Steve Jobs: G4 is slower than Intel CPUs

[Thematic]

@jetfiredx:

AROS is and should be separate from AmigaOS, shouldn't you be content that there are so many alternatives? There are many benefits to both approaches, which I won't go into now, but I happen to put more emphasis on the PPC side of things.

[Hammer]

Karlos wrote:
Slower or not, lets just see OS4 and MOS running on 933MHz G4 systems and sit them side by side with XP or 2003 on the fastest x86 you can find...

Obviously for processor intensive work there's no contest but I've seen my OS3.5 on my 040 be more responsive than my friends AlthonXP 2800 many occasions :-)

Overall (WindowsXP/2003) speed is dependant on surrounding installed components i.e.
1. The amount of installed ram (important for XP/2k3).
2. Installed video card (and drivers).
3. Motherboard chipset.
4. Windows’s available free physical memory.
5. Boot'vis application.
6. the type of hard disk installed.

I run, Athlon XP @ 2.2Ghz/Geforce 4600 TI/nForce II 400 Ultra/1Gb PC3200 DDR SDRAM (dual channel)/2x 80Gb 7200RPM UDMA IDE RAID (boot drive). It’s faster than my old A3000/040@25Mhz (no gfx card).
Such a hardware setup should fly with AROS i.e. PC world’s brute force method with near Amiga like OS efficiencies.

With ‘1Gb PC3200 DDR SDRAM’, it reduces the WindowXP’s use of the slower virtual memory. RAID IDE setup accelerates disk access.

PS; I do have lesser AthlonXP/512Mb/VIA KT class machine…

[the_leander]

Slower or not, lets just see OS4 and MOS running on 933MHz G4 systems and sit them side by side with XP or 2003 on the fastest x86 you can find...

And then someone comes along and throws BeOS into the mix and all of a sudden the x86 looks utterly renewed.. Windows is utterly pathetic as far as platforms go, slow, bloated and everything else. You put a lightwieght OS onto x86 hardware and watch it fly. Hell, even linux can utterly outperform Win2k3 on the same system doing the same sorts of jobs (UT in morphix is in order of magnitude faster than on Win2k).

Obviously for processor intensive work there's no contest but I've seen my OS3.5 on my 040 be more responsive than my friends AlthonXP 2800 many occasions

As have I, I have not however been able to say the same regarding BSD, linux or BeOS.

[AmigaMac]

JetfireDX,

My comment:

"You're short-sighted reasoning above almost contradicts what Amigans have been fighting for all this time."


Had nothing to do with PPC versus x86.  It had to do with the very fact that Amiga (as a whole) is a viable solution.

As for your comments:

I could care less what Amiga Inc. puts inside the case.  If they offer both PPC and x86, then we all win as consumers.  I'll have the choice of PPC, while you have the choice of x86.

Diversity and choice is key :-D

[DonnyEMU]

I whole heartedly have to agree diversity and choice is the key.  The Amiga's merits (and it's children/variants) have always come from it's unique features.

However points should be made and folks I own Macs, PCs, and Amigas..  Hell I even have ran AROS on x86 from time to time..

Everyone knows that MacOS X is really a flavor of Unix underneath just like Linux is a flavor of unix, and runs on different cpus..

The truth of the matter is the Amiga is not unique anymore for it's multi-tasking, graphics, etc. Through Linux, OS X, and yes even Windows XP, the world now has multi-tasking operating systems and great graphics.

There is nothing special now about the Amiga except it's unique library of software (most of which you can't get anymore unless you are pirating software from company's that aren't around anymore)..

The Amiga was my 4th computer ever, however it was the one I most loved, it brought me into the world of painting, animation, and later desktop video production. I will always love it for what it is. I just think it was a great idea, that has been very copied by everyone and I love the OS for what it is.

Who cares if the G4 is slower than intel machines (Apple doesn't seem to care) because the Mac platform is more than the sum of it's parts, and to that effect so is the Amiga.

The Amiga community is full of very astute smart people who are very supportive and friendly.  The community is the best thing the Amiga has going for it.

[ACE]

@DonnyEMU

You nearly brought a tear to my eye there!

I completely agree the community of Amiga is the best thing we can offer.  (Along with some games/utilities that haven't been surpass anywhere else (IMHO) I'm thinking Speedball 2, SWOS, DPaint/PPaint, etc. etc. etc.)

That is why I'm worried about the way the community is being (potentially) fractured by all this MOS is this and AOS is that.  While I know competition could drive prices down and performance up we need to survive the early stages.  Can't we all get together and think about the good old times, and then imagine what it will be like when the terrible two's are over!

