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Offline BillHarrisonTopic starter

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Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« on: July 30, 2008, 03:21:24 PM »
OK, I am not around here much, and just recently started putting together an amiga.  But as I was browsing ebay and amibay looking for an accelerator, I had a thought.  Someone with more knowledge than me may be able to shoot this full of holes, but maybe im on to something:

Ok, we all know UAE works great, is very fast, faster than the fastest accelerator by quite a bit.  And speed upgrades are regularly released. However its not completely compatible and not "real" hardware, often in the sound/ custom chips area.  They never made any faster 68060's than 100mhz, and these were never used on amiga accelerators.  I have read threads about trying to use "Coldfire" chips, etc. but these all have varying issues.



With modern busses and interfaces in a pc so fast, and atleast the 68k processor emulation probably nearly perfected, why could we not use a PC as an accelerator?  Follow me through here:  Software program basically emulates the 68k40/60, whichever model + Co-Processor.  Build an interface (Should be easy enough) to fit the CPU slot on the amiga, a short cable (Don't know the technicalities of sending CPU data on a cable?) and connect it to the pc via?  I would guess PCI Express would have plenty of bandwidth.  So have a small card in the pc which should be cheap enough, all it really needs to do is convert modern signals to 68k amiga compatible signals, then put these out to the cpu slot of the amiga.  

As far as the amiga is concerned it would just be talking to an accelerator board, even though its a seperate pc.

Advantages? Well, you could allocate as much memory to the accelerator as you want, and adjust as needed.  You can tweak the code etc quickly and easily, no need for revamping hardware / etc.  You could change processor types / speeds with a simple reboot of the amiga.  Obviously it would be price competitive with current accelerator cards, as you can buy a brand new high speed pc for 300$ many times.  And most of us have them anyways. So price is a big advantage, if you could produce the hardware interface for 100$ish bundled with the software to make it all work.

Negatives?  Well, you would have to have the pc on anytime you used your amiga ACCELERATED (Don't see any reason you could not have a switch of sorts to simply boot your amiga stand alone stock), so power would be greatly increased (Of course in this day and age pcs are faster and great on power consumption, and alot of us, myself include run a pc 24/7 so it would not make much difference).  Size?  I imagine though with some of the smaller form factor pc's you could make something a little bigger than a mac mini and just dedicate it beside the amiga as a sort of "External" accelerator.  Or plug it into your regular pc and just use it as needed?  

So anyone with some real knowledge want to tell me why it won't work?  It seems feasible, but I am not a real good hardware guy.  Perhaps timing issues would be insurmountable?  Anyone?
 

Offline djbase

Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2008, 03:22:50 PM »
WinUAE on x86 PC sounds easier.
 

Offline BillHarrisonTopic starter

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #2 on: July 30, 2008, 03:28:36 PM »
Well, it is easier, but this is kinda something different all together.  I am thinking the ultimate application of this would be a 2.5ghz Mac Mini sized box, running this accelerator software on linux / etc, simply sitting beside your amiga.  Turn on the accelerator box, allow it to boot, then turn on the amiga and enjoy a 500mhz ish amiga, which would be unacheivable basically any other way.  Obviously winuae is the easiest way to have a "Fast" amiga, but to many its not real, and the special chips again are not emulated perfectly.  I guess its a different approach.  This way you get that "real amiga" feel with the sound, graphics, etc, because its all being done with the real amiga chipset.  Basically the same as having a 68060 equipped amiga, faster but real.
 

Offline joekster

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #3 on: July 30, 2008, 03:29:07 PM »
such a device already exists. it is called an in-circuit emulator.
 

Offline BillHarrisonTopic starter

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 03:31:09 PM »
Wow!  Who sells these and how come noone ever discusses them here?
 

Offline trekiej

Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 03:42:56 PM »
I was thinking of hooking a pci socket of a pc mainboard to the accelerator port of an amiga.
Use freedos to emulate 68k or ppc.
Some one seems to think that I am refering to elbox shark and I am not.
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Offline Piru

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2008, 03:49:21 PM »
Developing the actual interfacing hardware and software would probably make it as expensive as any other amiga accelerator.
 

Offline jorkany

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #7 on: July 30, 2008, 03:58:57 PM »
BillHarrison,

What you're talking about is known as an in-circuit emulator (ICE). We used them where I worked years ago for OS development with processors such as the Z80, 6502, etc. However, given that modern CPUs practically have debugging built-in, I don't know if ICEs are even used anymore.

Anyway, your idea could possibly work assuming you can get the timing issues worked out, but what's the advantage? You have an old Amiga using a PC as a very fast CPU - then what? Don't all your 68K programs work fine as-is on a real CPU? And for those that you want to run faster, don't you have better software on your PC to do those tasks anyway?

Technically it's an interesting idea that may have some merit, but from a practical standpoint it's not worth doing. It's not like you're going to gain anything by running Lemmings faster, for example.
 

Offline BillHarrisonTopic starter

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2008, 03:59:48 PM »
Perhaps, but even if it was "As expensive" as any other accelerator, it would be the only one you could buy a faster processor for at new egg.  I mean, it seems to have some obvious advantages in those areas.
 

Offline jorkany

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2008, 04:05:22 PM »
BillHarrison,
   Just read through the replies after my first post in this thread, and saw this:

Quote
Wow! Who sells these and how come noone ever discusses them here?

Just google and you'll probably find several companies who make them for a variety of CPUs. Probably the reason they are not discussed here is, ICEs are a fairly esoteric device used primarily for debugging embedded operating systems. Not many people have cause to use them, and they aren't meant to replace a processor to "make things work faster".

You can also assume they are not cheap.

 

Offline cpfuture

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2008, 04:10:48 PM »
It would definitely be cool if you could base it one of those small form factor motherboards and stick it inside a GVPA530 style case and slap it into the side card slot of an A500.

Just dreamin'.
;-)

Offline BillHarrisonTopic starter

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2008, 04:42:58 PM »
Well, I guess the idea would be its a pc + interface card, so you could build the PC anyway you see fit as long as you can put the interface card in it.  Gives alot of flexibility.  
 

Offline cv643d

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2008, 04:43:09 PM »
I think some German dude on A1k.org is already working on something like this, I think he has posted info/images about it here.
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Offline Hodgkinson

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Offline bloodline

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Re: Using a PC as an accelerator? Had an idea last night....
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2008, 04:59:49 PM »
@BillHarrison,

If we abstract your idea, you basiclly want to connect a modern x86 to the CPU bus of an Amiga. Then run a 68k emulator on the x86 so that the it looks like a 68k to the Amiga. Perfectly resonable idea and one I toyed with back in 2002... I expect my old posts are still in the archive here somewhere...

But now there are 3 problems...

1) As Piru has pointed out the market for this is so small it would be impossible to make it a resonable price, the cost of developing the hardware and software alone could NEVER be recouped.

2) Once you've built this new CPU board, you would want to add USB, a sound chip, a GFX chip, perhaps S-ATA (you pretty much get all these things for free with the x86 support chips)... then you have to ask yourself what is the Amiga actually doing? Why have I bothered to build an interface to the Amiga when everything is now offloaded to the new board...

3) On my machine at least (a MacBook Pro), it can, with UAE/WinUAE emulate any real Amiga I have... better than my real Amigas...since all output is by default on a nice monitor and via better audio... I don't have to use one of my aged Amiga Mice with the dodgy left click...

In short, it would have been nice 8 years ago... but not now :-)