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Author Topic: NatAmi 68070 design draft  (Read 25085 times)

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Offline KThunder

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2008, 09:04:36 PM »
put uae os3.1 rom etc into a pc bios :-D
Oh yeah?!?
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and its read only!
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Offline bloodline

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2008, 09:09:16 PM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
Quote

Zac67 wrote:
Quote
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.

Err...

The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.

He's trying to say that it is a microcoded processor. That is each CISC instruction is in fact a mini program running on a much simpler faster core.

I tried to give some positive feedback, but it is just showing the gulf between his ambitions and his capabilities.


He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...

Offline Nostalgiac

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2008, 09:16:37 PM »
Quote

KThunder wrote:
put uae os3.1 rom etc into a pc bios :-D


my point exactly (and add uae with a suited linux)

ta
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Offline amiga_3k

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2008, 09:17:58 PM »
Hmmm... I've not got to read about that 68070 thing but... I did read about the fact that Freescale seems to offer custom-made processor solutions where the buyer specifies the functions he / she wants to see added over the standard feature-set. As I understood it, you could take a 'standard' Coldfire processor and ask for adding instructions, say... the missing instructions that were available on the 68060 creating a more compatible Coldfire processor. And while you're at it, why not throw in some extra features that could make your special system just that little quicker ;-).

But then.. I could be wrong :-S.
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Offline alexh

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2008, 09:37:25 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...

I think a bog standard 68000 would run on the fastest FPGA's we have today somewhere close to the 100MHz rate... but they are not cheap FPGA's and once you start adding all the complex stuff the speed will nosedive.

I struggle to get 75MHz for ARM7 TDMI designs using FPGA chips that cost $1000's
 

Offline koaftder

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2008, 09:39:15 PM »
Quote

AmiBoy wrote:
For anyone who is interested in the NatAmi (like me) Gunnar has released an early draft on the 68070 processor they are hoping to implement in the model after the 060 equipmed Dev Board.

I dont really undrerstand any of it but I thought some of the more technical minded people on here might want to take a look!

http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php?b=4¬e=642


We'll just have to wait and see. Whether or not if it lives up to all the hype, it's going to be really cool, and it's going to exceed the 060.
 

Offline alexh

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2008, 09:40:13 PM »
Quote

koaftder wrote:
it's going to be really cool, and it's going to exceed the 060.

In numerical numbering at least ;-)
 

Offline AJCopland

Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #21 on: June 24, 2008, 09:45:06 PM »
Quote

alexh wrote:
Quote

koaftder wrote:
it's going to be really cool, and it's going to exceed the 060.

In numerical numbering at least ;-)

And in quantity, after all you could have maybe more than 10 of these in existence :-D

Ah, I wish they'd just investigate the ColdFire further over this option. Or at least start from another base and try extending it rather than make sweeping statements about 200Mhz 070's being easily achievable etc.

An 060 and a real, working, purchasable(!) Natami that's all that anyone wants.

Well somehow persuading Freescale to make some more 060s so the price comes down a bit would be handy too but lets not go nuts now ;)
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Offline HenryCase

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #22 on: June 24, 2008, 10:15:22 PM »
Quote
Matt_H wrote:
I'd suggest a different name to avoid confusion with this thing.


Some people have been calling it the N68070. That should be enough to avoid confusion with the existing 68070.

Quote
Zac67 wrote:
Actually I miss the point of recreating a completely new (?) RISC core to have it run/emulate/whatever 68k code.


1. It's not emulation. FPGAs give you the chance to build the real thing.
2. The main reason behind the N68070 is to integrate it with SuperAGA into one chip, giving cost and speed benefits over a 68060.

Quote
Zac67 wrote:
There are lots of low cost, high speed available CPUs (well, most of em x86), why not use on of them? While you're at it, add one of the off-the-shelf mobos that don't cost a fortune and are wickedly fast. Obviously you end up where Amithlon started - so I'd rather see a PCIe (or PCI if need be) board sporting an original AGA chipset or a nice vamped up Minimig/Natami/... chipset to get 100% compatibility. Most work (UAE) is already done.


How many f**king times have I got to answer this question. The NatAmi is called such because it is a NATive AMIga. You can have your emulation fun elsewhere, myself (and many others) want beefed up classic hardware, that's what the NatAmi offers. No x86, PPC, ARM, etc... or at least not as the main CPU.

Quote
Nostalgiac wrote:
as I said before.. I enjoy my A2000/060 as it is fun and makes me young again, but come on people, unless you make a 'new' Amiga OS run on x86 forget it ! (just finish aros and then add some 1000 features it is currently lacking... ok ?)


Then run AROS and leave the NatAmi to the people who want it... ok?

Quote
alexh wrote:
I tried to give some positive feedback, but it is just showing the gulf between his ambitions and his capabilities.


The document is just a rough draft, a sketch of where they'd like to go. If you can help them with technical suggestions (as you did on the EAB thread) then that is the positive feedback you are looking for in vain.

Quote
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...


Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?

Quote
amiga_3k wrote:
Hmmm... I've not got to read about that 68070 thing but... I did read about the fact that Freescale seems to offer custom-made processor solutions where the buyer specifies the functions he / she wants to see added over the standard feature-set. As I understood it, you could take a 'standard' Coldfire processor and ask for adding instructions, say... the missing instructions that were available on the 68060 creating a more compatible Coldfire processor. And while you're at it, why not throw in some extra features that could make your special system just that little quicker ;-).

