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Author Topic: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???  (Read 85300 times)

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Offline kolla

Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #224 from previous page: October 12, 2012, 11:38:42 PM »
Piracy didn't kill Amiga, open source did, Or rather the developers who refused to face reality of open source, they pretty much killed this platform.
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #225 on: October 12, 2012, 11:41:46 PM »
Quote from: desiv;711161
That is an emulation layer...
One that runs "just in time," but an emulation layer nontheless.


Nope, emulation is when you use software to mimic hardware. UAE does that, but it's not what the JIT in MorphOS does. There is no "layer" sitting in between the Amiga applications and the OS/HW, it's all native.

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Offline desiv

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #226 on: October 12, 2012, 11:44:23 PM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;711196
Nope, emulation is when you use software to mimic hardware.

Yes, and that's how they get those 68k commands to run...  In software..

desiv
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #227 on: October 12, 2012, 11:58:23 PM »
Quote from: desiv;711197
Yes, and that's how they get those 68k commands to run...  In software..


Nope, the 68k binaries are changed into PPC binaries. This does not involve emulation. Nothing is being run "in software", it's all native.
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Offline desiv

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #228 on: October 13, 2012, 12:03:54 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;711202
Nope, the 68k binaries are changed into PPC binaries. This does not involve emulation. Nothing is being run "in software", it's all native.

But that's not how you'd run Shadow of the Beast??
When an app makes a 68k call that doesn't have a PPC equivalent, you have to do that in software...

And if they are "changed" on the fly, then that changing is in software...

And..

aarrghhh!!!!

You got me...

Off topic!!!  Dang it..  
I'm so weak... ;-(

desiv
p.s.  Someone needs to update this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_JIT if there's no emulation in MorphOS.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 12:06:09 AM by desiv »
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Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #229 on: October 13, 2012, 12:25:36 AM »
@desiv

Translator != Emulator. Trance translates 68k code into PPC code, it's not software that mimics hardware. Translating isn't emulating, two different concepts really.

A 680x0 CPU *emulator* on the other hand would be a program (written in PPC in this case) trying to simulate a physical 68k CPU as close as possible, and it is boxed within this emulator you would run your Amiga 68k programs, and you run them as unchanged 68k binaries, since this "virtual 68k CPU" emulator is in place to run them. In this case you would *actually have* SW to mimic HW. As the 68k code is running, it affects the Program Counter of this "virtual CPU", as well as the available registers, and stack, etc, because it's a CPU (emulated in SW) with all its features and functionality, and thanks to that, it can handle the 68k binaries unchanged the whole time, no need for translation anywhere in the process when a "real CPU" is there by emulation. Then add emulation for the other chips found in a physical Amiga, and you get UAE.

But this is not what Trance does, it does not emulate a 68k CPU, it translates 68k binaries into PPC binaries, which then runs natively without any need for emulation layers.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 01:05:28 AM by takemehomegrandma »
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Offline danbeaver

Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #230 on: October 13, 2012, 03:47:00 AM »
OK, not the real topic, but how do the Amiga programs written for an Agnus, Denise, and Paula run on a MorphOS system (which is APPLE hardware) without an Agnus, Denise, or Paula (let's ignore Gary, Ramsey, etc. for now)?

Wikipedia says, "Emulation addresses the original hardware and software environment of the digital object, and recreates it on a current machine."

This describes MorphOS, AROS, UAE and any software that pretends, imitates, or in any other fashion, lies to you saying it is an Amiga when it is not.  MorphOS does not "eat" Apple hardware and a bit later "crap" out the Amiga custom chip set; it only recreates an Amiga-like environment (and poorly since there is MorphOS software that will not run on an Amiga).
 

Offline A1260

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #231 on: October 13, 2012, 04:09:51 AM »
This has gone to 3 pages already... So crack it and be done with it....
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 04:12:07 AM by A1260 »
 

Offline LoadWB

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #232 on: October 13, 2012, 04:26:10 AM »
Quote from: takemehomegrandma;711158
Actually, there is nothing "just like AROS" about the way MorphOS runs 68k Amiga programs, and there is certainly no "emulation layer". MorphOS has a 68k to PPC JIT, but beyond that it's all native, and the Amiga programs runs happily directly on the operating system, in the same memory space as PPC compiled programs, using the same sheduler, the same resources, the same signalling system etc! :)

AROS on the other hand uses UAE which emulates Amiga HW, and every Amiga program runs inside its own emulated "sandbox".

A huge difference actually!

;)


And there ya go. hehehe My point, more or less, was the it is not emulation in the sense that it's accused of being.  But it definitely doesn't hurt to have this information visible.
 

Offline takemehomegrandma

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #233 on: October 13, 2012, 12:37:19 PM »
Quote from: danbeaver;711229
OK, not the real topic, but how do the Amiga programs written for an Agnus, Denise, and Paula run on a MorphOS system (which is APPLE hardware) without an Agnus, Denise, or Paula (let's ignore Gary, Ramsey, etc. for now)?  


Programs that explicitly needs those chips present (for "HW banging" instead of using Amiga OS API's in the proper way) will indeed need an emulator, and you can download UAE for those (mostly) games. You can easily set it up so that UAE is transparently started when you double-click the game/app icon. But practically all applications that followed the correct, formal guidelines from Commodore and using OS calls instead, will work fully native, side by side with programs compiled directly for MorphOS, in the same memory space, sharing the same sheduler, the same system resources (both HW/SW/OS), etc. No difference from a real Amiga, no emulation layer in between. And this actually goes for most Amiga applications you would want to use today.

Quote
Wikipedia says, "Emulation addresses the original hardware and software environment of the digital object, and recreates it on a current machine."


