The legal future of "Amiga"

[orb85750]

dammy wrote:
by orb85750 on 2008/12/2 17:23:00

If Hyperion's use of the term "Amiga" were so obviously illegal, then the court would have issued an injunction against the current sale of AmigaOS4 a long time ago, right?

No, AI failed to show catastrophic harm being done if Acube is selling OS4 for their SAM440.  Judge stated that things can be repaired by damages being awarded.  See the Judge's ruling.


Dammy

Please reread the document.  If Amiga Inc. becomes insolvent (and that seems to be the main bone of contention), then Hyperion is entitled to market OS4 under the AmigaOS trademark, which is exactly what they're doing now.

[orb85750]

persia wrote:
You've also got the insolvency clause.  If Amiga Inc (Amino) truly was insolvent before the transfer of assets to Amiga Inc (KMOS), then Hyperion win.  That's one of the complicating matters of the whole situation, the company that is suing Hyperion IS NOT the company that Hyperion had the contract with.

Die Hyperion really pay out US$2 Million to programmers?  There's no way they'll ever recoup that money.  That's just crazy.  Neither Hyperion nor Amiga Inc have any possibility of getting that much money from Amiga development.

I am confounded by the notion held here by many that the total potential Amiga user base cannot exceed a few thousand, especially given that it used to be millions.  If a complete, user-friendly (ready to use without assembly!) machine is produced and marketed with some modest budget by a competent company, do you still forecast an absolute ceiling of only a few thousand machines selling?

[persia]

The problem is that this is 2008 not 1988.  OS X and Windows have a lock on the market.  Even Linux can't make it to the desktop in large numbers.

The main issues confronting any new OS are:

1) Software, can I open a .docx or .xlsx file, edit it and returned the marked up document?  Can I play the latest games?  Can I edit my photos and videos?  Can sync my phones address book with the one on my computer?  Can I play a modern game?  The answer to these for AmigaDos 4.1 is NO, for all practical purposes.  Heck I can't really even surf the web properly.

2) Bang for the Buck.  Is it affordable for me to make the switch?  Is the price performance ratio good?  Again, if the Sam card the answer is a definite NO.  The price/performance ratio is bad against Mac and horrible against PC.

3) Stability of he supply, if I'm buying something non-standard will the company be around next year?  History probably works against Amiga here.

4) Technology leap, this was Amigas original strength.  But nothing in AmigaDos says cutting edge, indeed AmigaDos 4.1 is still not up to 2008 trailing edge.

So in the end who will buy an Amiga?  Retro-Geek and hobbyists, a nice niche market but really only in the thousands of people  It isn't pessimism, that's realism.  

I may buy a SAM for play but they have to pry my MacPro from my cold dead hands.  I love 1988, but I live in 2008.  With Amiga I can relive 1988, but when there's work to do the Amiga simply can't cut it.

[orb85750]

persia wrote:
The problem is that this is 2008 not 1988.  OS X and Windows have a lock on the market.  Even Linux can't make it to the desktop in large numbers.

The main issues confronting any new OS are:

1) Software, can I open a .docx or .xlsx file, edit it and returned the marked up document?  Can I play the latest games?  Can I edit my photos and videos?  Can sync my phones address book with the one on my computer?  Can I play a modern game?  The answer to these for AmigaDos 4.1 is NO, for all practical purposes.  Heck I can't really even surf the web properly.

2) Bang for the Buck.  Is it affordable for me to make the switch?  Is the price performance ratio good?  Again, if the Sam card the answer is a definite NO.  The price/performance ratio is bad against Mac and horrible against PC.

3) Stability of he supply, if I'm buying something non-standard will the company be around next year?  History probably works against Amiga here.

4) Technology leap, this was Amigas original strength.  But nothing in AmigaDos says cutting edge, indeed AmigaDos 4.1 is still not up to 2008 trailing edge.

So in the end who will buy an Amiga?  Retro-Geek and hobbyists, a nice niche market but really only in the thousands of people  It isn't pessimism, that's realism.  

I may buy a SAM for play but they have to pry my MacPro from my cold dead hands.  I love 1988, but I live in 2008.  With Amiga I can relive 1988, but when there's work to do the Amiga simply can't cut it.

Last I checked, Linux was doing pretty well, with literally millions of individual users worldwide.  If Amiga OS4.x (some version) can overcome a few shortcomings, then there certainly is plenty of hope for Amiga (well, if a certain trademark holder were to step aside or go bankrupt).  Apple has effectively won its uphill battle.  Linux has effectively won its uphill battle.  So it's not clear why some other entity could not accomplish a tiny fraction of what has been accomplished in either of those cases.  

