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AuthorTopic: MorphOS on x86???  (Read 7798 times)

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Offline Golem!dk

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2008, 08:36:12 PM »
@ferrellsl

No, you're the first, thanks.
~
 

Offline Hans_

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2008, 08:47:16 PM »
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trekiej wrote:
I have done some C programming and wanted to know if some one could give us a good example of when endianess becomes an issue. I bet this has been a subject many times before.


Have a look at the source-code to cd-record. Specifically, look at the file scsimmc.h. You'll see that the bit-fields are inverted, depending on the endianness of the CPU. There will also be other, non-bitfield issues too.

Hans
http://hdrlab.org.nz/ - Amiga OS 4 projects, programming articles and more. Home of the RadeonHD driver for Amiga OS 4.x project.
 

Offline warpdesign

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2008, 08:47:37 PM »
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Problem there is that you must drop all existing software.

There is a wonderfull piece of software called UAE... And guess what, it runs on x86! And guess what, it allows to run more software than any AmigaOS will ever run natively...

Next problem ?

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We can't support every x86 piece of hardware.

Who says you need to support every piece of hardware ? Does the PPC version runs on every PPC version outthere ?
No: motherboard has been selected, and software is stick to it. Why would it be different for x86 ?

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We would compete with Windows

Really ? Is MorphOS competing with Linux on PPC ?
Guess it doesn't... Why would it be different with x86 ?

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x86 is evil

Once upon a time Steve Jobs said Apple would never use intel microprocessors... Today the x86 is faster and cheaper than any other desktop class processor... Steve Jobs decided to switch to x86. Apple has never ever sold so many Macintosh than today. Yes: maybe x86 isn't the reason... But for sure x86 has nothing to do with evil...

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The primary reason we won't see MorphOS on x86 any time soon is simply demand related.

Really ?
170 million x86 computers are sold each year. That's more potential users than the Amiga ever had, even in it's golden age...

There are like what... 5 thousand Pegasos outhere ? As much Efikas ?

Do the maths...

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It would take a lot of time

The sooner it is started, the sooner it is finished then... And as for the software, most NG software are already available for x86 (mplayer, emulators, SDL software, compression libs, png libs,...) and could be recompiled with some changes...

No, the reason we won't see any AmigaNG OS on x86 is because they are closed source, and leaders don't think it would be a good idea/doable and/or don't want to see it on x86...
 

Offline trekiej

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2008, 08:50:56 PM »
@ Hans_ Thanks.
Amiga 2000 Forever :)
Welcome to the Planar System.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2008, 09:39:44 PM »
@warpdesign

Yeah, really.  All those x86 boxes being sold are running Windows or Linux.  People aren't buying them and waiting with bated breath for a MorphOS port!!!!!!!

When enough people want MorphOS on x86, the MorphOS team will do a return on investment analysis.  If they can make money by porting it to x86, then they'll do it.  Why else would they do it?  Out of love for the OS???  Get real.  They need to eat and pay their bills too, just like everyone else.
 

Offline itix

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #20 on: September 08, 2008, 10:04:56 PM »
@warpdesign

Quote

Quote

Problem there is that you must drop all existing software.

There is a wonderfull piece of software called UAE... And guess what, it runs on x86! And guess what, it allows to run more software than any AmigaOS will ever run natively...


(Win)UAE is not an operating system. But maybe you meant that MorphOS could map all memory on x86 as big endian and run 68k software natively.

Without the software MorphOS is like Windows NT on PPC. Nice to have but completely useless because there is nothing to run.

Quote

Quote

We would compete with Windows

Really ? Is MorphOS competing with Linux on PPC ?


Actually MorphOS competes with Windows all the time.
My Amigas: A500, Mac Mini and PowerBook
 

Offline mschulz

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #21 on: September 08, 2008, 10:50:19 PM »
Quote

ferrellsl wrote:
The enitre argument that endian-ness is the reason that MorphOS will never be ported to x86 is ridiculous.


It's not. The community would expect that you are able to run all your existing m68k and ppc software on such x86 MOS. With MOS (and AmigaOS in general) design it is not feasible. Don't use Rosetta of OSX as an example because it's wrong one. Small example: on OSX a process has a PID assigned - unique identifier. If you will call FindTask(NULL) MOS and/or AmigaOS, you will receive a pointer to the struct Task, the very same structure MOS is using internally. Try to deal with it and find a sane solution for Little-endian system (with little-endian layout of all system structures) and big-endian software running on emulated PPC and using the very same little-endian layouted system structures (the software would expect them to be big endian though).

