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Author Topic: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.  (Read 18691 times)

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Offline AeroMan

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #44 on: November 09, 2007, 01:43:55 AM »
Well, I use WinCrap just because I'm an Engineer, and all engineering stuff runs on windows (good stuff: most of then will not ask for something bigger than Win98 )
Unix is really cool, but too complicated. Mac is awesome, but lacks software (still my main choice).
If the main reason for using WinCrap is running games, you have 3 nice alternatives:

 - Wii
 - Playstation 3 (well, PS2 still a good buy)
 - X Box (It's better than Windows..)

If any flavour of Amiga OS get to see the light of the day as a commercial alternative, I will not think twice to change to it, because I think an OS should be fast, small and reliable and easy to use to run my software. Let Windows run in virtual machines to supply my needs for specific software.
I've used virtual PC in my Mac before it went dead, and it was good to run MPLab...
 

Offline little

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #45 on: November 09, 2007, 02:25:43 AM »
Quote

AndrewBell wrote:
You're right, insurgents and terrorist have been around a very long time. And security agencies have been intercepting communications, eavesdropping, using informers and making people disappear since Moses was a boy. Now they use computers, because everyone else is using computers.

Imagine that in 1931 a zeppelin filled with hydrogen and loaded with dynamite hits the empire states building. Would that merit that the goverment taps without any control all telephone lines, telegraphs, teletypes and has a register of all short wave radio radio in the nation? It does not make sense, they would not need to go to such extremes to twart any organization capable of such feat. So, in short, the use by criminals of the new technological advances does not mean the goverment needs to have absolute control over such communication means to twart criminal organizations. BTW, in the times of Moses there were no democracies, so goverment controling every aspect of civilian life was common.


Quote
And security agencies have been making mistakes since Moses was a boy too. Again it's nothing new.

Yet even in the time of Moses when somebodies ineptitude creates a tragedy, they are fired (or even executed) and substituted by people capable of doing the job that no doubt correct the mistakes done by his predecesor. Yet here not only the same people are in charge and the mistakes that caused the tragedy are not addressed, they are given extraordinary powers. That is nothing new I know, but I expected better from nation of the first world.
 

Offline thanos

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #46 on: November 09, 2007, 02:52:00 AM »
Why should anybody accept invasion of privacy?

I personally don't wish anyone was dead.

I admit I don't have any of the right answers, but I am sure that taking away the rights of others isn't reasonable.

@ AndrewBell
"I'd prefer to lose a little privacy, than lose my life to a suicide bomber."

I hope that my home can remain free of violence of that nature.  I believe it is possible because my country has a less aggressive foreign policy than some other nations.
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Offline LoadWB

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #47 on: November 09, 2007, 04:27:37 AM »
As we're really getting off-topic, I do have one thing to say about surveillance in the "post-9/11" world:

ANY time a terrorist plot has been uncovered and a press release made attributing the discovery to PATRIOT or similar ilk, said press release was later retracted and good old-fashioned police work instead given credit.

In other words, the enhanced eavesdropping and surveillance and communications interception put into place since 9/11 has garnered nothing but less control of our privacy.

You know, lesser things have lead to revolutions.
 

Offline weirdami

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« Reply #48 on: November 09, 2007, 04:49:24 AM »
Quote
With Mac OS X hot on its tail


I like eating tail mix. ;-)
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Offline weirdami

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« Reply #49 on: November 09, 2007, 05:03:31 AM »
@darule

Quote
An operating system should be as basic as possible, it's there to serve the programs, not the other way around. Commodore and Apple knew that, back then


I'm wondering if you can really say that about any company "back then", since there wasn't much room to wiggle as far as bells and whistles were concerned. These days, computers have to wow you with screwy flashing lights to click because of the commodity nature of what computers have become. And, the technology is right there to feed the beast. They want you to buy theirs. Even if theirs sucks, if it looks cool, people will buy it over the lame looking one with the logical and efficient design philosophy.

