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Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #74 on: June 10, 2008, 12:40:25 AM »
>Name me one modern interface that is parallel? I have a long list of interfaces... your turn now.

All my PCs use parallel transfers from CPU to RAM, level 1 cache to the CPU, PCI bus to RAM, etc.  My own project of floppy simulation REQUIRES parallel signals being modified in real-time.

>I don't speculate, I trust testable research. Are you 12 years old?

I am going to PROVE that you are speculating and misleading others who believe you.  I am not stating the research is wrong but YOUR understanding of the research is wrong because perhaps you have not yourself actually done it.  see below.

>My iPhone is LCD based yet in the summer light the display is as clear as a peice of coloured paper... amazing to see actually!

Again switching between PC, Mac, and now iPhone.  We are comparing your PC w/LCD w/quad core or 1000-core to an Amiga.  All the LCDs I have tried in the outdoors give a poorer picture than a TV.

>>    Before I waste time writing you code that uses 3.57Mhz timing accuracy, are you claiming that the PC timer is more accurate than the Amiga timer? (just yes or no).

>Yes. Simple really.

Okay, I will PROVE you are wrong here as I already have done in another thread.  I will post the code-- which do you prefer 6502 (Atari) or 68000 (Amiga)?  Whichever is easier for you to understand.
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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #75 on: June 10, 2008, 12:44:04 AM »
Quote

pkillo wrote:
Having reflected on this thread for a while, I think I'm going to gently shove at it to see if I can't get it to move in a different direction. So, apologies in advance for the hijacking. :)

I think the Amiga definitely has a place in the modern world: to remind us of the poor quality of modern computers. It's certainly not alone in that place, either, but it's a good example, nonetheless.


How on earth is modern hardware poor quality?

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The 'modern' PC is a piece of junk. It's designed to be (partially) backwards compatible with systems that no one in their right mind would _ever_ want to actually use. Of course, the PC architecture has changed significantly from the days of AT PCs, probably to the point where very little code from that era would actually run on a brand-new PC.


First you claim that the  Modern PC is backwards compatible... Then claim that it's not actually compatible...

Meh... Yes the x86 boots in "Real Mode" (8bit)... but a modern BIOS or EFI will get out of Real Mode within the first few microseconds... I have actually run visicalc on my Athlon64 :-) So the industry has clung on to the old tech way beyond it's design life, simple due to the massive software investment of yesteryear... :-)

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However, the staying power of the x86 platform is largely based on this idea that a PC built today should work with junky old code from 5 years ago. This, imho, is also the reason why PCs are garbage.


Not quite... the x86 platform survived due to a massive software investment... that, but AMD and intel are not stupid, they moded out the old tech (Real Mode-8bit, Protected Mode-32bit, Long Mode-64bit) and kept the respective modes as clean as the technology of the time would allow... Long Mode is a very nice 64bit architecture!

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It's not the cost cutting, the commodity grade components, no! It's the fact that there hasn't been a significant break from the design flaws of PCs built to be compatible with older flawed PCs, which in turn were compatible with even older junk boxes, and so on.


You don't actually now what design flaws you think still exist... :-)

ISA is gone, Long Mode has cleaned up the instruction set and added lot of registers... Don't forget that the x86 has a very modern SSE unit for math co-processing...  and the actually hardware is totally modern... what flaws can still exist?

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We need to just toss the PC platform into the waste bin, and move on. I don't mean we should ignore what we've learned as we went along, in fact, quite the opposite. As a society we are in _desperate_ need of reliable computers that can be programmed to do their jobs without it taking man-years of time to make it happen.


My MacBookPro is the most reliable machine I;eve ever had... yes even more than my Amiga... I trust my Amiga and my MacBook Pro for live music work... and my Amiga can't do even 1/100th what my MBP can do live...

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I was re-reading John Backus's seminal paper (from the Communications of the ACM, August 1978) the other day, and it occurred to me that as much as we need to break away from the von Neumann style of programming to accomplish this goal, we also need to a modern computer system built from the ground up in a style that discourages things symptomatic of the root problem that causes our systems to be unreliable.


