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Author Topic: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?  (Read 30726 times)

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Offline Nautilus

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Re: Easiness
« Reply #89 on: April 27, 2008, 05:32:01 PM »
Emulation is cool, but without the "real thing" there is not that feeling of refreshing tranquility and an absence of tension or worry when you turn on the computer. There is nothing like using a real Amiga1200 or a real MSX2.
 

Offline AmigaHope

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #90 on: April 28, 2008, 07:44:45 AM »
Quote

http://www.troubled-mind.com/output.mp4

and...?
The clip on that link shows *exactly* the kind of jerky scrolling I'm talking about. =/ If you watch it you'll notice that the scrolling is not as silky smooth as on a real Amiga.

To see why this is the case, play it back frame-by frame while the player is running past the trees. Advance one frame at a time and you'll see that every 6th frame is a repeat (i.e. it will scroll for 5 frames, and then the 6th will have no motion at all).
 

Offline Krusher

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #91 on: April 28, 2008, 08:04:15 AM »
Quote

AmigaHope wrote:
Quote

http://www.troubled-mind.com/output.mp4

and...?
The clip on that link shows *exactly* the kind of jerky scrolling I'm talking about. =/ If you watch it you'll notice that the scrolling is not as silky smooth as on a real Amiga...


I fail to see jerkyness *shrug*

Perhaps I'm one of the lucky few who can't see it. Then again, fluorescent light bulbs annoy the heck out of me and CRT monitors below 72hz always flicker to me.
 

Offline Damion

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #92 on: April 28, 2008, 09:24:52 AM »
Hmmm, the jerking is obvious to my eyes, just watch the trees. Maybe it would appear smoother on a CRT... :shrug:

Anyway.. 50Hz/50 FPS WinUAE setting on a 60Hz LCD will look far less smooth than the "real thing", but truthfully very few people notice or care.

About running WinUAE in NTSC mode -- many games (and almost all demos) are fuXor3d that way. If you're super picky, I'd run a CRT @ 50 or 100Hz (like TBL recommend for watching their demos on emulation, IIRC).

 

Offline monami

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #93 on: April 28, 2008, 09:56:54 AM »
they are both useful tools. what you can't do on amiga you can do on your amiga/pc! i was annoyed at how incompatible an a1200 can be till whdload but then i tried alot of games. where as some people may have not. 1/1 graphics on breathless are glitchy on my 40/28 2/2 are fine so i may go for pc emulation of that game. when i find an involving game i forget what i am using. any other high end amiga games may be the same.
i just downloaded amigasys and it was pretty dam good. i finally got to use an amiga browser on the web. although i was disapointed it didn't like some things webwise... i may not use it again. as i'd worry about safety and it runs a little slow on an 800mhz machine. (come on new lappy!) but it's always there.
i strangely would like to use an amiga for audio sequencing. a long term dream. and some writing. i feel more productive in front of it! where as at my pc's i sometimes think "oh i can't be bothered." i don't think a even modern pc can emulate high end audio sequencing effectively so i would need new hardware for that. (come on new hardware! 8-))
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Offline coldfish

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #94 on: April 28, 2008, 10:24:13 AM »
UAE4all on GP2X = sublime.

Handheld Amiga Fun!

IMO, "better" than the real thing.
 

Offline foleyjo

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #95 on: April 28, 2008, 11:59:25 AM »
Quote

coldfish wrote:
UAE4all on GP2X = sublime.

Handheld Amiga Fun!

IMO, "better" than the real thing.


Even though its not compatable with every game, it isnt 100% full speed, EHB and Ham modes are not supported and the gp2x batteries can run out while halfway through a game without warning?????

Its good but its not better
 

Offline persia

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #96 on: April 28, 2008, 12:09:42 PM »
Amiga graphics are very simple compared with 21st Century graphics.  We're all used to staring at much higher resolution with a lot of refinement.  To the collector or history buff that refinement isn't the same.  It's like using a bus to look like an old trolley car, the suspension is too smooth, the windows too air tight, the ride too quiet.  It's too modern comfortable.  That's why the computer collectors/historians  complain about emulation, it's just too refined to be real.

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Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #97 on: April 28, 2008, 11:58:44 PM »
@persia

"Collectors/historians" may recognize themselves in your comparison, but as far as the animation problem is concerned, I think that your comment is irrelevant.

