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Offline RW222

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #74 from previous page: October 02, 2007, 02:28:21 AM »
Some comments on past generations of PC hardware...

All PCs of given minimum spec are not equal. Those TVGA 9000 VGA cards mentioned, yes, they suck the big one, very slow. I have even found them in cheap pentium systems, couldn't beleive it, that's the way to build a pentium that gets whupped by a well specced 386. I was sorta lucky in getting a used Chips and Technologies VGA card for my 386, was about 5x as fast as a trident TVGA, despite only having 256K of video RAM. It was as fast as some of the cheapest (i.e. slowest) PCI cards, but didn't have the RAM for SVGA modes. Anyhoo, this meant that doom played quite well on a 386sx40 with 4MB, conversely, one guy I knew with a 486dx2-66 had to run it in low res, because his VGA card sucked that bad. That 386 didn't like doom 2 so much, which liked DX CPUs and 8MB of RAM a lot better. PC BIOSes in that era often had a settable divisor of the system clock speed for the ISA bus speed, slowest was 6 I think and was likely the default, worst case scenario woulda been a 25Mhz 486 running the ISA at a little over 4Mhz, slower than an original PC. Highest was usually 3. Jiggling cards around could get this working even with a 50mhz system clock, with the result that you would have a little screamer of a system. That 386sx40 setup I had, I got well tweaked up and balanced and it was the equal of many a cheap 486 system, and some not so cheap. With the talk of Wolfenstein 3D and the 286 though, I think of the extemes I have encountered on that class. The original IBM AT 286... slow as treacle, really slow, faintly faster than the original PC of course, but damn slow. I have had "Turbo XT" class machines that would run rings around an IBM AT. Then on the other end of things was a board I came across with a Harris semiconductor licensed 286 CPU, it ran at 20Mhz. Set this one up to see how it did... it was quite amazing it had some lower end 386es beat for sure. Ran windows 3.0 on it in standard mode and it was very brisk and useable.

Smoothest windows 95 machine I ever had or saw, had a Pentium 60 in it, yes, the 5V space heater version. The motherboard only had ISA slots. I found an ISA orchid SVGA card with something like a GD5340 on it, and it had a bus CD-ROM mitsumi or something, and 3 assorted HDDs which I think I even doublespaced to get some room on. This thing was a rock, it must have been very very close to a MS original development hardware machine spec or something. As long as you didn't try anything particularly processor intensive, like playing a high bitrate MP3, you'd have sworn you were using a P-166MMX or something recent and spendy for the time. It was just as smooth as butter. Other pentium and win95 machines I've had and used just weren't smooth like that was. A close second, was a machine with a Cyrix MII PR366 chip in it, that flew on 95 and when we upgraded to 98SE, felt very fast and was smooth... again, until you did something CPU/FPU intensive. AMD K6-2@450 felt slower as did a PII-400 but when it came to the crunchy stuff, you soon knew you didn't have much of a CPU, a P200 would outperform it on anything needing much FPU. For web-browsing and document thrashing though, those particular systems felt a lot faster than they were.

Anyhoo, my point in this, rather than boring you with all the specifics of PC systems I have thrown together from junk, is to note that some combinations of PC hardware just seem to be a lot nicer than others. Maybe it's the way the timings sync with a particular processor at a particular speed on the motherboard. Maybe it's the perfect combo of graphics card, hard disk and CPU. (I've known theoretically fast HDDs that turn a system into a dog) I wish I knew WHAT made these particular system combos so damn good. I know I would take good care with the setup and try and get the best out of it, but I'd do the same to anything.

Obviously in the Amiga's case, everything was specced to run nicely together. This apparently doesn't happen when you throw a PC together, but sometimes you hit it right, and get a machine, that almost... alllllmost... might compare to the smallest part of what makes an Amiga so satisfying to use.

By the way, some of those IBM "486" desktops shipped with an IBM made cyrix design that was basically a 386, I think IBM managed to cripple it even beyond it's basic cyrixness, and they were real dogs. I don't think I've met a particularly fast IBM machine, ever. Okay, had linux running decent on a PS/2 386/16, but it was a bit like tommy the pinball wizard, given that I intended it to be a router, 'coz I couldn't find any MCA ethernet hardware for it. The only IBM hardware I have much respect for are Model M keyboards and P series monitors, which I'll buy used any time I see them.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled PC h8 in. :-D

RW222
RW222: A1200 (early commodore) A1220 Turbo+4MB, A500x2.
 