But then.. I could be wrong :-S.


amiga_3k, it's a decent idea, but AFAIK Freescale don't let you modify the Coldfire core, but just build functions around it, so the issues with certain processor functions would still exist.

@all
As I've mentioned, the document is a rough draft. The Natami60 will be released without the N68070, there is plenty of time for discussion about how best to construct the N68070 without interfering with the Natami60 release. If you want to see the N68070 be the best CPU it can be and you have some 68k ASM knowledge then share your ideas with the Natami team.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2008, 10:32:00 PM »
Quote

HenryCase wrote:

Quote
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...


Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?


Absolutely no way anyone could ever raise the money to build a 68K ASIC... it would be quite a big and complex chip... There isn't any magic that can turn VHDL into an ASIC... you still need chip designers to load the HDL code into their software and work it into a functional chip...

This is big money...

Offline Hans_

Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2008, 10:41:57 PM »
Quote

Zac67 wrote:
Quote
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.

Err...

The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.

And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...



Err...

Wrong. The 68040 and 68060 convert CISC instructions to RISC for their internal core in a similar fashion to the way that the x86 does. Externally, it looks like a CISC processor. Coldfire has been called a "variable-length-risc"  processor because they made changes to the instruction set that put it more in-line with RISC architectures (i.e. they don't need the CISC to RISC conversion).

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Offline Plaz

Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2008, 10:46:13 PM »
@ alexh

How's this for my own theory. Dual Coldfire setup. CFv4/266 to start. It's primary job, to run the JIT for backward code compatability. The JIT feeds the second CPU ( CFv2/83 or perhaps another CFv4 @90-100mhz) that takes the place of the 68K.

I've made this suggestion before, but it didn't get much milage.

Plaz
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2008, 10:46:21 PM »
Quote

HenryCase wrote:

Quote
Zac67 wrote:
There are lots of low cost, high speed available CPUs (well, most of em x86), why not use on of them? While you're at it, add one of the off-the-shelf mobos that don't cost a fortune and are wickedly fast. Obviously you end up where Amithlon started - so I'd rather see a PCIe (or PCI if need be) board sporting an original AGA chipset or a nice vamped up Minimig/Natami/... chipset to get 100% compatibility. Most work (UAE) is already done.


How many f**king times have I got to answer this question. The NatAmi is called such because it is a NATive AMIga. You can have your emulation fun elsewhere, myself (and many others) want beefed up classic hardware, that's what the NatAmi offers. No x86, PPC, ARM, etc... or at least not as the main CPU.


Ok, I have a question... As you will note that Jens at the Breakpoint07 stated... "The Amiga was essentially unchanged for 8 years, If you change anything about the hardware, you create incompatibilities, basically you make a new platform... Why create a new platform... Just buy a Cheap PC?"... While I can see the value in projects like MiniMIG and CloneA, I'm not really sure what NATAMI is really trying to do...

Offline bloodline

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2008, 10:48:00 PM »
Quote

Plaz wrote:
@ alexh

How's this for my own theory. Dual Coldfire setup. CFv4/266 to start. It's primary job, to run the JIT for backward code compatability. The JIT feeds the second CPU ( CFv2 or perhaps another CFv4 @90-100mhz) that takes the place of the 68K.

I've made this suggestion before, but it didn't get much milage.

Plaz


Probably because your idea defeats the point of a JIT...

Offline HenryCase

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2008, 10:48:15 PM »
Quote

bloodline wrote:
Quote

HenryCase wrote:

Quote
bloodline wrote:
He optimistically suggests 200Mhz speed... Something as complex as a 68k CPU is never going to get even 20Hmz real speed on an FPGA... I'd be surprised if that to be honest...


Who said it would be on a FPGA? When they are designing it, yes. When they are manufacturing it a structured ASIC is much more likely, so let me ask you this, is 200MHz out of the question on a reasonably priced structured ASIC (like one of the Altera HardCopy series)?


Absolutely no way anyone could ever raise the money to build a 68K ASIC... it would be quite a big and complex chip... There isn't any magic that can turn VHDL into an ASIC... you still need chip designers to load the HDL code into their software and work it into a functional chip...

This is big money...


Read what I said. I did not say 'ASIC' I said 'structured ASIC'. The Altera HardCopy II may give enough power for a 200MHz 68k family CPU, and costs a fraction of a standard ASIC.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: NatAmi 68070 design draft
« Reply #29 from previous page: June 24, 2008, 10:52:04 PM »
Quote

Hans_ wrote:
Quote

Zac67 wrote:
Quote
The Motorola 68060 CPU was designed that way. Its a CISC decoder in front of a RISC execution pipeline.

Err...

The '060 has no RISC core - this is garbage. RISC starts with Coldfire.

And I'd like a to see an available 5 GHz RISC CPU...



Err...

Wrong. The 68040 and 68060 convert CISC instructions to RISC for their internal core in a similar fashion to the way that the x86 does. Externally, it looks like a CISC processor. Coldfire has been called a "variable-length-risc"  processor because they made changes to the instruction set that put it more in-line with RISC architectures (i.e. they don't need the CISC to RISC conversion).

Hans


Zac67 is right... The 060 had two pipelines (Forgive some errors as I'm working from 10 year old memories here), one could only execute the simpler 68K instructions the other could run all of them (and it also had an FP pipe, but the 040 had that too). That way you could get some instruction overlap.
It's not really RISC in the MPIS/SPARC sense, but it borrows a lot of ideas from the RISC research... Coldfire is 68k RISCed...