It would be relevant if it was a question of subjectivity, but it's not : the animation problem is an objective technical incompatibility.

It would be relevant too if it was about an incidental detail, for example the look and feel of a real Amiga being missing in Amiga emulators.  But it's not : animation is one of the principal qualities of the Amiga, so that it is an essential quality of numerous games (and demos).  Without normal animation, numerous games' (and demos) aesthetics are hidden : it's like condemning any music masterpiece to arbitrary chaotic rythmics.  As a result, not only is the best works' aesthetic identity lost, but the work of art itself is harmed in such a process, and - in my opinion - destroyed.

So, as far as 2D animation is concerned, your judgement is not true : the emulated Amiga is not more refined despite its differences, but less refined.  If it was more refined I would agree with you : but animation is essential, and it is the only reason why I still have to use a real Amiga although I would prefer to use emulators.

Your judgement is not true even if we consider the whole 2D animation on PC and Mac computers : I have never seen any good 2D animation on a PC or Mac, whatever the era and computing power, except a few text scrollings in a few old pirate intros and one - only one ! but there may be more - MS-Dos PC game of the early 90s (I think it was "Magic Pockets" but it must be confirmed), while most Amiga games have perfect animation.  The Amiga is not the only one : some other computers or consoles using video screen modes (hence offering an easy way to synchronize animation with the refresh rate) had perfect animation, especially the Commodore 64 and the Sega Megadrive/Genesis.  The appearance of DirectX could have been the time to make 2D animation easier on a PC, but instead it favoured 3D animation for good, which is another subject.  So as far as 2D animation is concerned, what you call refinement is in fact both technical and aesthetic regression, since the PC and Mac have won the game although 2D animation has always been neglected on these systems.  

In addition, your point of view seems to confuse technology and aesthetics.  If you think that refinement is just a matter of technology, I'm afraid it is nobody's business but yours.  But I know you would not be the only one : in this Lemon64 thread I had a hard time trying to introduce some (strongly studied but obviously unorthodox) musical point of view on a computer forum among numerous people sharing a similar confusion that made them very touchy, which I didn't expect at all.

In conclusion, as for me even the mouse pointer's motion in emulators is too bad to be bearable, in my experience Amiga emulators are a sad and unrewarding waste as long as this problem stands in the way.  As I am not interested in computers and not knowledgeable in that domain, but passionately fond of some digital works of art (including some Amiga games), I feel a bit frustrated and helpless, especially when knowledgeable people say they don't even notice or care about the problem.
 

Offline kreciu

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #98 on: April 29, 2008, 12:57:55 AM »
Hello, I will just jump for a while.

I use both. "Real" Amiga and UAE emulated Amiga. My real Amiga  is to get the idea how nice system can work on system with "real" simm ram, "slow" 040 ;) and graphic card, and one more think I really enjoy listen to "modules" on Paula :).

BUT...

I really enjoy running Workbench on my iBook :), and play in airplane in Amiga games, you CAN't find more fun stuff!!!

UAE also give me a speeeeeeed, writing, drawing is AMAZING. This what I was dreaming 10 years ego...and basically you can emulate any kind of Amiga which was produced.

I use it with AmiKIT (exceptional set of software!!)+ Rom's from AmigaForever (exceptional compilation of Amiga history!!) and OS3.9 (good old Workbench ;) replaced by Magellan in AmiKIT BTW. I need to register it!).

What is better? BOTH are good. UAE will not give you an idea of "a smell" of Amiga with hundreds "attachments" but also you will not spend for it $1000 ;)

Re-A1200inE/BOX/3.2/AmigaOS3.2/TF1260@66Mhz/256Mb/MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/FDD-HD
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #99 on: April 29, 2008, 01:12:52 AM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:

So, as far as 2D animation is concerned, your judgement is not true : the emulated Amiga is not more refined despite its differences, but less refined.  If it was more refined I would agree with you : but animation is essential, and it is the only reason why I still have to use a real Amiga although I would prefer to use emulators.


You speak such rubbish! I promise you that if you ever come to London, I can show you Perfect Amiga emulation on my MacBook Pro using WinUAE on WindowsXP SP2. I will use WinUAE as it's better than E-UAE.

I will gladly meet you and show you.