Offline dammy

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #75 on: October 02, 2007, 04:20:24 AM »
Quote
According to Dave Haynie, PCI was/is better than Zorro (3?), and they might even have switched to that given time.


Actually, what Haynie said on the TeamONE ML was he dumped Zorro IV developement for PCI since it was now industry standard and was on par with Zorro IV.  Many reasons why Amiga had exotic interfaces/buses was there was not truely decent standards to follow back then.  

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Offline Tigger

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #76 on: October 02, 2007, 04:49:02 AM »
Quote

nBit7 wrote:
An Amiga 500 could smoothly scroll text vertically across a screen. An A500 ran with a CPU running at around 7MHz.  A PC running windows with a CPU in excess of 2000Mhz doesn't seem to be capable of this feet why it that?

what's more is a A500 could not only do this completely smoothly but also run colour effects over that text and bounce it up and down or make it follow a sine wave curve.


The simple answer?  It can.   I play multiple layers of uncompressed D1 video, or compressed HD video with over a dozen tracks of audio all synced together even running the monstrous OS that is Windows XP.  And that same Windows system can boot Winuae and run all your amiga programs.  Its not been a horsepower issue for a long time, there have been software problems, but frankly they've been resolved a long time ago.
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Offline Sparky

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #77 on: October 02, 2007, 04:59:27 AM »
umm ... can anyone tell me the date ?  I seem to have dropped back in time to the 90's ?!?

Are you guys seriously ranting about how much better the Amiga is over the PC ?

I know standards had dropped lately in the Amiga community in the past few years, but I didn't realise things had degenerated to this pathetic level!

Come on grow up, get a life, meet a girl (or boy depending on your preference) cause this topic is soooooooooooo sad!

Well I'll leave you nerds to your prattlings, I'm off to play on my Commodore 128 ;-)

 

Offline Crom00

Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #78 on: October 02, 2007, 05:20:49 AM »
Quote

 And that same Windows system can boot Winuae and run all your amiga programs.  


Actually I used VT4.6 daily with multiple video and audio streams on a SCSI raid array. You can emulate say, and AGA CD32 games and play uncompressed video at the same time. BUT there is a performance hit, I have a dual 2.8 Ghtz Xeon system from HP.

The fact that you can even achieve that with all the processes windows runs is pretty impressive though.

The biggest pain in the but on the Amiga is lack of flicker free video as standard. The only game in town is the Amiga 3000 and the super denise- AGA modes used on other models.
 

Offline Einstein

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #79 on: October 02, 2007, 06:17:37 PM »
Quote

Sparky wrote:

I'm off to play on my Commodore 128 ;-)



I wonder if AROS can be ported to that..
with integrated UAE and everything ..............................
I have spoken !
 

Offline RW222

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #80 on: October 02, 2007, 06:44:12 PM »
Welllll.... there's an ELKS port to the z80... which might mean you could get the hosted version of AROS compiled for it... but the z80 in the 128 is hobbled to half speed... so ELKS is gonna be a dog on it anyway. UAE.. yeah right.. lowliest machine I ever tried running it on was a 386SL20 with 4MB (DOS UAE) took 6 hours to initialise the gui... then when WB finally appeared, I couldn't tell if it was locked up or just so damn slow, rebooted back to DOS, end of story.
RW222: A1200 (early commodore) A1220 Turbo+4MB, A500x2.
 

Offline Einstein

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #81 on: October 02, 2007, 06:56:14 PM »
Thanks for the info RW222, no bounty then I guess.
I have spoken !
 

Offline leirbag28

Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #82 on: October 02, 2007, 07:34:44 PM »
@Smerf

No one is arguing that Amiga Speed is better than PC........... its not about that.

its about this.  If Amigas were made up to date in the Speed department............it would crush it in all that it already crushes it in plus speed.

The Amiga is about functionality. It is just such a logical and "Proper" computer.  PC's will always be a wack job.

Basically Amiga is a very well made Car that runs at 80miles per hour max. and a PC is a Mini with the Body of a Truck slapped onto it and an small engine with the Power of a Trucks engine and speed of a Lamborghini.  One day its all gonna topple down!  all that crap is just piled onto what was meant to be a Calcualtor.