True, a C64 emulator that only emulates the HW wouldn't be much fun, would it? The HW is the vessel, the SW the soul. Without it, you would only have a bunch of useless "silicon", that you can't even look at or use as a door stop, since it's all "virtual". So the "ROM" is needed as well. In many emulators of consoles, you only need one ROM file that includes the game and everything. On UAE you need the Kickstart ROM for the system, and a separate ADF "ROM" for the SW. But this is emulation we are talking about now, which is not how MorphOS usually runs Amiga SW.

Quote
This describes MorphOS
No.

Quote
AROS
Only partly, when trying to run 68k apps on x86 HW, since AROS uses UAE for that.

Quote
UAE
True. UAE is an emulator.

Quote
and any software that pretends, imitates, or in any other fashion, lies to you saying it is an Amiga when it is not.


MorphOS provides a fully native Amiga API environment, and all programs runs natively on that. Programs are not normally (unless using UAE) run on an emulator, not if you don't want to. UAE isn't even included on MorphOS, since it's not needed. It's all native. On an emulator, you first start up a program (running on top of the native OS) that creates a little "box" consisting of a necessary HW/SW environment, and it is this program that then "executes" the game/program inside that box, taking care of HW calls, OS calls, all SW, etc, etc. This is emulation, and this is absolutely not how MorphOS runs Amiga apps. They are run directly/natively on the OS, no emulation layer in between, they are not executed within some "emulator program".

Quote
it only recreates an Amiga-like environment


It provides a full Amiga environment, fully native, on HW that isn't Amiga HW (thus doesn't have the Amiga custom chips).

Quote
(and poorly since there is MorphOS software that will not run on an Amiga).


MorphOS SW compiled as 68k that won't run on an Amiga probably uses features that MorphOS has that Amiga OS simply doesn't have. There has been a lot of evolution in MorphOS as well, backwards compatibility has been prioritized, but MorphOS is so much more than that. MorphOS has gone quite far beyond the point where Amiga OS stopped. It has stuff that Amiga OS never had. An A500 with WB1.2 can't run all OS3.1 apps. It's quite natural...

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Offline itix

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #234 on: October 13, 2012, 01:25:05 PM »
Quote from: desiv;711204
But that's not how you'd run Shadow of the Beast??
When an app makes a 68k call that doesn't have a PPC equivalent, you have to do that in software...

And if they are "changed" on the fly, then that changing is in software...


If you want to run Shadow of the Beast you need an emulator to emulate custom chips. To execute 68k code you dont need an emulator. I.e. there is no more emulation involved than when you execute Java apps on your machine.

Quote

p.s.  Someone needs to update this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_JIT if there's no emulation in MorphOS.


Calling Trance JIT is an emulator is also correct but one could also consider it as a byte code translator.
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Offline itix

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #235 on: October 13, 2012, 01:31:36 PM »
Quote from: danbeaver;711229
OK, not the real topic, but how do the Amiga programs written for an Agnus, Denise, and Paula run on a MorphOS system (which is APPLE hardware) without an Agnus, Denise, or Paula (let's ignore Gary, Ramsey, etc. for now)?

Wikipedia says, "Emulation addresses the original hardware and software environment of the digital object, and recreates it on a current machine."

Quote

This describes MorphOS, AROS, UAE and any software that pretends, imitates, or in any other fashion, lies to you saying it is an Amiga when it is not.  MorphOS does not "eat" Apple hardware and a bit later "crap" out the Amiga custom chip set; it only recreates an Amiga-like environment (and poorly since there is MorphOS software that will not run on an Amiga).


I think here is the difference how you and tmhgm see "amiga". To you amiga is hardware, to tmhgm it is software.

Likewise many Amiga games didnt run on my Amiga even when Commodore claimed it was an Amiga and said title was written for Amiga. This is something you can run circles again and again.
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Offline itix

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #236 on: October 13, 2012, 01:37:33 PM »
Quote from: danbeaver;711155

We've all agreed that we use it, are willing to buy it, and to fully use it you need a "Key. But it is not for sale because it has been "abandoned"

So...
I wonder if, we "Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4?" Or perhaps consent to allowing unrestricted access to one of the "keys" floating on the web. If the source code was in the public domain, then issues of use and improvements would be a moot point.


Did anyone ask developers directly? I think Futaura is still around occasionally.

Another solution could be opening a bounty and buy out IBrowse source code to the public.
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Offline kolla

Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #237 on: October 13, 2012, 02:03:05 PM »
How about the Vapor software suite? Is Ollie still around?
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Offline itix

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Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #238 on: October 13, 2012, 03:49:54 PM »
Quote from: kolla;711276
How about the Vapor software suite? Is Ollie still around?


AFAIKVapor software is owned by indenpendent authors sold under same company. To get Voyager open sourced (or at least free key) Zapek should be contacted, I think. Helps if inquiries are not written in traditional Amiga is back to the future style.
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Offline wawrzon

Re: Should we really crack IBrowse 2.4???
« Reply #239 on: October 13, 2012, 05:17:49 PM »
voyager has a nice clean, simple and appealing gui, that on the plus side. but its so buggy underneath, i dont even know if it pays to open its sources. i have recently played a little with aweb, both under aros68k and os3.1 as this is the simplest working browser i know working on  both, and must correct my previous opinion about it. it doesnt look very funky, but considering the circumstances it is quite fast, stable and accurate even under plain amiga chipset. if it was possible to plug in css into it i could become much better usable nowadays.

edit: the problem is, its open source but i dont know where to look for them. likely they are kept hostage by big gun who apparently was the last who worked with it, and rescued it from lost repository or something the like.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2012, 05:20:16 PM by wawrzon »