My live system isn't unreliable... it performs exactly as required in a realtime live music situation.

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Among these I would list code bloat in general, multi-megabyte device drivers, APIs that not only include the kitchen sink but many different implementations of one, and the lack of any mechanism for actually sharing libraries that aren't part of the basic functionality of the system. [I'm not talking about the technological capacity to link to them here; I mean the ability to actually derive income from the distribution of library code in a way that protects those of use who write it.


The Hardware that these massive drivers support, is so much more complex than anything we had in the 80's, that's why they are so big!

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Of late, I've been dreaming about an iTunes Store-like apparatus for selling software. I don't know that that would work, but it might just be worth a try.]


Apple, have just opened the AppStore... check it out... it's that very samw idea...

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Obviously, the Amiga never solved all of these problems; nor have any of the other 'cool' systems that have come and gone. But if we look back at them with nostalgia now, it's because their design, and the philosophy of design that went with them, is relevant to our every day, 'modern', experiences with technology.


The Amiga perfectly (and I don;t often use that term) solved the computing issues of the 80's... I really can't think of any better system in the 80's... in fact despite having no development from Commodore, the Amiga was still relevant during the early 90s!!! That's how good it was... but the modern word has very different issues.

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It's about time some of us took the lessons that can be learned from systems like the Amiga, and made the effort to build a computer that is beautiful, functional, and not hampered by the ridiculous assumption that someone really wants to run off the shelf software from a half decade ago or more. [As far as I can tell, the only software that fits _that_ description is the AmigaOS and a few other bits of technology that have similarly painted themselves into corners.]


Apple, woke up and filled that slot about 5 years ago... it took them a long time and the return of Steve Jobs... but they did it. I can't think of a better system that one could buy right now...

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #76 on: June 10, 2008, 12:48:49 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>By luck, not by design...

There's no such thing as luck as you already tried to use logic to explain it.

>It's totally different. Why would you use two USB lines?!?!? Simple slect USB-Highspeed if you need the bandwidth... or preferably use Firewire...

I hooked up the USB myself to my PC and there are four data lines so all I stated was someone could have incorporated that within the joystick port and maintained compatibility.


Actually 2 data lines... each line is a twisted pair + and -, this elmiates noise in the signal of the link.

The 2 data lines are :1 up stream and 1 down stream... it's a full duplex interface.

You really don't actually know anything of modern systems do you?!?!?

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>We are talking about the 21st century!!! The topic of this thread!

Yeah, so am I.  One MOVE.B, (IN AL,DX), LDA is faster than multiple of them.  And if the joystick port was updated to PCI bus, it would run faster than USB even at the hardware level avoiding all bloated APIs.




So why are we not using your system, and instead using the horrible bloated USB?

Honestly, USB may seem bloated, but it offers so much more, it's worth it.

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #77 on: June 10, 2008, 12:49:52 AM »
>The 'modern' PC is a piece of junk. It's designed to be (partially) backwards compatible with systems that no one in their right mind would _ever_ want to actually use. Of course, the PC architecture has changed significantly from the days of AT PCs, probably to the point where very little code from that era would actually run on a brand-new PC.

I think backward compatibility is a good thing, but they can definitely keep the backward compatibility and improve other aspects like hardware standards.  Due to lack of hardware standards, people resort to programming at the API level which definitely slows down the software and then again how many people nowadays actually learn to program at the system level or even know the system they are programming.  Even the USB issue being discussed would be better if there was a hardware standard for it rather than using device drivers.
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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #78 on: June 10, 2008, 12:53:46 AM »

>Actually 2 data lines... each line is a twisted pair + and -, this elmiates noise in the signal of the link.

No 4 data lines.  There are two usb ports that I hooked up from a set of PINS on my motherboard to the front.

>You really don't actually know anything of modern systems do you?!?!?