DO this test yourself............Try Speeding up Windows to be faster than what its normal speed is.   AINT GONNA HAPPEN. WIndows may slow Down, and Windows may run SMoothly normal............but it never runs faster!  AMiga OS ont he other hand................runs perfect in 7mhz mode..............ad more colors and resoltion and speed it up............and guess what happens?  it runs faster! besides it running normal.

ITs all about the way Amiga OS and the Amiga Hardware work together.

Ever notice how much more fun it is to play a Playstaion2 or 3 or Wii compared to any game on a PC or even the same Game on a PC? its just funner..............way funner on the consoles no matter what you do................this is the same with the Amiga.................no matter what you do the Amiga OS is so functional and wayy funner.

I dont know a single human being who loves Windows as much as Mac nerds love Mac OS or Amigans love Amiga OS.

I think this is what Amigans here are trying to say. Amiga just works. And by the way...........Mac OS is just beatiful.............just beatiful in its presentation.............it is however very closed like WIndows where you get the feeling your being controlled rather than you controlling the OS the way you do on Amigas.

By the way....I see you got 5 CD32 cards.............what cards might those be?    wanna sell me one? :-)

CD32 is actually the best Amiga ever made by Commodore!...
 

Offline hamtronix

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #83 on: October 02, 2007, 09:45:02 PM »
Ever notice how much more fun it is to play a Playstaion2 or 3 or Wii compared to any game on a PC or even the same Game on a PC? its just funner..............way funner on the consoles no matter what you do................this is the same with the Amiga.................no matter what you do the Amiga OS is so functional and wayy funner.


Not for me. I hate consoles... They blow donkeys...
CD TV / Remote / Trackball Remote / Keyboard / CDTV 1411 External Drive / C= 1405 256K RAM / Smell the fear!
 

Offline Damion

Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #84 on: October 02, 2007, 09:52:58 PM »
Amigas are fun, no doubt. There are some old games I still love to play on occasion. Tinkering with the OS is just fun.

I don't have any problems with my PCs though, either. Gaming and demos are fantastic. (Come on... who played FEAR, or watched a recent ASD demo, and can say "it sucks"???) Emulation is fast and can be just about perfect, WinXP rarely crashes, and my system boots (and shuts down) in seconds. (BTW -- A very small amount of preventative maintenance will keep your windows box in perfect working order almost indefinitely.) Yes, there can be a small amount of frustration at times... but that goes with any hardware/OS.




 

Offline Minuous

Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #85 on: October 03, 2007, 12:10:08 AM »
>WinXP rarely crashes, and my system boots (and shuts down) in seconds.

Hmmm, I don't think so, not in my experience at least.
 

Offline DonnyEMU

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #86 on: October 03, 2007, 02:59:16 AM »
You guys just don't really want to admit it but the PC can do all of these things including realtime 3D..



Watch The Video Look at the apps, explore it yourself.. Realistic people will debunk this entire thread..
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Offline Damion

Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #87 on: October 03, 2007, 03:00:48 AM »
Quote

Minuous wrote:
>WinXP rarely crashes, and my system boots (and shuts down) in seconds.

Hmmm, I don't think so, not in my experience at least.



Then, assuming the hardware is even relatively modern, you have a problem.

Either

1 -- The hardware is poor quality or failing

2 -- The OS is mis-configured and/or unoptimized, wrong/outdated drivers, etc

A good WinXP machine should shutdown in about 3 seconds. (Maybe a little longer if you're running an antivirus.) After bios init, it should boot easily in under 20. (My old Athlon box could do it in 14, and that's 2002-era hardware.)

After 4 years of running severely overclocked, the single issue I had with my last PC was an occasional BSOD, which I finally tracked down to a failing Linksys wireless card. (And that annoyance lasted about a week).

Buy good hardware, spend a few days researching how to properly configure the OS, and Windows will give the average user years of trouble-free service.

 

Offline Minuous

Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #88 on: October 03, 2007, 06:00:37 AM »
I deleted it and installed Win98SE, much better, faster than XP and more stable and compatible.
 

Offline B00tDisk

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #89 on: October 03, 2007, 07:07:44 AM »
Quote

No one is arguing that Amiga Speed is better than PC........... its not about that.

its about this. If Amigas were made up to date in the Speed department............it would crush it in all that it already crushes it in plus speed.

The Amiga is about functionality. It is just such a logical and "Proper" computer. PC's will always be a wack job.

I'll keep that in mind the next time I boot up UAE and watch two programs murder each other and take the OS down with them when they stomp all over each other's respective memory addresses.   :lol:  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:
Back away from the EU-SSR!