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Author Topic: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....  (Read 10656 times)

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Offline joekster

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2008, 12:30:54 PM »
Came across this on ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Applied-Microsystems-Code-ICE-68040_W0QQitemZ3868461965QQihZ015QQcategoryZ1504QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

doesn't seem too expensive... I'm not sure what the onboard cpu is for - maybe there is a fallback mode???
 

Offline Linde

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2008, 01:47:44 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
2) Once you've built this new CPU board, you would want to add USB, a sound chip, a GFX chip, perhaps S-ATA (you pretty much get all these things for free with the x86 support chips)... then you have to ask yourself what is the Amiga actually doing? Why have I bothered to build an interface to the Amiga when everything is now offloaded to the new board...

What exactly does the amiga do when it's connected to a PPC accelerator and a Mediator with a Voodo 3 card and a Soundblaster? What's wrong with using a Voodo 3 and a Soundblaster from the PCI bus of the PC instead? A "well expanded" Amiga these days is just a bunch of hardware loosely held together by an A1200 motherboard anyway.

Quote

bloodline wrote:
But all this revolves around the flawed assumption that UAE is less compatible than real hardware, this really isn't true anymore.

I hate to burst your bubble, but have you looked at the changelog over the past few versions? If it wasn't "less compatible" than real hardware, why would they still be fixing emulation bugs? Oh, and there are the inherent flaws like the slightly delayed input and delayed sound output. I'm not saying UAE sucks. It's just that chipset emulation still doesn't compare to the real deal, especially when it comes to AGA. I think the developers would agree with me.

Of course, the idea is probably not economically viable, and I don't think any sane developer would pick it up, but one can always hope. Some very advanced hobby projects have gone pretty far thanks to devoted and passionate developers, like the Minimig or the 1541 Ultimate.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2008, 02:07:29 PM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>Such a design would be totally blighted by endian conversion issues. You'd probably need to use the big-endian memory access tricks they did for amithlon.

But he is suggesting some interface hardware in between to do the CPU signal translation in real-time.



How does this external converter know what size element is being accessed in order to do that?

The CPU core will perform byte/word/long/quad reads and writes on its own caches but the CPU as a whole will perform cache line transfers to/from the main memory. I can't see how any interface in between can have any way of knowing what the data being transferred is in order to to do any swapping. All it will see are long bursts of fixed width accesses.
int p; // A
 

Offline BillHarrisonTopic starter

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2008, 05:05:02 PM »
Perhaps I was not clear enough:

The info will not be processed using the "X86" processor but an EMULATED 680xx processor.  For example:

Run emulator software on PC - It waits for a "Boot" signal from the amiga hardware, basically connected "In Place" of the 680xx cpu.  When it sees this boot signal, same as the 68000 cpu it replaced, it will do exactly what the 68000 would.  

I mean basically, you would have a connector shaped like the cpu your replacing.  You would plug said connector in in place of the cpu.  The emulator software would then provide the correct signals through a cable to this "Cpu" emulator, in essence allowing the pc to become the processor.  Endian issues should NOT be a problem because the emulation knows what to expect, and will deal with it the same way that a 68000 would, ie basically the core of WINUAE etc.  I mean, a 68000 basically is using +5v and 0 for signals.  You would design a pc card or usb interface (If fast enough) that would do 2 things= read the +5v pins on the cpu connector that the amiga would put out, and in return set +5v or 0 on the pins that the amiga expects from the cpu.  Thats the only connection a 68000 has to the amiga, a series of +5v and 0v, can be duplicated through this interface.

The card then digitizes? the +5v and 0 to provide data to the emulator, which then performs whatever op + memory operation the instruction says to do.  Note, this is "Emulated" memory as well as op codes, so endian conversions should not have to occur, its all done with native signals from the amiga and then back out to the amiga.  

Granted My hardware level understanding is not amazingly great, but basic, but here is how I see it:

Power on, PC sees +5v on a certain line, telling the amiga has been powered on.  At this point, and I don't know the technicalities of it, it likely starts reading from the Amiga Rom chip for hardware level boot info.  The pc just acts like the 68000.  

Am I clear enough? Or am I explaining this wrong.
Quote

Karlos wrote:
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>Such a design would be totally blighted by endian conversion issues. You'd probably need to use the big-endian memory access tricks they did for amithlon.

But he is suggesting some interface hardware in between to do the CPU signal translation in real-time.



How does this external converter know what size element is being accessed in order to do that?

The CPU core will perform byte/word/long/quad reads and writes on its own caches but the CPU as a whole will perform cache line transfers to/from the main memory. I can't see how any interface in between can have any way of knowing what the data being transferred is in order to to do any swapping. All it will see are long bursts of fixed width accesses.
 

Offline derringer3

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2008, 05:52:25 PM »
Pegasos/A1 machines do the same, as this topic speaks about. These babies is like an accelerated old amigas, with g4 1GHz cpu. On my peg MOS2 boot time is about 2 sec. Just like on my pc booting winuae.
Ok you can do a lot of things faster, mos2/os4 has some new apps, but compared to linux or windows, the avaliablity of softwares is converging to zero. That's the real problem not just the speed.
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Offline kreciu

Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #34 on: August 21, 2008, 05:52:58 PM »
I heard so many different ideas (the good one!) how to make my old Migi run faster... problem is that there is nobody who can make reality :(.

