keep their systems going.

Sounds Logical to me

smerf

lol
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #332 on: June 05, 2009, 12:54:09 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;509278
You have never programmed an Amiga then... AGA was not that compatible with OCS/ECS... the chipset even contained a compatibility mode that could be switched on during the early boot sequence to degrade the chipset features to the older spec.


I have tried to follow your weird Joystick argument... I can't think of a single game that I or anyone else has ever written on the Amiga that checked the Joystick status more than once a frame... if it did then any related animation would be jumpy, since there would missing frames...

You can read any register on any system as fast as the busses will allow... but if you can read the port faster than you need to, and you do read it faster than you need to, you are just wasting bandwidth.... with the Amiga there is precious little bandwidth, wasting it all trying to read the joystick one thousand times a second would just steal the bus time away from the audio and gfx circuits that do need to read memory and registers that quickly.
If you want to sample something at a stupidly high rate there are plenty of available options on the PC... I use an FA-101 Firewire box to sample 10 channels of 32bits at 192Khz... that can be processed in realtime... that sort of pisses on your weird little 1khz joystick port...

spec sheet says 6 24bit channels in at 192KHz.
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #333 on: June 05, 2009, 12:58:20 AM »
Quote from: koaftder;509285
spec sheet says 6 24bit channels in at 192KHz.


you're quite right, it's only 96khz with 10 channels :lol:

Offline koaftder

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #334 on: June 05, 2009, 01:00:35 AM »
Quote from: bloodline;509287
you're quite right, it's only 96khz with 10 channels :lol:

I'm afraid our friend is going to have to conclude that because of this, the Amiga blows your pc and it's fancy firewire bus out of the water.
 

Offline AmigaHeretic

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #335 on: June 05, 2009, 02:03:20 AM »
I throw my opine in here I guess....


Amiga is light years behind the PC.  We don't need to go into all the crazy awesome hardware you can get on a PC.


There are something that Windows hasn't caught up to though. (feel free to compare these to Mac/Linux on the same hardware)

-Single directory App installations.  i.e. no Registry.  Windows needs to find a better way to do things.  Windows is a pain the ass to deal with a lot of times when an 'app goes bad' and needs to be repaired.    Now, you can lay some blame on the app developers, but Windows default model is messy.

-OS Windows/System32 file structure is a mess.  Most all virus/spyware you find out there just puts files in /Windows/ or Windows/System32.  You'd think viruses would be easy to remove, but there is so much crap everywhere that literally people make a living just by telling what is suppose to be in System32 and what isn't.

-There still some Amiga GUI type things Windows lacks.  Such as window focus.  In Windows as soon as you click a Window it is forced to the front.  Would like to at least have more control or things like that, ala double 'click to front'.

-Boot times.  Yeah, sore subject these days I guess.  But seriously it a sad joke.  I leave my computer on 24/7 because it's a SO slow to startup.  Sometimes if the OS becomes a little flaky I just leave until a point I am doing something else so I can restart it as shut down & boot up is even more of a joke.  

SATA2 is rated a 6gb/sec- computers have tons ram - multi cores and multi GHZ, there is no excuse for it.  The "well" Windows has your ethernet are ready to go by the time the Start button appears at least, that argument just doesn't cut it anymore.

My computer is an appliance to me.  I don't leave my TV on 24/7 because it's a pain in the ass to wait for it to turn on.  If my light bulbs took so long to turn on I'd leave my lights on all the time too.  


Anyway, it's hard to just say, blanket statement, that todays OSes are flawed, but there is room today for a "fast" single user OS, where I can copy a program by moving a folder, or delete a program for that matter by dragging the folder to the trash.


Anyway....
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #336 on: June 05, 2009, 06:24:42 AM »
Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
The same entity that appointed you the saviour of the Amiga.

PFFFT.


Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
You wan't to know about the real world. In the real world people use PCs and MAC. The Amiga need a hell of a lot of catching up to do before it can even be taken as a serious platform at all. How much more real do you want it? Learn to accept reality my friend. :)


No shit Sherlock.  Can you READ? What does: "3. PC =x86 hardware running Windows for anywhere between 90 and 95% of the worlds computers." mean to you?
Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

There was no question. Just an unqualified statement. Read the title again.

I see, so its now a question of grammar.  Maybe we could add a full stop at the end followed by the word "Discuss."

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
It's only zealotry that has led you to conflate this issue into an unrecognisable mess and introduce criteria and questions where there were none.

translation: " couldn't be arsed reading and understanding all of the posts in the thread nor think beyond the obvious"

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
It seem you still can't make the simple distinction between hardware and software. :roflmao:

PC hardware without software does nothing.  Its pointless separating the two.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
Aww. :( Why only one? Knock yourself out we're all listening intently. Don't say you are running out of steam already? Oh yes your health. OK step back then.