SAM is a good hobbyist option, but it's certainly not designed for the computer-literate masses (obviously).  Is it not possible to produce an OS4.x for a relatively cheap machine that is user-friendly and ready for immediate use?  Add a very cool case (apparently something that resembles the A1200!) and some compatible software (along with general compatibility of classic Amiga software) and there will be buyers if the price is decent.  Build the future from there.  Of course Amiga will never overtake Windows/Mac/Linux, but that does not mean we're limited to the few thousand current Amiga users, IMO.

[orb85750]

One final point ...OK, not final, but important:  I'm an Amiga user (fun only at this point), a Windows user (business
and fun) and a Linux user (business and scientific programming).  Don't assume that everyone commits fully to only one platform.  Such polygamy is not uncommon.

[dammy]

Please reread the document. If Amiga Inc. becomes insolvent (and that seems to be the main bone of contention), then Hyperion is entitled to market OS4 under the AmigaOS trademark, which is exactly what they're doing now.

Problem for Hyperion, Evert never bothered to go get a court order awarding of OS4 and associated IP to Hyperion when/if they thought AI was insolvent.  Bigger problem for Hyperion, AI never went insolvent by definition of US Code.  Of course Hyperion signing that paid in full to Itech for OS4 makes things look even worse for Evert's case.

Dammy

[paolone]

by persia on 2008/12/3 5:03:14

The problem is that this is 2008 not 1988. OS X and Windows have a lock on the market. Even Linux can't make it to the desktop in large numbers.

Main issue of Linux is... Linux itself. You can't get to the masses by hiding a natural complexity under a deep layer of shiny GUI gadgets. MacOS X has success because it's made by people with the USER in mind, not the CODER. Linux still remains a guru choice becase it's enough to scrap a bit the surface, to start looking at an unclever, unfriendly mess of files, libraries and tools with barely intellegible names and functions. People developing this mess loves it too, and won't ever do any auto-criticism.

[recidivist]

 Apple prices are indeed higher than generic PC;so are other brands in other markets,yet does everyone hate them?
 Making enough money to pay your staff and stockholders well is the point of being in business;just barely meeting expenses and  depending on unpaid volunteers is something else.
 I think both companies have used bad practices but Hyperion at least delivers product .

[persia]

The key to Linux is you can multiboot the machine, into MS Windows and if you are not too concerned with EULA issues, into OS X.  A PPC machine can boot into what, a ppc version of Linux?  With little or no software...

SO what you have is a retro looking OS on seriously underpowered machines (mobile phone level) at big box prices with no software produced by a couple of companies that are deep in debt.  Yep, Tesco's will jump on that for sure.

Most of the old Amiga owners have moved on.  I met an old friend the other day.  He and I started the local Amiga club together.  We talked about Amiga and the fact that I still own a couple and play with UAE.  He just sort of laughed and said that if he were to go back to Amiga there would need to be a reason, a killer app that he had to have, otherwise he would stay with his PC.

In the end we can live in hope that Hyperion win, get rid of the back debt through bankruptcy and produce some nice machines we can tinker with.

I don't see why someone doesn't produce a classic Amiga in a joystick, I'd buy it...

[Piru]

@persia

A PPC machine can boot into what, a ppc version of Linux? With little or no software...

Huh? Care to explain that?

[Fester]

orb85750 wrote:
I am confounded by the notion held here by many that the total potential Amiga user base cannot exceed a few thousand, especially given that it used to be millions.  If a complete, user-friendly (ready to use without assembly!) machine is produced and marketed with some modest budget by a competent company, do you still forecast an absolute ceiling of only a few thousand machines selling?

Not at all. Why shouldn't Amiga succeed? I believe it can.

[Trev]

A PPC machine can boot into what, a ppc version of Linux? With little or no software...

Windows, Linux, and Mac OS are not the end all, be all of operating systems. AIX, for example, is quite capable.

[Dandy]

persia wrote:

The problem is that this is 2008 not 1988.  OS X and Windows have a lock on the market.  Even Linux can't make it to the desktop in large numbers.

The main issues confronting any new OS are:

1) Software, can I open a .docx or .xlsx file, edit it and returned the marked up document?  

Fully agreed so far - this compatibility is a must nowadays.

persia wrote:

Can I play the latest games?  

Are you talking about an "Operating System" or about an "Gaming System"?

An "Operating System" should of course be able to run the latest games developed for it.

But gaming is not my preference...

persia wrote:

Can I edit my photos and videos?  

I can edit my photos and videos on my Miggy - furthermore the AmigaOS is no "new OS".

persia wrote:

Can sync my phones address book with the one on my computer?  