Did you know there is a cereal called "Barbie as the Island Princess"? Yes, really. I saw it at the store a few days ago. I don't know what kind of cereal it is, but boy that pink box is gonna sell millions because it's Barbie. Kids ain't picking a cereal, they're picking Barbie. Just let's see if the parents will actually demand that their little girls eat the cereal even if it tastes gross. ;-)


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Offline coldfish

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Want cheese with your whine?
« Reply #50 on: November 09, 2007, 07:52:02 AM »
M$ abandon Vista? You guys are on crack!  I think you've been using AmigaOS so long, you forget the sheer brute force of a virtual monopoly - which M$ has.

Last I looked, Apple have a <7% share of the OS market, which is just short of inconsequential.  Vista already tops that with 7.91%.  Linux doesnt even make it into whole numbers.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2

Where are the gamers going to go? Mac? Linux? Great, if you like 2D flash style games...

Consoles?  Courtesy of Sony and their botched PS3 launch, M$ have tripled their share in that market in the last 18 months, almost by accident.

Vista, Xbox and M$ are here to stay, get over it.
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: Want cheese with your whine?
« Reply #51 on: November 09, 2007, 09:10:32 AM »
Quote
Last I looked, Apple have a <7% share of the OS market, which is just short of inconsequential.  Vista already tops that with 7.91%.  Linux doesnt even make it into whole numbers.

http://marketshare.hitslink.com/report.aspx?qprid=2

Of course, these numbers are meaningless. They measure OS based on net access to a few specific sites; many computers don't access those sites. It's like saying that OS <...> has an install base of many millions, only to find out the parent company cleverly confuses 'installed OS' with 'sold license'. For regular users, Windows is the biggest, true. Apple comes in second very far behind, also true.

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Where are the gamers going to go? Mac? Linux? Great, if you like 2D flash style games...

Be serious here. Gamers make up a very tiny fragment of the regular users, and then I'm being very generous on what exactly constitutes a 'regular' user. Gamers spend thousands of dollars just to get benchmarks up to meaningless heights, and are prepared to kill more readily in defense of their 'favourite' brand of video card or CPU than Ballmer wishes to kill Google. A genuine 'regular' user just about knows that there is such a thing as a connector for the monitor, and expects the system to work the way he thinks it ought to work.

In addition, you can play 3D stuff equally well on Linux or the Mac, there's no inherent limitation as to why these OS'es would not be suitable for serious gaming. Ageing UT2003 runs perfectly fine on the Linux side of my setup. Doom 3 was released for Linux too, and works just fine. The only reason why these systems aren't used more is because 'the industry' has little experience with OpenGL coding, and that marketing forces (read 'eye candy sells') more or less lock them in with DirectX. If you're a normal user who doesn't get a hard-on for super benchmarks, then there are most certainly very viable alternatives available.

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Consoles?  Courtesy of Sony and their botched PS3 launch, M$ have tripled their share in that market in the last 18 months, almost by accident.

Funny, that. I heard that Nintendo's Wii is giving both these systems a major headache thanks to its innovative controls which offer a MAJOR break from the standard thumb-twitching joypad. My sweetheart---who is a total computer illiterate---actually remembers the Wii because of this, and won't even think about the graphically superior PS3 or Xbox360.

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Vista, Xbox and M$ are here to stay, get over it.

Perhaps.

Anyway, one thing has not been said in this discussion, and most certainly not in the article redrumloa referenced. The problem is not Microsoft. (Not completely, anyway.) The problem is that the majority of the users cannot or will not take the time to operate a computer properly. In other words, taking a few days to learn about system internals, what actually goes on in that thing, what the major threats are, and how to guard against these. To these people, a computer is like any other electrical appliance: turn it on, do with it what you want, turn it off, on to the next job at hand. Microsoft is the only company in the world which faces the horrible problem of dumbing down one of the most complex machines made by man to a sufficient degree that Joe User's grandma's old rickety neighbour can use it, too. That is why the computer has such remarkably 'silly' access controls, presents such opaque error messages, and sacrifices tons of performance for its Protected Video Path. We are not the targetted audience of Microsoft: we belong to that quantum sliver of humanity which doesn't faze at hearing the words USB, stack, protocol, error, driver, update and solved in the same sentence.