Because it only takes ONE to show the PC is still playing catchup.  But WAIT.  There was MORE..

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

Back to software are we? The company I work for needs to exchange MS Office ducuments and run a decent web browser as a bare minimum.


YOU might.  The user examples I gave don't, some people who need to quickly sample a music riff in the middle of the night just need a fast booting A1200.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

I'm sorry sttuffing a load of hobby home computers in our offices is not goung to make us more productive.

We run LAMP servers and can even use basic specced machines for that. Unfortunately a stock AMIGA 1200 just wont cut the mustard there. (You are the one that wants to stick to basics and not use "souped up machines" so you at least use your own criteria in this one.)


And I bet you can't do gene sequencing/process nuclear physics data/analyse climate models as fast as Big Blue with your XP network either.  Whats your point?

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

So you are writing a 10000 word proposal and you hit the off button you won't lose any data on an Amiga? Wow! That's amazing! The business world should really be told about this breakthrough. I don't think you are evangelising it enough. :eek:


1. Never had to write 10,000 words of anything.  2. Even a cardigan-wearing gronk would know to SAVE his file before he switches off his computer.  3.  how would the same data not be lost on the PC if you don't save it first?

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
Come on. You are clutching at straws here. Not having to shutdown safely is hardly a feature that is going to affect our servers which haven't been shut down for years. We don't miss it one bit.

Never said anything about not having shutdown safely being anything to YOUR f'en servers. The point about safely switching off was to counter a previous argument that Amiga can corrupt your drive if you shut down mid-write, but if you could be arsed reading the thread, you'd know this. Being able to flick a switch and shutdown instantly means people can leave their PC straight away, instead of coming home to find their PC has been in shutdown mode for 8 hours due to some silly  process that has blocked the shut down,  but they couldn't wait to be around the PC to see it shutdown.


You're work in a server-client environment.  Many people at home don't, many people shut down their PC's daily, to them it matters..Its a feature that many PC user would be glad to have, but no YOU might not care, but so what, it DOESN"T CHANGE THE FACT THAT PC's STILL CAN"T DO IT.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

Sure not being able to serve DHTML web pages at all is a bit too secure to be useful at all.

I'm sure i couldn't give a toss about serving DHTML on an A1200

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
Good luck to them. Those examples hardly put PCs to shame.

VERY good luck to them: it cost them a few hundred dollars and no tech support costs.  An equivalent PC set up would cost many $1000's for the dentist, and tens of thousands for the aged-care facility to achieve the same.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
I can do more than that on my mobile phone.

Really?  you can run a public touch screen /multi screen display from your phone?  Which phone?  which software? which screens?

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
The Amiga needs billions of dollars of investment to be a serious contender and catch up with to the established platforms.

And this is relevant because......?
Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

But it runs the majority of the worlds website including all major Amiga websites. (This one included) so it has it's uses and is far more advanced as a platform than the limited Amiga.

Just because I don't like linux doesnt mean I will deny it's capabilities and usefulness.

i highlighted linux's hardware recognition/configuration issues which simply don't exist to anywhere near the same degree with classic Amiga. That's all thats is needed in the context fo the discussion.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

Funny I had similar problems trying to get one of my A1200s up to scratch.

provided you installed from original operating system disks then you had defective ie broken hardware.  


 
Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

Send me a ticket please. Cloud cuckoo land sounds like quite an inviting place.

i think you boarded the plane a long time ago..
 
Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

My current user experience with PCs is fine. It's better and more productive for me than trying to force an ancient (but elegant) Amiga system to try and do it for me.

I don't need to catch up with anything.

good for you.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

(1) Oh crap my TV boots up instantly. tell the PC using world that they need to catch up :eek:

It makes no frigging difference in the Real World. It's how useful it is after boot up that matters to most sane peopl


It matters to Microsoft who are highlighting Win 7's improved boot and shut down times, it matters to the many reviewers of Win 7 who highlight this as well. Ask a PC user: would you like to boot in 5 seconds and shutdown with the flick of a switch?

