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Author Topic: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s  (Read 17516 times)

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Offline ZeBeeDee

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #59 on: June 09, 2008, 11:07:40 PM »
Please, no more of the "my computer can do this because it uses a dual-core CPU" la-de-da stuff ... It's rather boring  :-)

IMHO, it's up to the end user what place they give their miggy in today's world. On a more personal note, my miggy gets a large chunk of quality time as does my PC (when Vista decides to behave itself).
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #60 on: June 09, 2008, 11:23:27 PM »
>You suggested this with your original statement, that one does not need a 4Ghz machine... Actually, I wouldn't mind one... since the software I use demands more power... fortunately, the designers of my software use parallel processing quite effectively, so my Dual Core meets my needs.

There's your answer-- a modern device using parallel transfers preferred over serial.  Imagine if your data bus to your CPUs was serial.  I have my own uses for simultaneous parallel signal processing but you just answered your own question.

>None... what you are suggesting is 4 serial lines... 4 parallel lines would be 32 wires (if each parallel link as 8bit).

Joystick port has 4 parallel lines not 8, one trigger line, two POT lines, one +5V, and one GND.

>You can't... skew, capacitance and noise limit the maximum speed of a parallel link... Compare PCI-E (serial) vs PCI (parallel)

Look, even the USB ports are usually in pairs so you have 4 data lines so if you update the joystick port so that the 4 parallel lines can serve both purposes serial and parallel, it's a superior technology AND backward compatible.

>SATA
>ADAT
>DVI
>HDMI
>Can you think of any other modern interfaces?

Yeah what you stated in the beginning of this message.  All these serial interfaces would be FASTER if they were in parallel but they are trying to save on wires.

>I have been lucky... I have only ever fried one I/O port and that was a PS/2 port... I learned at that point, never to plug/unplug a connector not designed for hot-swap.

You always hot-plug joystick ports on Amigas and Ataris unless you already had them plugged in and there's no warning that you should connect your joystick before turning on the computer.

>Lucky you! I don't even want to think about the number of times I've bent P-ATA pins... Damn, I hate P-ATA.

How about PATA where each line was at SATA speed.

>I;ve never been called emotional before, many thanks... In act my Ex-Girlfriend called me unemotional, so I'm glad you've proved her wrong

You know most of the lawsuits where each party burns money on lawyers finding fault with the other without getting to the truth.  That's called emotional bias.

>The burden of proof is not upon me... and I'm too drunk to care

I have already tried reading from USB and joystick port and given current bloated APIs and device drivers, one IN AL,DX is always superior even with the faster USB port.

>You what? Overscan is an outdated concept... CRTs are well over 100 years old now... Can we please keep to the thread topic an stay in the 21st century...?

Okay NTSC monitors/TVs are outdated for you but not for me.

>I can easily define 2.4Mhz on my MBP... I doubt I could do the same on the amiga without a serious performance hit... hmmm... I think I would probably have to do some weird polling or something on the Amiga if at all...

You want to give an example where you time something counting 2.4Mhz cycles accurately?
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Offline ZeBeeDee

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #61 on: June 09, 2008, 11:27:25 PM »
Jeez! you turn your back just for 10 seconds ... :egad:
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #62 on: June 09, 2008, 11:41:13 PM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>You suggested this with your original statement, that one does not need a 4Ghz machine... Actually, I wouldn't mind one... since the software I use demands more power... fortunately, the designers of my software use parallel processing quite effectively, so my Dual Core meets my needs.

There's your answer-- a modern device using parallel transfers preferred over serial.  Imagine if your data bus to your CPUs was serial.  I have my own uses for simultaneous parallel signal processing but you just answered your own question.


??? Are you sure you're not high? Imagine if the data bus to my CPU was serial... like in the FB-DIMM architecture used in the VERY POWERFUL 8-core MacPros at the studio I was in a couple of weeks ago?

Quote

>None... what you are suggesting is 4 serial lines... 4 parallel lines would be 32 wires (if each parallel link as 8bit).