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Several operating systems have made the leap to x86 without any problems whatsoever. OSX is one example.


OSX is an example of an operating system which separates userland from kernel space. On MOS they are basically the same.

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Even Windows NT went the opposite direction and was ported to PPC many years ago.


I'm sorry to disappoint you, but PPC NT was running PowerPC cpu in little endian mode.


and from another message:

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I'm tired of arm-chair experts who constantly sound like parrots and repeat the same old garbage that endian-ness is what is keeping MorphOS from being ported to x86.


Prove they are wrong then. No, giving an example is not enough. Prove them, that you may do such transition with Amiga-like operating system.

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If it's such a problem, then how did the AROS team port it to PPC?


Simply. We didn't cared about the binary compatibility. Therefore, you are not able to run x86 AROS software on PPC AROS and vice versa. Keep in mind however, that if the amiga community wants MOS or OS4 on x86, they will demand to be able to run m68k and/or PPC software through a built-in transpared emulator integrated tightly into the system. That's the point. I, an AROS developer, don't care about it actually, but most people here do care.

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And of course it means the applications need to be recompiled for the target OS unless you use something like Rosetta or Wine or DOSBox. Nobody is/was arguing this point,


You seem to be new here :)). Most people in Amiga community want it. The people here don't care x86 unless you would be able to run original m68k and ppc software on x86 without recompilation. Not to mention they will be very unhappy if you would suggest running such old m68k software on x86 MOS through UAE. They would likely hate you for having such crazy idea ;)

If they would never mind it, they would support projects like AROS with pleasure. But no, most people expect AROS developers to make the integrated m68k emu for AROS.
 

Offline cicero790

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #22 on: September 08, 2008, 11:27:44 PM »
Very nice web site Warpdesign.

If only Dennis could make minimig into a pci card. Then a x86 motherboard would have a true heart and a migration for the OS would be easier to justify. How about a MEGAMIG.
A1200 030 40MHz: 2/32MB Indivision AGA MkII
A600 7 MHz: 2MB
AROS 600 MHz
PC 13600 MHz: quad core i7 2600K 3.4GHz: 16GB RAM: ATI HD6950 2GB   (Yes I know)

WINUAE AmiKit ClassicWB AmigaSYS UAE4Droid  

 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2008, 12:58:56 AM »
@mschulz

Uhhhh, sorry to inform you, but it has ALREADY been proven.......look at all the operating systems out there that have been ported to different architectures, both PPC and x86, such as Yellow Dog Linux (x86 and PPC), OS X (x86 and PPC), Windows NT (PPC and x86). Are you saying that they weren't ported?  I bet you think the lunar landings were faked too!  I never said that the ports didn't suffer from a lack of support or software.

All the operating systems that I've mentioned have been ported to different architectures that have endian differences.  That's what this entire thread is about.....Mingle, the guy who started this thread asked a valid question as to what was keeping MorphOS from being ported to x86.  Some wise-acre said it was due to endian-ness and would therefore not happen...he said that endian-ness was such a huge technical issue that it couldn't be overcome.  That is utter crap.  It all boils down to demand.  And just because a handful of Amigans on this forum want to run it on x86 is meaningless too.  Until the MorphOS team and its investors can make money from a MorphOS port, it will never be ported.  It isn't a technical or a programming problem.  It's a money and demand problem. There aren't enough users on this forum to make it profitable for the MorphOS team to port MorphOS to x86 and there never will be for several reasons.  The community is too small now to make it profitable.  There isn't enough demand for the port, let alone the applications that people would want or need to run on the port.  If the demand was there, the port would happen, and so would the applications.  Even MorphOS on PPC lacks a large user base and is several generations behind the rest of world in terms of software like a mature and robust web browser and an office suite.  Until an OS has those things, it will always be a "hobby" OS.....just a geek toy.

Now I can see why so many  people have left the Amiga community and especially this site.  This site as well as the one at Amigaworld.net is full of people who have no idea what they're talking about who simply lay in wait to troll, flame others and spread disinformation.
 