Keep your speculations to yourself.  If you read anything I wrote in this thread, you would not ask.

>So why are we not using your system, and instead using the horrible bloated USB?

Because of lack of hardware standard.

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #79 on: June 10, 2008, 12:56:17 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>Name me one modern interface that is parallel? I have a long list of interfaces... your turn now.

All my PCs use parallel transfers from CPU to RAM, level 1 cache to the CPU, PCI bus to RAM, etc.  My own project of floppy simulation REQUIRES parallel signals being modified in real-time.


Ok, over distances of 1um a Parallel bus make sense... you stated the DB9 connector, I don't see chip designs rushing to integrate DB9 connectors on their latest CPUs...

Ok, you have conceded that I'm right and are now just deflecting... at least I can remember what you said to start this discussion... and boy am I drunk now :-D

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>I don't speculate, I trust testable research. Are you 12 years old?

I am going to PROVE that you are speculating and misleading others who believe you.  I am not stating the research is wrong but YOUR understanding of the research is wrong because perhaps you have not yourself actually done it.  see below.

>My iPhone is LCD based yet in the summer light the display is as clear as a peice of coloured paper... amazing to see actually!

Again switching between PC, Mac, and now iPhone.  We are comparing your PC w/LCD w/quad core or 1000-core to an Amiga.  All the LCDs I have tried in the outdoors give a poorer picture than a TV.


Well you talked about LCD devices... so I mentioned one that I have that works really well on an English summer day... My MacBook Pro is perfectly visible in broad day light too, but my iPhone looks the best, as it is the newest LCD I own...

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>>    Before I waste time writing you code that uses 3.57Mhz timing accuracy, are you claiming that the PC timer is more accurate than the Amiga timer? (just yes or no).

>Yes. Simple really.

Okay, I will PROVE you are wrong here as I already have done in another thread.  I will post the code-- which do you prefer 6502 (Atari) or 68000 (Amiga)?  Whichever is easier for you to understand.


I honestly don't care... the it's an irrelevant issue... I can do stuff in realtime on my MacBook Pro that I can only dream of on my Amiga... so what the F**K does it matter?

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #80 on: June 10, 2008, 01:01:32 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:

>Actually 2 data lines... each line is a twisted pair + and -, this elmiates noise in the signal of the link.

No 4 data lines.  There are two usb ports that I hooked up from a set of PINS on my motherboard to the front.


That is not what you said. you said that a USB port has 4 pins. That is true, but they are not simply 4 parallel data lines, they have very specific functions... don't start changing your argument mid discussion.

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>You really don't actually know anything of modern systems do you?!?!?

Keep your speculations to yourself.  If you read anything I wrote in this thread, you would not ask.


You have consistently demonstrated a lack on understanding, I have had to explain very elementary hardware topics with you... I  now understand your limited knowledge.


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>So why are we not using your system, and instead using the horrible bloated USB?

Because of lack of hardware standard.



No, it's because of physics. Please understand that you can't defy the laws of physics...

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2008, 01:06:08 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>The 'modern' PC is a piece of junk. It's designed to be (partially) backwards compatible with systems that no one in their right mind would _ever_ want to actually use. Of course, the PC architecture has changed significantly from the days of AT PCs, probably to the point where very little code from that era would actually run on a brand-new PC.

I think backward compatibility is a good thing, but they can definitely keep the backward compatibility and improve other aspects like hardware standards.  


Perhaps, but it can limit the development of a platform... see how long the A500 remained "current"...

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Due to lack of hardware standards, people resort to programming at the API level which definitely slows down the software and then again how many people nowadays actually learn to program at the system level or even know the system they are programming.  


Really...? So the Macintosh platform which demanded the use of system APIs is still here and the Amiga which permitted the use to Hardware hitting, is now dead... it's clear which was the best idea.

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Even the USB issue being discussed would be better if there was a hardware standard for it rather than using device drivers.


There is a USB Hardware standard it's called EHCI please read up on these topic BEFORE you post... It's your statements like this that make me realise you don't understand the modern world at all.