Joystick port has 4 parallel lines not 8, one trigger line, two POT lines, one +5V, and one GND.


Ok, then 16 wires... but it is still much easier now to multiplex on a serial line, than to send over parallel lines.

Quote

>You can't... skew, capacitance and noise limit the maximum speed of a parallel link... Compare PCI-E (serial) vs PCI (parallel)

Look, even the USB ports are usually in pairs so you have 4 data lines so if you update the joystick port so that the 4 parallel lines can serve both purposes serial and parallel, it's a superior technology AND backward compatible.


You actually don't understand basic physics of electronics... where the hell did you go to University? I went to UCL (look it up)...

Quote

>SATA
>ADAT
>DVI
>HDMI
>Can you think of any other modern interfaces?

Yeah what you stated in the beginning of this message.  All these serial interfaces would be FASTER if they were in parallel but they are trying to save on wires.


They can't run in parallel... at high speeds you can't sync parallel lines... ok I realise now that your knowledge is deficient... go and Google Serial vs parallel see WHY high speed links are serial...

Quote

>I have been lucky... I have only ever fried one I/O port and that was a PS/2 port... I learned at that point, never to plug/unplug a connector not designed for hot-swap.

You always hot-plug joystick ports on Amigas and Ataris unless you already had them plugged in and there's no warning that you should connect your joystick before turning on the computer.


Good luck with that... even Commodore manuals states clearly: no hot swapping.

Quote

>Lucky you! I don't even want to think about the number of times I've bent P-ATA pins... Damn, I hate P-ATA.

How about PATA where each line was at SATA speed.


PATA can't reach SATA speeds... the technical problems are too great... you actually don't know what noise, skew and capacitance mean do you... go on tell me... I dare you!!! :-D

Quote

>I;ve never been called emotional before, many thanks... In act my Ex-Girlfriend called me unemotional, so I'm glad you've proved her wrong

You know most of the lawsuits where each party burns money on lawyers finding fault with the other without getting to the truth.  That's called emotional bias.


???

Quote

>The burden of proof is not upon me... and I'm too drunk to care

I have already tried reading from USB and joystick port and given current bloated APIs and device drivers, one IN AL,DX is always superior even with the faster USB port.


Your technical inability is not the topic here. We are taking about the value of Amiga Hardware in the 21st century...

Quote

>You what? Overscan is an outdated concept... CRTs are well over 100 years old now... Can we please keep to the thread topic an stay in the 21st century...?

Okay NTSC monitors/TVs are outdated for you but not for me.


Oh... So you are the industry now... Lets forget about LCDs and all buy CRTs!!!!

Quote

>I can easily define 2.4Mhz on my MBP... I doubt I could do the same on the amiga without a serious performance hit... hmmm... I think I would probably have to do some weird polling or something on the Amiga if at all...

You want to give an example where you time something counting 2.4Mhz cycles accurately?


Err... care to give me an example of a timer as accurate at 1Mhz on the Amiga?

Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #63 on: June 09, 2008, 11:48:40 PM »
> Are you sure you're not high? Imagine if the data bus to my CPU was serial... like in the

Intel PCs use data buses for parallel transfers and your example was a PC not a MAC.  Don't change your mind now.  Your "???" and "!!!" already shows you did not properly read the msg.

>go and Google Serial vs parallel see WHY high speed links are serial...

I don't google around; I try it myself.  You rely on people's opinions and facts and mix them up.

>>    Okay NTSC monitors/TVs are outdated for you but not for me.

>Oh... So you are the industry now... Lets forget about LCDs and all buy CRTs!!!!

Read again; is that what I said?  LCDs have not completely replaced NTSC/PAL monitors/tvs.  

>>   You want to give an example where you time something counting 2.4Mhz cycles accurately?

>Err... care to give me an example of a timer as accurate at 1Mhz on the Amiga?

You are suppose to prove that PC has a more accurate timer.  You can time things using a copper to a 3.57Mhz timing accuracy. As I told you before, one EOI on a PC will drop your timing quantum to below 1 Mhz.
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Offline sdyates

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #64 on: June 09, 2008, 11:54:04 PM »
Quote

Tenacious wrote:
What an awful picture.  How about this:

Amiga = a pretty, intelligent girl tastefully dressed.