Try to install Linux: once set up it is rock steady, and offers a very usable GUI which may look a little different from Windows, but operates along many of the same principles. (I'd trust my parents with such a setup, and might even try it on them just for research purposes.) Now try to install a new program. 'Download here!' the button says. Oi, why won't the program install? 'Well ma'am, you downloaded the Windows version; you should have obtained our RPM package at this URL instead.' RPM? 'Yes ma'am. RPM. A program to install your programs.' So you mean I can't just double click? 'Yes ma'am.' SON! GET YOUR A** OVER HERE AND INSTALL WINDOWS AGAIN!

Unfortunately, I never used an Apple, so I cannot comment on its userfriendliness for Joe User's grandma's rickety neighbour. But I do hope I made it clear that this very important factor is completely missing from the original article.

For the record, I think Microsoft botched things, because it is impossible to dumb down the machine to a degree where it just Does What The User Wants, and guard him against shooting himself in the foot again and again. It cannot be done, and in the process the company delivered a piece of software which doesn't really work well for anybody. I think it would have been wiser had they created a solid, stable and secure core (and they can certainly do that, if not by themselves then by simply buying a little company which does kernel development), locked it down rigorously, and sold it that way. People still might bypass the security mechanisms for convenience, but at least Joe User can then rather painlessly handle the task of educating the sweet neighbour on the importance of NOT doing that, and resetting the system to its secure state again. Unfortunately, for fear of breaking countless of applications still assuming they'd be run as root, Microsoft decided to 'wean' users to a stronger security model by inserting code which does very little now, but will be much less forgiving in the future. In addition, 3rd party software producers demanding full privileged access to the kernel 'because their software cannot work properly otherwise' is not helping either.

Damned if they do, damned if they don't. With hindsight, I think a clean break might have been hard on the company now, but FAR less so in the future. But try explaining that to a bunch of ties and brief cases and MBAs.
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Offline redrumloaTopic starter

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Re: Want cheese with your whine?
« Reply #52 on: November 09, 2007, 12:56:24 PM »
Quote
Last I looked, Apple have a <7% share of the OS market, which is just short of inconsequential. Vista already tops that with 7.91%. Linux doesnt even make it into whole numbers.


Actually, it depends how you break down the numbers. Last I heard it was just over 8% overall, but that includes home and office. There are some estimates out there which has Mac well over 30% of the home market, in the USA.

One thing you may not know is Apple is gaining market share, while M$ is actually losing market share. There is a very real chance M$ can be toppled.

Quote
Where are the gamers going to go? Mac? Linux? Great, if you like 2D flash style games...


I think you are a little behind the curve. The library of games for Mac is much bigger than it was in recent years. Now not even talking about bootcamp or VMWare, most games can be made to play through Wine on either Mac or Linux. While Wine is still a bit unwieldy, it is getting better. The day is coming that gaming is no longer an excuse to use Wintendo. I use Ubuntu exclusively now and almost never boot to the XP partition.
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Offline stopthegop

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #53 on: November 09, 2007, 01:05:55 PM »
Quote
Vista is a taste of MicroSoft's future plans and things certainly won't get better come the next incarnation of Windows, I can assure you. Inch-by-inch, they're going to dupe the sheep into accepting their trusted "Trusted Computing" philosophy, which basically means everything you do on YOUR computer within YOUR OWN home will be monitored and pretty much every action you make recorded and transmitted back to "HQ"...in one form or another. But ofcourse, all this intrusion into activity on your system is for your own security, to protect you from viruses and evil paedophiles.