So your argument is:  yeah Amiga's boot faster, but i run from a server, I never shut down, i can do more than an Amiga so i don't care.  Good for you.  But none of that makes  your PC boot any faster.  And admit it you'd really like a PC that boots in 5 seconds and shuts down instantly, wouldn't you?  And admit it your pC can't do this.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

(2) Security through obscurity eh?  Sh!t !!! I think we need to make all PCs obscure to CATCH UP with the Amiga. :eek:

Since when has obscurity been a sought after feature? :crazy:


CRAZY but thats REALITY:  I can get on the net, open all sorts of malicous email with ZERO anti-malware software and it has NO EFFECT on my Amiga.  Your PC can't. How, why- is irrelevant.  ITS THE REALITY.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

(3) I'm sorry to say that the PCs I use daily are a heck of a lot more responsive and useful to me than my A1200 could ever be. I could use an Amiga to do some of my tasks but I'd probably get fired for taking hours too long on tasks that should really be completed in minutes.

On my A1200, i get far less wait-cursers, and when i click on a mouse button i always get an instant response, and when i move my mouse the pointer always moves with it.  That doesn't always happen with my PC.
Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181

Look! a tool is a tool alright.

Agreed.  And sometimes my Amiga is still the better tool for some jobs that I-and others- want to do.

Quote from: GadgetMaster;509181
What I don't do is lie to myself that they are the worlds answer to poverty as well as the kitchen sink.

Well NOW your plane to LaLaLand has landed on the tarmac..
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 06:27:37 AM by stefcep2 »
 

Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #337 on: June 05, 2009, 06:33:16 AM »
Quote from: AmigaHeretic;509298
I throw my opine in here I guess....


Amiga is light years behind the PC.  We don't need to go into all the crazy awesome hardware you can get on a PC.


There are something that Windows hasn't caught up to though. (feel free to compare these to Mac/Linux on the same hardware)

-Single directory App installations.  i.e. no Registry.  Windows needs to find a better way to do things.  Windows is a pain the ass to deal with a lot of times when an 'app goes bad' and needs to be repaired.    Now, you can lay some blame on the app developers, but Windows default model is messy.

-OS Windows/System32 file structure is a mess.  Most all virus/spyware you find out there just puts files in /Windows/ or Windows/System32.  You'd think viruses would be easy to remove, but there is so much crap everywhere that literally people make a living just by telling what is suppose to be in System32 and what isn't.

-There still some Amiga GUI type things Windows lacks.  Such as window focus.  In Windows as soon as you click a Window it is forced to the front.  Would like to at least have more control or things like that, ala double 'click to front'.

-Boot times.  Yeah, sore subject these days I guess.  But seriously it a sad joke.  I leave my computer on 24/7 because it's a SO slow to startup.  Sometimes if the OS becomes a little flaky I just leave until a point I am doing something else so I can restart it as shut down & boot up is even more of a joke.  

SATA2 is rated a 6gb/sec- computers have tons ram - multi cores and multi GHZ, there is no excuse for it.  The "well" Windows has your ethernet are ready to go by the time the Start button appears at least, that argument just doesn't cut it anymore.

My computer is an appliance to me.  I don't leave my TV on 24/7 because it's a pain in the ass to wait for it to turn on.  If my light bulbs took so long to turn on I'd leave my lights on all the time too.  


Anyway, it's hard to just say, blanket statement, that todays OSes are flawed, but there is room today for a "fast" single user OS, where I can copy a program by moving a folder, or delete a program for that matter by dragging the folder to the trash.


Anyway....


Well said. Especially the boot times: it IS a joke on the PC, any PC.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #338 on: June 05, 2009, 07:58:50 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;509323
Well said. Especially the boot times: it IS a joke on the PC, any PC.

My 800MHz G4 A1XE takes around half the time of my A1200T to boot. It has 32x the CPU speed, 5x the bus speed, 10x the sustainable hard disk transfer rate, yada etc.

It's running AmigaOS so on that hardware, surely it should boot in a flat second. Dear me, whatever could be wrong with it?

Boot times are not a metric for computer performance. Boot times are dominated by waiting, be it waiting for initialisation of hardware, software, synchronisation between processes or a myriad of other things. The more processes that are started, the more conflated this becomes.

All computers wait at exactly the same speed. Even a factor of a million CPU clockspeed difference cannot make a half second device initialisation go any faster. a 4GHz CPU cannot negotiate an IP address with your router any quicker than the router wants to talk to it.

The only valid indication of performance of a system is once it has booted up, not how long it takes to get there. My A1200* has a longish from cold boot time for an Amiga classic, but once up, it's pretty quick and capable, much moreso than a 7 second boot-from-cold bare OS3.1 install.

*FYI an accelerator card and graphics card as the sole internal expansion cards in a system do not make it a Frankenstein machine.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2009, 08:03:13 AM by Karlos »
int p; // A
 

Offline paolone

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #339 on: June 05, 2009, 08:02:17 AM »
Quote from: stefcep2;509322
(about instant shutdown tuening off the machine)

You're work in a server-client environment.  Many people at home don't, many people shut down their PC's daily, to them it matters..Its a feature that many PC user would be glad to have, but no YOU might not care, but so what, it DOESN"T CHANGE THE FACT THAT PC's STILL CAN"T DO IT.