Yesm well I would agree, but say that this would be the amiga in her early days... Someone said something about a MILF for her today... true with the exception, there is not a lot of action so maybe MIL is more accurate than MILF...
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #65 on: June 09, 2008, 11:55:21 PM »
>Good luck with that... even Commodore manuals states clearly: no hot swapping.

My Atari and Amiga manuals don't mention it, but regardless I always hot swap and it never harmed any of machines.

>PATA can't reach SATA speeds... the technical problems are too great... you actually don't know what noise, skew and capacitance mean do you... go on tell me... I dare you!!!

Assuming I did not know, the logic still follows.  You have 4 data lines in 2 USB ports which can exist within a joystick port.

>Your technical inability is not the topic here. We are taking about the value of Amiga Hardware in the 21st century...

Labeling someone with "inability" does not disprove the fact that one IN instruction or LDA instruction in 6502 is faster than a series of instructions to read a USB port.  Simple deduction.
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2008, 12:01:01 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
> Are you sure you're not high? Imagine if the data bus to my CPU was serial... like in the

Intel PCs use data buses for parallel transfers and your example was a PC not a MAC.  Don't change your mind now.  Your "???" and "!!!" already shows you did not properly read the msg.


It really doesn't matter if I talk about PC or a mac, the hardware is the same... My main machine is a MacBook Pro...

Ok... My Athon64 system uses Hyper-Transport... a serial link.

The MacPros where I work use FB-DIMMs which use a serial bus... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fully_Buffered_DIMM - the use of a serial bus was due to the degradation of a parallel signal at high speeds... You are either stupid or arrogant, either way, I'm find you rather funny...

Quote

>go and Google Serial vs parallel see WHY high speed links are serial...

I don't google around; I try it myself.  You rely on people's opinions and facts and mix them up.


Oh, right... University of life... gotcha... ;-) Try reading a book sometime. I prefer to read the latest research papers (my Chemistry education allows me to understand rather advanced concepts) and find out what's going on in the REAL WORLD...

Quote

>>    Okay NTSC monitors/TVs are outdated for you but not for me.

>Oh... So you are the industry now... Lets forget about LCDs and all buy CRTs!!!!

Read again; is that what I said?  LCDs have not completely replaced NTSC/PAL monitors/tvs.  


Tell me one reason why any person would by an NTSC/PAL CRT over an LCD device now?

Quote

>>   You want to give an example where you time something counting 2.4Mhz cycles accurately?

>Err... care to give me an example of a timer as accurate at 1Mhz on the Amiga?

You are suppose to prove that PC has a more accurate timer.  You can time things using a copper to a 3.57Mhz timing accuracy. As I told you before, one EOI on a PC will drop your timing quantum to below 1 Mhz.


Well Stop avoiding my question, and we can talk...

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2008, 12:06:21 AM »
>It really doesn't matter if I talk about PC or a mac, the hardware is the same... My main machine is a MacBook Pro...

Sure it does, perhaps the Mac has other deficiencies when compared to Amiga than when you compare your PC to amiga.  But fact remains, parallel transfers are being used in the modern era.

>Try reading a book sometime. I prefer to read the latest research papers (my Chemistry education allows me to understand rather advanced concepts) and find out what's going on in the REAL WORLD...

I actually GO AND SEE it in the REAL WORLD after reading the books instead of speculating on what the paper is stating.

>Tell me one reason why any person would by an NTSC/PAL CRT over an LCD device now?

Higher contrast ratio.  To match colors with broadcast signal.  I remember showing a demo in outdoors and you can't see anything on the LCD but the TV looked okay.

>Well Stop avoiding my question, and we can talk...

Before I waste time writing you code that uses 3.57Mhz timing accuracy, are you claiming that the PC timer is more accurate than the Amiga timer? (just yes or no).
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Offline bloodline

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2008, 12:06:58 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>Good luck with that... even Commodore manuals states clearly: no hot swapping.