What I don't neccessarily agree with is the diversity issue (look at consoles for example) ...yes, they are slightly limited towards the end of there lifecycle, but you know you have a platform which will (hopefully) be supported for a set period of time.  Why not release a standard minimum spec every six months/a year, that way the consumer knows that they are buying a '03 class computer and the '04 will be released in april (and they can upgrade then, i.e. buy a new M/B or CPU or GFX Card whatever).  It also means developers know exactly what spec. systems are (again look at what consoles/classic Amigas can achieve when the developer knows the exact limitations of their system)

{Edit: Just realised that maybe you were talking about diversity between WinXP, MacOS, Amiga, etc.  Still my above point still stands just doesn't necessarily apply! ;-)}

Anyway that's my grand idea.

[Druideck]

In the beginning, windows sucked, it still does.
                                amiga was great, it is still great.

Amiga is great because of how it works and feels.

Now we have MOS/PEG on G3-600, about 10
times the speed of 060 units and it kicks windows
ass for feel of speed and smoothness.

Some people are still using old amigas and are
getting along on them.

If people believe whats available for amiga users is
sad, why not go buy a mac hog G5 or intel power
horse and be happy?

People want new Amiga experiences because
it is a superior experience and other computers
are lame, admit it.  Thats why your here.  :-D

[Karlos]

Hammer wrote:

Karlos wrote:
Slower or not, lets just see OS4 and MOS running on 933MHz G4 systems and sit them side by side with XP or 2003 on the fastest x86 you can find...

Obviously for processor intensive work there's no contest but I've seen my OS3.5 on my 040 be more responsive than my friends AlthonXP 2800 many occasions :-)

Overall (WindowsXP/2003) speed is dependant on surrounding installed components i.e.
1. The amount of installed ram (important for XP/2k3).
2. Installed video card (and drivers).
3. Motherboard chipset.
4. Windows’s available free physical memory.
5. Boot'vis application.
6. the type of hard disk installed.

I run, Athlon XP @ 2.2Ghz/Geforce 4600 TI/nForce II 400 Ultra/1Gb PC3200 DDR SDRAM (dual channel)/2x 80Gb 7200RPM UDMA IDE RAID (boot drive). It’s faster than my old A3000/040@25Mhz (no gfx card).
Such a hardware setup should fly with AROS i.e. PC world’s brute force method with near Amiga like OS efficiencies.

With ‘1Gb PC3200 DDR SDRAM’, it reduces the WindowXP’s use of the slower virtual memory. RAID IDE setup accelerates disk access.

So you need all that hardware acceleration to make your windows box snappier than an 040 powered no-graphics-card amiga 3000 eh?

My point was, a friend has a 'half decent' AthlonXP 2800 400MHz FSB, Asus A7V8X-X mobo, 768M DDR400, 128M Radeon 9800 and ATA133 120G drive. It's a nice setup.

However, running Win2K, XP or 2003 (uninstalled after virtually nothing worked :lol: ) there were times when simply bringing up a popup menu caused a delay of a couple of seconds. For the power and acceleration available I'd expect a lot better.

My 64M BlizzPPC 040 with BVision gfx card, a combination with a tiny fraction of the raw hardware power he has at his disposal never behaves like this, the worst I get is being able to physically notice the draw sometimes ie an area full of icons is noticable when closing a window that had been over them...

This quite nicely demonstrates that even with hardware acceleration to crutch it up, windows is just too far gone - I don't care how fast PC hardware gets, youll never feel the benefit in the windows UI (unless they completely re write it from scratch).

If an ageing 68K system with a third rate graphics card (the hardware features of which are totally under utilized by the RTG software as it is) can have a more responsive UI, what does that say for MOS, OS4 and as you point out, AROS?

[Druideck]

@Karlos
Quote:
"I don't care how fast PC hardware gets, youll never feel the benefit in the windows UI (unless they completely re write it from scratch)."

my point exactly, windows is not improving with
all the acclaimed speed increases.
Amiga improves measurably with faster hardware.

[Karlos]

Druideck wrote:
@Karlos
Quote:
Amiga improves measurably with faster hardware.

Amen! The switch from 1200 020@14MHz 2Mb to 040@25MHz with 16Mb fast ram (my first accelerator) was a real eye opener.

Moving to the BlizzPPC later, with the same power 040 was no big deal, although PPC datatypes and PPC optimised apps gave a similar kick. Man, I do regret not saving up more and going for the 060 combo but it was insanely expensive back then (I have the 603e+ 240Mhz with SCSI)...

Getting the graphics card to replace the native chipset was to everyday workbench use what the first 040 I got was to applications...

Conversely, my experience of windows usage is that it itself (not applications in particular) always feels lazy and sluggish no matter what you stick under the bonnet.

[olegil]

Why AmigaOne still use the old slow G4?

If you would rather use your old 68k, noone is forcing you to upgrade. But it IS actually an UPGRADE for Amiga. It's impossible for someone like Amiga/Genesi to expect to be market leaders when it comes to new technology right now. Just won't happen. So either settle for a G4, or buy a PC/Mac. Don't expect a small company to be able to fight Apple etc when it comes to getting the latest chips from people like IBM and Intel.

Note that the AmigaOne was in production by the time the PPC970 was announced...