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #82 on: June 10, 2008, 01:07:34 AM »
>Ok, over distances of 1um a Parallel bus make sense... you stated the DB9 connector, I don't see chip designs rushing to integrate DB9 connectors on their latest CPUs...

It was regarding integrating USB into the DB9 and simulating a dual USB port as well as using 4 digital lines for joysticks not on the cpu level.  That above was an answer to your erroneous claim that parallel interfaces are no longer being used.

>Well you talked about LCD devices... so I mentioned one that I have that works really well on an English summer day... My MacBook Pro is perfectly visible in broad day light too, but my iPhone looks the best, as it is the newest LCD I own...

Read the specs of 19" LCDs and TVs and see the differences for yourself.

>I honestly don't care... the it's an irrelevant issue... I can do stuff in realtime on my MacBook Pro that I can only dream of on my Amiga... so what the F**K does it matter?

Now all of a sudden it's irrelevant!  Every software written that utilizes the higher accurate timing will NOT work on your PC.
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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #83 on: June 10, 2008, 01:11:51 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>Ok, over distances of 1um a Parallel bus make sense... you stated the DB9 connector, I don't see chip designs rushing to integrate DB9 connectors on their latest CPUs...

It was regarding integrating USB into the DB9 and simulating a dual USB port as well as using 4 digital lines for joysticks not on the cpu level.  That above was an answer to your erroneous claim that parallel interfaces are no longer being used.



Two serial interfaces are not the same as a single parallel interface... their mode of operation is very different. Don't be an idiot!!

Quote


>Well you talked about LCD devices... so I mentioned one that I have that works really well on an English summer day... My MacBook Pro is perfectly visible in broad day light too, but my iPhone looks the best, as it is the newest LCD I own...

Read the specs of 19" LCDs and TVs and see the differences for yourself.


I'm well aware of LCD deficiencies, but their advantages put them far ahead of CRTs... my iPhone LCD shows that.

Quote

>I honestly don't care... the it's an irrelevant issue... I can do stuff in realtime on my MacBook Pro that I can only dream of on my Amiga... so what the F**K does it matter?

Now all of a sudden it's irrelevant!  Every software written that utilizes the higher accurate timing will NOT work on your PC.


Go on then, what software won't run on my Mac or my PC...?

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #84 on: June 10, 2008, 01:12:09 AM »
Quote

persia wrote:
And they shall name it "Mac"


The Mac is nice for what it is, but it is fundamental API suffers from exactly the problem I was talking about - it's old. UNIX with or without the Apple facelift and a handful of tacked on features or Windows are the three choices available for Mac users. That's great if that's what you want, and it's certainly one more choice than PC users have, but it doesn't provide the mechanisms I wrote about. Those operating systems, and the software available for them, all require constant behind the scenes tweaking to keep them working. (Try connecting a Mac to the 'net and not running Apple Update; your system will be hosed in a couple of weeks given the rate at which the security updates alone come out.)

This isn't the way it has to be - we're just stuck with it because backwards and proprietary hardware make it next to impossible to implement an operating system without the work of hundreds of people. An open hardware platform without all the bunk baggage PCs drag around with them would allow competition in the OS realm again - something we really need. UNIX is a beast of the 60s and 70s; Windows one of the 80s and 90s. It's coming up on the time for a new paradigm.

This is not really necessary from the home user's point of view, but allow me to scare you with another perspective: my mother has worked in a hospital for 35+ years. She's a senior nurse; it's a part of her job to do things like take blood pressure readings and such, and record them. The computer system they use, a modern, Windows-based network, is so unreliable that often the measurements she is supposed to put on a patient's chart every 15 minutes will take upwards of 20 minutes just to input! Yes, it takes longer to make a chart entry than it the interval between them. There simply are no paper charts anymore - it's all in the computer. Scared yet? You should be.