My Atari and Amiga manuals don't mention it, but regardless I always hot swap and it never harmed any of machines.


By luck, not by design... Amiga/Atari joy sticks tend to be passive devices so potential difference tents to be low... anything more complex (i.e. PS/2) would cause problems.

Quote

>PATA can't reach SATA speeds... the technical problems are too great... you actually don't know what noise, skew and capacitance mean do you... go on tell me... I dare you!!!

Assuming I did not know, the logic still follows.  You have 4 data lines in 2 USB ports which can exist within a joystick port.


It's totally different. Why would you use two USB lines?!?!? Simple slect USB-Highspeed if you need the bandwidth... or preferably use Firewire...

Quote

>Your technical inability is not the topic here. We are taking about the value of Amiga Hardware in the 21st century...

Labeling someone with "inability" does not disprove the fact that one IN instruction or LDA instruction in 6502 is faster than a series of instructions to read a USB port.  Simple deduction.


We are talking about the 21st century!!! The topic of this thread!

And it's might be easier, but it's not faster... otherwise we would still have 6502s in every PC running old parallel links...

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2008, 12:10:58 AM »
Quote

amigaksi wrote:
>It really doesn't matter if I talk about PC or a mac, the hardware is the same... My main machine is a MacBook Pro...

Sure it does, perhaps the Mac has other deficiencies when compared to Amiga than when you compare your PC to amiga.  But fact remains, parallel transfers are being used in the modern era.


Name me one modern interface that is parallel? I have a long list of interfaces... your turn now.

Quote

>Try reading a book sometime. I prefer to read the latest research papers (my Chemistry education allows me to understand rather advanced concepts) and find out what's going on in the REAL WORLD...

I actually GO AND SEE it in the REAL WORLD after reading the books instead of speculating on what the paper is stating.


I don't speculate, I trust testable research. Are you 12 years old?

Quote

>Tell me one reason why any person would by an NTSC/PAL CRT over an LCD device now?

Higher contrast ratio.  To match colors with broadcast signal.  I remember showing a demo in outdoors and you can't see anything on the LCD but the TV looked okay.


My iPhone is LCD based yet in the summer light the display is as clear as a peice of coloured paper... amazing to see actually!

Quote

>Well Stop avoiding my question, and we can talk...

Before I waste time writing you code that uses 3.57Mhz timing accuracy, are you claiming that the PC timer is more accurate than the Amiga timer? (just yes or no).


Yes. Simple really.

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2008, 12:11:56 AM »
Having reflected on this thread for a while, I think I'm going to gently shove at it to see if I can't get it to move in a different direction. So, apologies in advance for the hijacking. :)

I think the Amiga definitely has a place in the modern world: to remind us of the poor quality of modern computers. It's certainly not alone in that place, either, but it's a good example, nonetheless.

The 'modern' PC is a piece of junk. It's designed to be (partially) backwards compatible with systems that no one in their right mind would _ever_ want to actually use. Of course, the PC architecture has changed significantly from the days of AT PCs, probably to the point where very little code from that era would actually run on a brand-new PC.

However, the staying power of the x86 platform is largely based on this idea that a PC built today should work with junky old code from 5 years ago. This, imho, is also the reason why PCs are garbage. It's not the cost cutting, the commodity grade components, no! It's the fact that there hasn't been a significant break from the design flaws of PCs built to be compatible with older flawed PCs, which in turn were compatible with even older junk boxes, and so on.

We need to just toss the PC platform into the waste bin, and move on. I don't mean we should ignore what we've learned as we went along, in fact, quite the opposite. As a society we are in _desperate_ need of reliable computers that can be programmed to do their jobs without it taking man-years of time to make it happen.

I was re-reading John Backus's seminal paper (from the Communications of the ACM, August 1978) the other day, and it occurred to me that as much as we need to break away from the von Neumann style of programming to accomplish this goal, we also need to a modern computer system built from the ground up in a style that discourages things symptomatic of the root problem that causes our systems to be unreliable.