I have no phone numbers stored in my computers - so I have no synchronizing needs so far...

persia wrote:

Can I play a modern game?  

Should I really feel the need to play a modern game one day, I'm quite confident there will be games consoles available for that purpose.

persia wrote:

The answer to these for AmigaDos 4.1 is NO, for all practical purposes.  

Hmmmmm - I don't know OS 4.1 yet.

I have os 4.0 for classics, but didn't have the time up to now to play around with it to see what's possible and what not.

I currently just have OS 3.9 / WarpOS 16.1 as my main OS on my Amiga at home.

And from my own experience my answer to all is YES.

persia wrote:

Heck I can't really even surf the web properly.

Then I'd say it's time to learn it...
 :-P

Really - I'd say this might depend on the sites you visit.
The pages I frequently visit all work flawlessly with IBrowse or AWeb on an clssic Amiga.

persia wrote:

2) Bang for the Buck.  Is it affordable for me to make the switch?  

I'd say this could depend on your income and on how much of it you are able/willing to spend for your hobby.

persia wrote:

Is the price performance ratio good?  Again, if the Sam card the answer is a definite NO.  

I agree that the sam isn't the best choice regarding "Bang for the Buck". It would be unbeatable, if this Yellow Dog Linux Power Station would be supported by AOS - initially atlesast one core (multi core processing capabilities could be added later on)

persia wrote:

The price/performance ratio is bad against Mac and horrible against PC.

Given the low production volumes I would not expect anything else.

persia wrote:

3) Stability of he supply, if I'm buying something non-standard will the company be around next year?  

That's a valid point, I'd say...

persia wrote:

History probably works against Amiga here.

Although one easily could object that they are still around - despite all the trouble in the past 14 years...
 ;-)

persia wrote:

4) Technology leap, this was Amigas original strength.  But nothing in AmigaDos says cutting edge,

Equally nothing in MS-DOS says cutting edge...

persia wrote:

indeed AmigaDos 4.1 is still not up to 2008 trailing edge.

Who decides what the "trailing edge" is for Amiga Operating Systems?

And who is keen to buy "trailing edge"?

I don't buy things just because they are "trailing edge" - I buy them because they meet my needs.

If they don't, I don't buy.

persia wrote:

...
but when there's work to do the Amiga simply can't cut it.

That might depend on the work you try to do or how you try to do it.

[dammy]

by orb85750 on 2008/12/2 21:05:40

Please reread the document. If Amiga Inc. becomes insolvent (and that seems to be the main bone of contention), then Hyperion is entitled to market OS4 under the AmigaOS trademark, which is exactly what they're doing now.

Good luck with that, not going to happen as AI was not insolvent under US Code.  They have enough receipts that show what they bought, what they have sold stock for, Evert is going to have a heck of a time convincing the Jury of that. Then the appeals circus starts.  :roflmao:  Jan is almost here, then we may have a hard trial date.  Even if Evert wins this entire court case, he'll have to go back to court to force AI to turn over the trademarks, in Federal court.  Yeah, right.

Dammy

[Tripitaka]

@orb85750
Thanks for  the court detail,nice to get up to date.
@Fingers
LMAO, best disclaimer ever.
@persia
Awesome sig.

Well, I'm praying for a Hyperion victory, they at least seem to have some drive about them and some faith in the OS.
As to other points raised in this thread:
1: Mac's are very nice and I'd love one, shame they cost so freakin' much. However if you build a pc whilst looking at the mac compatibility list you could make a nice "Hackintosh".
2: I have no doubt that Amiga can still make big sales. Anyone lacking faith just take a look at how well the Asus eee PC's sell.
3: It is also my opinion that an "AGA Amiga in a joystick", New AGA MOBO's (like Natami) and modern powerful MOBO's with OS4, PCIE etc.. are all viable.
4: A true Amiga IMHO is a combination of OS and hardware. The OS has progressed at least, thanks to Hyperion, but the hardware? I bought my A1200 years ago because it was as easy to use for games as a console, more powerful, expandable and yet.......it was a proper computer too. This is exactly what I'd like to buy again but nothing truly exists to fill the gap. OK, I know I can run Linux on pretty much anything but Linux is not user-centric, it's coder-centric, at least for now. A PS3 with OS4 would be nice but that isn't even the ideal, unless they made a PS3 in a wedge with a keyboard, or a laptop version and maybe a big box PS3 with lot's of expansion slots..... aahh....the good ol' days. :roll:

[kolla]

Trev wrote:
AIX, for example, is quite capable.

It is? News for me!  :lol:

I think I'd rather mention NetBSD, OpenBSD etc, than AIX.