The point is, our computers systems lack any mechanism for ensuring their reliability. They are so bloated and over-crowded with 'features' that they don't perform the same every time; sometimes they work, sometimes you yell at them. :) It's a fact that it is possible to design reliable software, and it's possible to prove that the software is reliable. Unless, of course, you're using a PC, where even if no one has installed unneeded software, enough came with the thing to make it a complete mess.

It's been to the advantage of the computer companies to keep programmers from being able to make reliable, reusable contributions to the pool of available software because they are in it only for the money, and once you've bought it, if it doesn't work right, they will only make MORE money from the damn tech support contracts!

Government and industry have both been complaining about this for a long time. Eventually something has to give, and I really hope that the solution to this problem is an open hardware platform that is elegant enough in design to empower programmers to do our jobs effectively, efficiently, and with a minimum of error. Computers can do much more than we imagine - the last 10 years have made that blatantly obvious. It's a pity that the one thing they can NOT do is so important.
 

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #85 on: June 10, 2008, 01:13:05 AM »
>That is not what you said. you said that a USB port has 4 pins. That is true, but they are not simply 4 parallel data lines, they have very specific functions... don't start changing your argument mid discussion.

Here I'll quote myself (you can go back and re-read it yourself since I have not edited any of my posts):

"Look, even the USB ports are usually in pairs so you have 4 data lines so if you update the joystick port so that the 4 parallel lines can serve both purposes serial and parallel, it's a superior technology AND backward compatible."

I just PROVED that what people write and what you understand are two different things.

>>Because of lack of hardware standard.

>No, it's because of physics. Please understand that you can't defy the laws of physics...

I am not.  Hardware standards are faster ways to access devices than software APIs.  
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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #86 on: June 10, 2008, 01:17:19 AM »
>Two serial interfaces are not the same as a single parallel interface... their mode of operation is very different. Don't be an idiot!!

You know you can't understand things if you get too emotional as I already stated so.  You don't know that you can program parallel ports already in different modes so that could have been another mode of operation.  Q.E.D.

>Go on then, what software won't run on my Mac or my PC...?

If you are just going to call people names, you can search it on this forum yourself.
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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #87 on: June 10, 2008, 01:20:10 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>That is not what you said. you said that a USB port has 4 pins. That is true, but they are not simply 4 parallel data lines, they have very specific functions... don't start changing your argument mid discussion.

Here I'll quote myself (you can go back and re-read it yourself since I have not edited any of my posts):

"Look, even the USB ports are usually in pairs so you have 4 data lines so if you update the joystick port so that the 4 parallel lines can serve both purposes serial and parallel, it's a superior technology AND backward compatible."


Ok, this argument just got circular... you are refusing to acknowledge what I am trying to tell you... I'll let Alexh or persia or someone else with extensive hardware knowledge explain it to you they might have better luck than me.

No one is using parallel interfaces any more, physics doesn't allow them to run fast enough.

Quote

I just PROVED that what people write and what you understand are two different things.

>>Because of lack of hardware standard.

>No, it's because of physics. Please understand that you can't defy the laws of physics...

I am not.  Hardware standards are faster ways to access devices than software APIs.  


EHCI The software ensure that the hardware is future compatible and used to the best possible advantages.

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #88 on: June 10, 2008, 01:24:45 AM »
Okay, I'll wait for their reply since I don't see why you can't have a dual-USB/joystick port.

>The software ensure that the hardware is future compatible and used to the best possible advantages.

If the hardware was standardized, you don't need an intermediary layer so the best possible useage of hardware occurs then.
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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #89 from previous page: June 10, 2008, 01:35:27 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
Okay, I'll wait for their reply since I don't see why you can't have a dual-USB/joystick port.

maybe they will have better luck
Quote

>The software ensure that the hardware is future compatible and used to the best possible advantages.

If the hardware was standardized, you don't need an intermediary layer so the best possible useage of hardware occurs then.


Because the hardware can be changed and improved and any program that used the software API will still work... But any program that hit the hardware won't work because the hardware has changed... This really is elementary stuff...  :-?