Among these I would list code bloat in general, multi-megabyte device drivers, APIs that not only include the kitchen sink but many different implementations of one, and the lack of any mechanism for actually sharing libraries that aren't part of the basic functionality of the system. [I'm not talking about the technological capacity to link to them here; I mean the ability to actually derive income from the distribution of library code in a way that protects those of use who write it. Of late, I've been dreaming about an iTunes Store-like apparatus for selling software. I don't know that that would work, but it might just be worth a try.]

Obviously, the Amiga never solved all of these problems; nor have any of the other 'cool' systems that have come and gone. But if we look back at them with nostalgia now, it's because their design, and the philosophy of design that went with them, is relevant to our every day, 'modern', experiences with technology.

It's about time some of us took the lessons that can be learned from systems like the Amiga, and made the effort to build a computer that is beautiful, functional, and not hampered by the ridiculous assumption that someone really wants to run off the shelf software from a half decade ago or more. [As far as I can tell, the only software that fits _that_ description is the AmigaOS and a few other bits of technology that have similarly painted themselves into corners.]
 

Offline persia

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2008, 12:31:18 AM »
Yeah, especially wihen my machine sports a couple of quad core xeons...





Quote

ZeBeeDee wrote:
Please, no more of the "my computer can do this because it uses a dual-core CPU" la-de-da stuff ... It's rather boring  :-)

IMHO, it's up to the end user what place they give their miggy in today's world. On a more personal note, my miggy gets a large chunk of quality time as does my PC (when Vista decides to behave itself).
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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #72 on: June 10, 2008, 12:33:35 AM »
>By luck, not by design...

There's no such thing as luck as you already tried to use logic to explain it.

>It's totally different. Why would you use two USB lines?!?!? Simple slect USB-Highspeed if you need the bandwidth... or preferably use Firewire...

I hooked up the USB myself to my PC and there are four data lines so all I stated was someone could have incorporated that within the joystick port and maintained compatibility.

>We are talking about the 21st century!!! The topic of this thread!

Yeah, so am I.  One MOVE.B, (IN AL,DX), LDA is faster than multiple of them.  And if the joystick port was updated to PCI bus, it would run faster than USB even at the hardware level avoiding all bloated APIs.

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Offline persia

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #73 on: June 10, 2008, 12:34:57 AM »
And they shall name it "Mac"





Quote

pkillo wrote:
It's about time some of us took the lessons that can be learned from systems like the Amiga, and made the effort to build a computer that is beautiful, functional, and not hampered by the ridiculous assumption that someone really wants to run off the shelf software from a half decade ago or more. [As far as I can tell, the only software that fits _that_ description is the AmigaOS and a few other bits of technology that have similarly painted themselves into corners.]
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Offline amigaksi

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Re: Amiga's place in the modern computing world - 00s
« Reply #74 from previous page: June 10, 2008, 12:40:25 AM »
>Name me one modern interface that is parallel? I have a long list of interfaces... your turn now.

All my PCs use parallel transfers from CPU to RAM, level 1 cache to the CPU, PCI bus to RAM, etc.  My own project of floppy simulation REQUIRES parallel signals being modified in real-time.

>I don't speculate, I trust testable research. Are you 12 years old?

I am going to PROVE that you are speculating and misleading others who believe you.  I am not stating the research is wrong but YOUR understanding of the research is wrong because perhaps you have not yourself actually done it.  see below.

>My iPhone is LCD based yet in the summer light the display is as clear as a peice of coloured paper... amazing to see actually!

Again switching between PC, Mac, and now iPhone.  We are comparing your PC w/LCD w/quad core or 1000-core to an Amiga.  All the LCDs I have tried in the outdoors give a poorer picture than a TV.

>>    Before I waste time writing you code that uses 3.57Mhz timing accuracy, are you claiming that the PC timer is more accurate than the Amiga timer? (just yes or no).

>Yes. Simple really.

Okay, I will PROVE you are wrong here as I already have done in another thread.  I will post the code-- which do you prefer 6502 (Atari) or 68000 (Amiga)?  Whichever is easier for you to understand.
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