Oh, really? That's exactly what I do to turn off my Icaros Destkop machine: i press the button and the PC is off. Immediately.

But don't think it's the safest feature on earth: if you turn off your computer while it's writing to disk, it doesn't matter if you're using AmigaOS, Windows, AROS or MacOS X, you'll kill the accessed file and you can also ruin the whole filesystem, with a random degree of pain. A shutdown procedure is not simply a bloated pointless loose of time, but a safer way to close operations and leave everything in a good shape.
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Offline DonnyEMU

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #340 on: June 05, 2009, 08:29:25 AM »
I can't wait until Project Natal hits the PC environment not just the x-box. Things like minority report's interface will be available with your built in laptop webcam.. Not that I heard it's happening but it makes sense that it would be..

As far as turning PCs off I never do it. Most hardware folks tell you not to, as it shocks the power supplies. It's better to hibernate or SLEEP. And I haven't lost a file to this or any context or blue screeen since Windows XP which I stopped using around 2004-2005.. I like UBUNTU it's low memory and hardware requirements make it a nice second virtual machine to have around too..
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #341 on: June 05, 2009, 08:31:35 AM »
Quote from: paolone;509331
Oh, really? That's exactly what I do to turn off my Icaros Destkop machine: i press the button and the PC is off. Immediately.


Ok i stand corrected.  Approximately 1 in 1 billion PC's in operation can do this...

Quote from: paolone;509331

But don't think it's the safest feature on earth: if you turn off your computer while it's writing to disk, it doesn't matter if you're using AmigaOS, Windows, AROS or MacOS X, you'll kill the accessed file and you can also ruin the whole filesystem, with a random degree of pain. A shutdown procedure is not simply a bloated pointless loose of time, but a safer way to close operations and leave everything in a good shape.


I know why PC's shutdown, but thats why on Amiga I said you SHOULD wait that second or so for the hard drive light to go off after you have saved. But with Windows and Linux PC's are very frequently reading and writing to the hard drive eg swap file-even with 4 gig ram, so you can't really wait for the hard drive light to go off, well because its going on and off all the time, whether you're saving or not.

BTW does anyone know WHY Windows and linux need a swapfile even if they use so little available RAM?  I know you can force the swap file size to zero in Windows, but I suspect it still uses a swap file.  And AFAIK Linux won't install without a swap file partition.
 

Offline DonnyEMU

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #342 on: June 05, 2009, 08:44:57 AM »
Probably what they are calling GPU acceleration is PIXEL SHADER technology that's actually being done through software emulation thru the CPU not the real GPU.. I'd call Adobe about this and ask them exactly what it means..

"Of course, none of this explains why Photoshop CS4 64-bit has such a hard time moving the cursor when GPU acceleration is enabled. WTF? ;-) Something silly on my end, I'm sure.

EDIT: Just to be clear: "real-time" does not mean instantaneous.[/QUOTE]"
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Offline stefcep2

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #343 on: June 05, 2009, 08:45:18 AM »
Quote from: Karlos;509329


*FYI an accelerator card and graphics card as the sole internal expansion cards in a system do not make it a Frankenstein machine.


Duly noted.  Even though you have transplanted an additional foreign brain from a totally different species and likewise a foreign display system, all communicating with the original carcass over transplanted foreign busses.

Having both a PPC and 68k, would describing at as having a multiple-personality disorder be more appropriate? That might explain why it slows down every now and then: the two CPU's are fighting over who will be the dominant personality.
 

Offline Daedalus

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Re: PC still playing Amiga catchup
« Reply #344 from previous page: June 05, 2009, 08:55:35 AM »
@DonnyEMU
Well, I've no delusions about the many weaknesses of the Amiga, but to be honest, I do like the fact that I can boot it up, do a quick Google and shut it down again before my Windows system has become responsive. That's a positive asset for me, in a real situation. Don't get me wrong, the PC is probably used more than the Amiga in my world, but it takes so long for the PC to boot that I don't really use it for looking up something quickly. Hell, fiddling about on my phone's browser is usually faster, and I don't have to go upstairs ;)

I don't like having computers turned on all the time; they generate heat and use electricity. And those hardware guys should have been able to tell you, that hibernating a computer is pretty much the same as a full shut down/start up as far as the PSU and hard drives are concerned. Sleeping might be a little less harsh on the PSU, but I'd be far more worried about the starting/stopping of the mechanical hard drives. And that's the same whether you sleep or shut down a system.
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