Offline kreciu

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #100 on: April 29, 2008, 01:24:25 AM »
Quote

persia wrote:
Amiga graphics are very simple compared with 21st Century graphics.  We're all used to staring at much higher resolution with a lot of refinement.  To the collector or history buff that refinement isn't the same.  It's like using a bus to look like an old trolley car, the suspension is too smooth, the windows too air tight, the ride too quiet.  It's too modern comfortable.  That's why the computer collectors/historians  complain about emulation, it's just too refined to be real.



Heh, this is somehow true. Runnuning Amiga games on 20" LCD look's "bad" but when you get the idea of "game" you will forget.

Today games are not different form old one, "just" ;) a graphic is better...I mean IDEA of playing is the same...
Re-A1200inE/BOX/3.2/AmigaOS3.2/TF1260@66Mhz/256Mb/MediatorTX/R9200SE/SpiderUSB/LAN/SB128/16Gb-CF/DVD-ROM/FDD-HD
 

Offline arkpandora

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #101 on: April 29, 2008, 01:44:13 AM »
@bloodline

It's not because somebody's wrong that he speaks rubbish.

Of course it's possible that I am wrong : I still have to double-check all E-UAE settings following your advice, and I still have to see WinUAE on a brand new PC.

If you get perfect animation, why did you post this : http://www.troubled-mind.com/output.mp4 ?
 

Offline coldfish

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #102 on: April 29, 2008, 07:55:02 AM »
@foleyjo,

re:GP2X + UAE4all.

You have actually tried it, right?

btw;
- Loads of games work, the list grows with each update.
- Give me a handful of worthwhile games that use EHB and HAM as a crucial part of gameplay (not just title/loading screens)?
- Battery issue is way overstated, anyone with a good set of NiMH and a bit of mechanical sympathy is fine.

Even with these things you've mentioned, its very good having a hand held A500, not to mention Snes, MD, C64...

 :-P
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #103 on: April 29, 2008, 09:31:08 AM »
Quote

arkpandora wrote:
@bloodline

It's not because somebody's wrong that he speaks rubbish.

That is correct.

But it is rubbish when one speaks with authority on a subject about which they have no evidence to support.

You cannot state as fact your opinion.

Quote

Of course it's possible that I am wrong : I still have to double-check all E-UAE settings following your advice, and I still have to see WinUAE on a brand new PC.

WinUAE will provide the most accurate emulation. If you require configuration files I will gladly provide them.
Quote

If you get perfect animation, why did you post this : http://www.troubled-mind.com/output.mp4 ?


That video is 50fps upsampled to 60fps using Apples H.264 encoder. I don't care if I'm right or wrong, I just want the truth and will happily provide the evidence I used to support my position.

Offline Damion

Re: Is Amiga Emulation better than the real thing?
« Reply #104 from previous page: April 29, 2008, 09:41:33 AM »
Quote

In addition, your point of view seems to confuse technology and aesthetics. If you think that refinement is just a matter of technology, I'm afraid it is nobody's business but yours. But I know you would not be the only one : in this Lemon64 thread I had a hard time trying to introduce some (strongly studied but obviously unorthodox) musical point of view on a computer forum among numerous people sharing a similar confusion that made them very touchy, which I didn't expect at all.


Yikes. I think some of those guys need to get out more. Is there anything more retarded than acting like that over c64 music...? LOL. (FWIW, I own an unopened copy of PSI-5, it's a classic IMHO and one of my favorites -- nothing wrong with thinking the music is great, it absolutey is!) And what's up with the guy trying to equate rock with classical music?? Just because some rock guitarists borrow (or loop) some baroque "riffs" hardly makes them identical. :/

Anyway, sorry to get off topic. I still maintain that (as someone put quite well earlier in the thread) the issue is largely subjective, some have eyes that are simply less sensitive than others. To mine, WinUAE set for PAL/50 FPS displayed at 60Hz absolutely does not look perfect, and smearing of some LCDs can amplify the effect even more. There are ways of getting WinUAE very close, running everything at 60 FPS (for LCDs) is not acceptable though (IMO). Just try running "Desert Dream" at those settings...

edit-- Just to clarify (my apologies if I'm sounding repetitive), WinUAE, running demos @ 50 or 100Hz on a CRT, in some cases does look nearly perfect to me. :-)