Offline Piru

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Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2008, 01:06:32 AM »
@ferrellsl

You are wrong in more than one ways. I don't even bother going into this porting stuff, mschulz is more than capable in skinning you alive on that.

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Until the MorphOS team and its investors can make money from a MorphOS port, it will never be ported.

If you're thinking we're making any profit you're gravely mistaken.

It is not about making money. It's about having the whole codebase written for big endianity in mind (except the parts which loan from AROS). It would be horrible nightmare to go thru all of it. Plus there would be the requirement to not only rewritete the 68k emulation (two of them in fact!), but to write PPC emulator aswell.

And lets not even go into the gazillion different HW configurations that users would like to have supported. Sure in theory you could set some strict limitations on what you support, but that HW would be obsolete in 6 months anyway. With the limited resources we have it would be just impossible to keep writing new drivers all the time.

Thanks, but no thanks.

Quote
This site as well as the one at Amigaworld.net is full of people who have no idea what they're talking about who simply lay in wait to troll, flame others and spread disinformation.

There always are some.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2008, 01:41:18 AM »
I never said that you guys were making money on MorphOS, but you certainly wouldn't continue its development if it was losing money, at least not for long.

All I've been saying is that it's technically possible to port MorphOS to x86.....nothing more, nothing less.  And that the endian-ness issues could be overcome.  Other operating systems have done it and I'm certain you and your team are more than smart enough to do it as well.  But you won't do it if it means you and the team lose money in the process with no chance to recoup your investment in time or in money.

But maybe you guys ARE that dedicated and love MorphOS so much that you'd develop for a money-losing venture.  I personally would like to see MorphOS on x86 hardware too, but I have to be realistic.  And I don't want to see you or anyone on the team go bankrupt either!
 

Offline Piru

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Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2008, 01:54:22 AM »
@ferrellsl
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you certainly wouldn't continue its development if it was losing money, at least not for long.

8 years is not long?
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All I've been saying is that it's technically possible to port MorphOS to x86.....nothing more, nothing less

Bollocks, you were saying a lot more than that.
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Other operating systems have done it and I'm certain you and your team are more than smart enough to do it as well.

That's not the problem. Read my previous post again.

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But you won't do it if it means you and the team lose money in the process with no chance to recoup your investment in time or in money.

Again: It is not about money.

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I don't want to see you or anyone on the team go bankrupt either!

We all (as far as I know) have full time jobs you know (can't remember if some of the team members are still students, though). No-one is making a living from MorphOS, that's for sure.

So please stop this "losing money" BS. Thank you.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2008, 03:14:56 AM »
OK, if it's not about making money, then give MorphOS away for free instead of charging 150 EU for it.  And port it to x86 for free too.

Don't try to make us believe that MorphOS is a charity OS.  150 EU is a lot of money for any OS.

When you guys stop charging 150 EU for it, I'll stop believing it's a business.
 

Offline downix

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #28 on: September 09, 2008, 04:09:50 AM »
Quote

ferrellsl wrote:
OK, if it's not about making money, then give MorphOS away for free instead of charging 150 EU for it.  And port it to x86 for free too.

Don't try to make us believe that MorphOS is a charity OS.  150 EU is a lot of money for any OS.

When you guys stop charging 150 EU for it, I'll stop believing it's a business.

It is?
**checks prices**
Vista Ultimate: $450
Windows Server: $1000+
Netware: $36,642.00

MorphOS looks pretty reasonable to me.

Hey Piru, any chance of getting MorphOS onto SPARC instead?  At least we have new hardware and are BE.  8)
Try blazedmongers new Free Universal Computer kit, available with the GUI toolkit Your Own Universe, the popular IT edition, Extremely Reliable System for embedded work, Enhanced Database development and Wide Area Development system for telecommuting.
 

Offline ferrellsl

Re: MorphOS on x86???
« Reply #29 on: September 09, 2008, 04:26:17 AM »
@downix

You must be kidding!!!!

Vista Home Premium $65.99
Linux $0
OS X Leopard $85

Prices are all from Amazon.com's US site.

And who in their right mind would compare MorphOS to Windows Server, Netware, or Vista?  MorphOS is not even in the same league.  It's a hobby OS.  Nobody will be buying MorphOS for web hosting or for much else since it has few applications.

So yeah, MorphOS is a bit on the pricey side when you consider that 150 EU is roughly $211 US at the current exchange rate.