Why is Vista slow compared to XP? Because of all the behind the scenes snooping going on. Try inserting a BlueRay disk and running certain video recording apps at the same time. You'll be told that you're "not allowed".

Things are going to get worse as far as "Intrusive Computing" is concerned and when they finally dupe the public into beleiving we need Internet2, this intrusion of our day to day computing life will only be compounded. Welcome to the wonderful world of Big Brother!


Very well said and 100% true.  Thank you for articulating one of the main reasons I use Amiga computers to this day.  
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Offline adz

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #54 on: November 09, 2007, 02:28:21 PM »
Quote

AndrewBell wrote:

Going OT for a moment:
How is a government or security agency supposed to stop the bad guys without intruding in the privacy of the masses? Accept the fact that your emails and cell phone calls are monitored, and be careful about your communication. Wish that GW was dead? Fine, just don't email it to relatives in the middle east.

I'd prefer to lose a little privacy, than lose my life to a suicide bomber.


Another example of someone who has their head firmly implanted up their arse, this is getting all too common. If you want to stop suicide bombers, how about petitioning your government to stop invading other countries in conquest of oil supplies?

Anyway, back to the OT, personally, I have no interest in Vista, or Microsoft for that matter. I use M$ products because work is pretty much all M$, however, we have no plans to migrate to Vista for a good few years yet, as from our testing, 90% of our software fails to run. XP is quite a nice OS as OS's go, however, I use it only for games, when I want to do some serious work, I turn on the Mac ;-)
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #55 on: November 09, 2007, 02:47:08 PM »
Quote

darule wrote:

The laptop from my missus has Vista on it, she loves it. But only because of the new GUI and the new graphical features of solitaire..  *sigh*
 
It's better to have computers as girlfriends. :-D
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Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #56 on: November 09, 2007, 02:52:29 PM »
Quote

thanos wrote:

my $0.02
No one tempted to make jokes about this statement and the lousy dollar exchange rate?
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Offline little

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #57 on: November 09, 2007, 07:33:54 PM »
Back to the original post, you will know M$ has abandoned Vista when they release DirectX 10 for windows XP, that will be the nail that seals Vista in it's coffin.
 

Offline Hammer

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Re: First (?) call for Micro$oft to abandon Vista.
« Reply #58 on: November 09, 2007, 09:46:41 PM »
Quote

redrumloa wrote:
HERE.

Quote
The road ahead looks dangerous for Vista and Microsoft must realize that. With Mac OS X hot on its tail, Vista is simply not capable of competing at an OS level with some of the best software around. If Microsoft continues down this path, it will be Vista that will bring the software giant to its knees--not Bill Gates' departure.

Of course, categorically dumping an operating system is quite difficult and with millions already using the OS, chances are Microsoft won't find a good enough reason to do it. And while I can understand that argument, there's no reason the company can't continue to support Vista and go back to the drawing board for its next OS. Even better, go back to XP--it's not nearly as bad as Vista.

As a daily user of Mac OS X, Ubuntu and Vista, I'm keenly aware of what works and what doesn't. Mac and Linux work.

The time is up. Microsoft must abandon Vista and move on. It's the company's only chance at redemption.


MacOS X Leo has it's own issues. For example

Data Loss Bug In OS X 10.5 Leopard

OS X Leopard Firewall Flawed

Leopard Upgraders Getting "Blue Screen of Death"

Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard:Software Incompatibilities
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Offline Hammer

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Re: Want cheese with your whine?
« Reply #59 from previous page: November 09, 2007, 09:55:42 PM »
Quote
One thing you may not know is Apple is gaining market share, while M$ is actually losing market share. There is a very real chance M$ can be toppled.

Unlikely, since Apple is only a single PC vendor.

Refer to http://www.itfacts.biz/index.php?id=C0_7_1
Note worldwide non-Apple PC shipment vs Apple's PC shipment.
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