We shall see what the future brings. For now I'm ok with my 1 1/2 year old 600MHz G3, but I'll upgrade again some time next year. It won't be an Intel, but it might be an Apple. Or an Amiga. Depends on how much trouble the early Apple-adopters have with Linux on the G5 :-)

[Karlos]

This is the bit I don't get. Just because the G4 has been outpaced by x86, some people seem to be complaining and making out like it's crap all of a sudden :roll:

Hell, I wouldn't mind a G4 A1XE as an upgrade :-)

[Hammer]

So you need all that hardware acceleration to make your windows box snappier than an 040 powered no-graphics-card amiga 3000 eh?

I don’t have access to Zorro based Gfx card anymore. The issue in regards to Windows GUI’s speed is an operating issue NOT a hardware issue.
If one is bias for relatively lightweight OS one could purchase QNX X86 (or download AROS, or even install Amithlon).

There are some things that the AmigaOS is unsuited at this time due to lack of ‘middleware’  infrastructure. This area is related to RAD development for revenue/income generation.

My point was, a friend has a 'half decent' AthlonXP 2800 400MHz FSB, Asus A7V8X-X mobo, 768M DDR400, 128M Radeon 9800 and ATA133 120G drive. It's a nice setup.

Ok. The hardware is fine (except for VIA KT600 class motherboard).  Configuration is another matter.….

However, running Win2K, XP or 2003 (uninstalled after virtually nothing worked  ) there were times when simply bringing up a popup menu caused a delay of a couple of seconds. For the power and acceleration available I'd expect a lot better.

I yet to encounter that 'issue' on my system due to different chipset/RAID-HD/memory/Gfx/driver setup (relative to your friend's setup). Secondly, there are the issues of deadlocks** and some issues with certain MS auto up-date patches.

**broken applications/utilities that plug itself in popup menus.

PS; I have set my WinXP-SP1's popup menu with fade-in/fade-out effect.

running Win2K, XP or 2003 (uninstalled after virtually nothing worked  )

MS Windows Server 2003 should have worked with
ASUS A7V8X-X (VIA KT600 based) class motherboard...

If an ageing 68K system with a third rate graphics card (the hardware features of which are totally under utilized by the RTG software as it is) can have a more responsive UI, what does that say for MOS, OS4 and as you point out, AROS?

The issue you pointed out is an operating system issue NOT a hardware issue…

[Wain]

The 80x86 command set  is an old, outdated, and (by modern standards) flawed set.  Intel is trying to replace it with their IA series of processor (slowly, but probably surely while they attempt to pry the backwards compatibility nuts off of the old set with a crobar).

I understand 80x86 is readily and cheaply available, but all it will do is throw the Amiga market into the "every month I need to upgrade "group, which is a place where it will surely be overwhelmed.

I don't care what CPU is used for the AmigaOne as long as it is a modern CPU, with a modern command set, and something that has an architecture that will easily enable moving on to the future whatever that may be (64-bit computing probably).  The G4 is an excellent processor for such usage.  The 80x86 chipsets are being phased out, and being slowly replaced by incompatible CPU's (yes AMD's still planning on true backward compatibility, but even they've mentioned plans to eventually phase it out)

So G4 isn't "brand new top of the line" as of what 4 months ago or something?  It's an excellent CPU, that is going to go down in price due to the new processor line, and puts the AmigaOne on track for relatively painless upgrading.

[iamaboringperson]

I agree with Wain.

Even Intel know that the x86 is soon dead.

I would prefer a platform that is using a modern RISC CPU(the PPC is only 10 years old).

You will either upgrade your computer platform now, or wait 5-10 years when Intel and AMD say "Nope! That's enough! We're going on with another architecture.

If you're worrying about these machines not using the old x86 hardware then you're not thinking about the long term future enough.

[DonnyEMU]

Okay well I agree with a lot of what is being said here all except the stuff when people start trashing windows. I have had my share of problems with windows over the years, but I have never had as many problems or hardware incompatibilities as the folks here have. It amazes me to get on here and here someone say their 040/060 is more responsive than Windows XP.

Maybe I am a developer and I live in the USA but I just really see most of this stuff as just people's "inexperience" with intel hardware and software..

I always research anything I do and for the majority of smart Amiga folks the PC platform is hardly rocket science.. The only thing that gets to me on here is the anti-intel microsoft bias that exists here. I don't see pc folks ever trashing the Amiga for it's os or capabilities.

This is a world of "choice" and I really don't understand the negativity. The PC really didn't destroy or delete the Amiga market place. The Amiga caved in on itself due to problems with the company running the show at the time..

Most people who use PCs daily wouldn't agree with the sentiment about how difficult the PC is to use. Most folks on the PC platform stay with mainstream pc hardware and software don't have half the problems people talk about on here.

I think the community would attract a lot more people to the Amiga if the users weren't talking about "how much better the machine is vs this other machine" it would be nice to hear "Why"  and what they actually use this machine for. It can't be just that the PC is so problematic.

I wanna hear what "Cool" stuff people are doing with their Amigas..