The main problem is a owner of the rights for Amiga etc. the Amiga INC. They just pushed double breaks and STOPPED Amiga in 1996 (no OS3.9 is just like... 3.1 ;) )

We need like 100 people willing to pay like $1000 each of and maybe... for $100000 someone will develop NEW "turbo" for old Amiga's or for NatAmi (some PPC board which can run OS4.0 for classic or OS4.1. :hhahhahahahahahhah:

Stop buying "crap" for $1200 on ebay invest this money... ;). Next idea how to make and accelerator. Tomorrow I can have different. Sorry... :-D
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Offline neofree

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #35 on: August 21, 2008, 07:02:20 PM »
Honestly, this is one of the most interesting ideas I've read in awhile.  I know something similar was done with the Commodore 64 to emulate a hard drive. (64HDD)

I don't see how the hardware has to be overly complex if the expectations were set that it would emulate *existing* accelerator boards.  (Or at least the speed expectations.)

I would think you would just find the simplest way to connect a cable to the expansion port of an Amiga 1200 (or Amiga 500) and connect it to the PC somehow.  Via USB? Or parallel port?  That'd be the first milestone.  I'm betting the software part would be fairly easy for someone who could work with UAE's code.

Thanks,

Neofree
 

Offline AmigaHeretic

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #36 on: August 21, 2008, 09:51:41 PM »
Quote

BillHarrison wrote:

Power on, PC sees +5v on a certain line, telling the amiga has been powered on.  At this point, and I don't know the technicalities of it, it likely starts reading from the Amiga Rom chip for hardware level boot info.  The pc just acts like the 68000.  

Am I clear enough? Or am I explaining this wrong.


I don't think everyone agrees this is possible.  I mean they are computers we can make them do whatever we want.  You are right, it's digital data, we hook some wires up from the A1200 expansion portlet say, and hook it to the PC (either USB, PCI, Firewire) and then have some emulation software that translates, so the PC looks like one big honking 68k hanging off the A1200 expansion bus.

Possible, but not easy.  No one has done it.

Next option is but 68k emultion code and the Amiga Rom image inside the PC Bios, then but the Amiga Chips on a PCI card.  Then turn the hold PC into a miggy
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Offline BillHarrisonTopic starter

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #37 on: August 21, 2008, 11:58:18 PM »
Thats exactly what I am thinking - Should not be hard from the hardware level - Some buffer circuitry, a little signal translation, basically reading the states of lines on the cpu slot, and providing the signals back as needed.  100$?  Should be doable, I have a cpu slot pinout chart, but no idea what most of the signals mean.  I also have not had any luck finding a low level boot up sequence for the 68000 in an amiga, and how an accelerator is initialized during this sequence.  

That all said, there are many good open source 68000 emulators, and basically modifying one of those for this project would work quite nicely.  

Basically :

Fetch Data on CPU slot -
Determine what to do with said data -
Perform Said operation -
Put Data on CPU slot -
Rinse and Repeat

I would like to really learn something more about the low level amiga hardware, bootstrapping, etc, any recommended sites?
 

Offline trekiej

Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2008, 04:39:19 AM »
I went to Wikipedia.org and looked at USB2.0 and noticed that USB3.0 is supposed to run 600 MBs. I believe a serial connection or maybe using a parallel cable from a PC IDE port may be an easier solution.

The usb cards for the A2000 might be modified to do such a thing but would not have the priority that the cpu slot would have.

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Offline pekmez

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2008, 06:16:23 AM »
why not just build a realtively cheap pc and install amithlon....mine is the fastest amiga i ever owned :)
 

Offline sim085

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2008, 08:29:41 AM »
Hi,

I came across this post this morning I must say it is a very interesting concept. I believe many people misunderstood BillHarrison however (or maybe I am?)

I think that what BillHarrison said is that you could have your (everyday) PC or laptop (the computer you use in real life). You then connect this to your Amiga CPU socket. Have an emulation software running on the PC which emulates the an accelerator card (or even PPC card). When Amiga sends data from the CPU port (as per usual) the emulation software on the PC would receive this, process it (having access to all the memory on the PC should make this a no business) and return the output.

If that is what BillHarrison said then all there is to be developed is the emulation software and a cable to connect the PC to the Amiga CPU port. Considering that there is plenty of hardware material to connect a PC to an Amiga, and that the emulation software already exists then I cannot understand what the problem is.

With a little bit more of effort then the software could emulate something like a the GVP A530 which had not only the processor but also a hard drive inside it and thus all your software could be installed on the same pc hard drive. This would also make it easier to see how different operating system worked on your Amiga Units, etc, etc (I am running outside the main point).

I know it is not the same as having the original Amiga hardware but I believe this is the best next thing.

Regards,
Sim085


 

Offline utri007

Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #41 on: August 22, 2008, 08:48:11 AM »
You have all forget Siamese systems, it does excatly what you are talkin about

More info here

http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=406630
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Offline sim085

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #42 on: August 22, 2008, 12:52:49 PM »
Regarding emulation. UAE already emulates the Amiga chipset correctly. Also there should be no licensing problems since UAE is under GNU General Public License. So can't this (or part of this) be used for such a project?
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #43 on: August 22, 2008, 01:40:59 PM »
If I could interupt this wankfest for a moment... But why?!?!

Ok, lets take the original idea... you have the Amiga (via the CPU slot) wired to a PC (probaby via a USB). Then the PC runs a 68k emulator and controls the Amiga. Ok... so where is the fast RAM going to be? On the Amiga or are you just going to use the PC's RAM? If you are going to use the PC's RAM, why not use the PC's GFX and Sound cards? Why not use it's Keyboard and Mouse... in fact why waste time with the Amiga at all, and JUST RUN UAE...

Offline BillHarrisonTopic starter

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #44 from previous page: August 22, 2008, 01:58:21 PM »
I mean, that could be said of this entire forum Bloodline.  Why mess with a slower / fragile / expensive hardware period?  Why not just ALL run winuae and forget the hardware completely?  

Nostalgia, the technical challenge, the feel of real amiga hardware, etc.  Why not stay at home and watch tv instead of climbing a mountain?  Its certainly easier!