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Author Topic: Why can't a windows machine do it.  (Read 11862 times)

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Offline Manu

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #59 from previous page: September 22, 2007, 06:50:36 AM »
@smerf

What you wrote is as true now as it was 10 years ago.
Surely this can't be any news for any Amiga user here.

AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current, hardware-intensive solutions. And they\\\'d go faster. --D.Haynie
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Offline Einstein

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2007, 08:58:59 AM »
Quote

smerf wrote:
Hi,

Just reading some of your posts about PC's verse Amiga

First thing I have to say is you all should get up to date on your computers. The Amiga was fine in its day, it was a fantastic computer, and today it still is a very viable product to fool around with.

But

Face it the Amiga today compared to the modern computers using  the new Intel dual core chips with a modern graphics card like the nvidia series, or ATI series is just plain slowwwww. Today the Amiga couldn't even think of playing games like Far Cry, Doom3 or Fear.

Face it the Amiga hardware is out of date, slow by todays comparisons, and is better laid to rest.


I do not believe you, how DARE you ?!  :pissed:

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Offline shoggoth

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #61 on: September 22, 2007, 09:34:51 AM »
I could imagine this thread ending up pretty much here.

A PC can do smooth scrolling. Windows can do smooth scrolling. Multi core CPUs doesn't make a PC more similar to the Amiga, that's just silly. The custom chipset used in the Amiga cannot be compared to multiple CPUs or even a single CPU. Post '95 PCs use dedicated chipsets, bus mastering, DMA etc. just like the Amiga did. These concepts are not specific to the Amiga, but rather hardware solutions which have been used in many different designs.

Wolf3D ran fairly well on my 286, even though this CPU is rather inferior compared to the 68k (imho). The biggest reason is chunky graphics, which both the Amiga and ST lacks. Planar graphics may have been a good idea in '84, but it was a bloody bad decision for the Amiga 1200 and Atari Falcon.
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #62 on: September 22, 2007, 10:38:24 AM »
Why are there so many posts in this thread with an 'amen' factor in it? :lol:
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Offline Waccoon

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #63 on: September 22, 2007, 10:46:40 AM »
This is a scheduling issue, and it is an age-old problem that plagues all OSes.  It has nothing to do with hardware, and many other OSes have this problem, depending on what the system is doing.

If you play an "OS friendly" game on the Amiga, it might have studdering issues, too.  You can only get guaranteed performance if you disable multitasking.  Of course, this defeats many of the reasons for having an OS in the first place, and is not an acceptable option these days.

If you run the DirectX test suite, you'll almost certainly get perfect vsync with no studdering at all.  I never get studdering when running the test.  Ever.

Also note that many modern game consoles are having studdering/tearing issues, too.  The reason is because thanks to the HD craze, developers are trying to code consoles as if they were PCs, where the software is not hard coded for just one screen resolution, but instead has to adapt to different video orientations (including widescreen).  They are also using OSes instead of just writing memory blocks wherever the heck they want.  Does that mean console hardware sucks, too?  No, it's a coding issue.  Whether it's an OS or a game issue, or both, is a matter for debate.

My take is that people just don't care about refinement these days.  It's all about max framerates and bragging rights.  If Microsoft were to make changes to Windows so video performance were more consistent, but was slower, you'd better believe PC enthusiasts would b**ch about it to no end.

The only solutions is to make a gaming OS, or switch the OS into "game mode".  That's easier said than done, given how many games are installing kernel-mode DRM drivers and otherwise taking control of your PC away from you.  It's a sad situation, but for the most part, everyone is to blame... at least in terms of software.

PC hardware today isn't what PC hardware was 20 years ago.  It doesn't suck anymore.  The last remaining Amiga enthusiasts still haven't figured that out.
 

Offline nBit7Topic starter

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #64 on: September 22, 2007, 11:14:39 AM »
Quote
If you play an "OS friendly" game on the Amiga, it might have studdering issues, too. You can only get guaranteed performance if you disable multitasking. Of course, this defeats many of the reasons for having an OS in the first place, and is not an acceptable option these days.


The Amiga could smoothly scroll text in a window that wasn't the focus.

Quote
If you run the DirectX test suite, you'll almost certainly get perfect vsync with no studdering at all. I never get studdering when running the test. Ever.


OK Direct X seems to be the only way too get smooth video.
So why don't apps like Powerpoint make use of it?


Quote
My take is that people just don't care about refinement these days. It's all about max framerates and bragging rights. If Microsoft were to make changes to Windows so video performance were more consistent, but was slower, you'd better believe PC enthusiasts would b**ch about it to no end.


I would think people would like change that made a noticeable difference.  eg. A media player that scrolled long media titles completely smoothly.  vs encoding mp3 2% faster.


Quote
PC hardware today isn't what PC hardware was 20 years ago. It doesn't suck anymore. The last remaining Amiga enthusiasts still haven't figured that out.


New PC hardware certainly does not suck.  But the user experience most certainly still does suck.  eg. clicking on a menu can sometimes take several seconds while on a Amiga it was instantaneous.  Putting a disc in causes a PC system to stop.
 

Offline Einstein

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #65 on: September 22, 2007, 12:18:41 PM »
When I say Wolf3D was slow on a 386 @ 25Hz I dont mean it was like, say, Microprose Formula 1 Grand Prix (is the name correct ?) on a standard 7Mhz A500, but that it was SLOOOOW compared to the "sily smooth" clockmstr claimed it be, on a 286 @ 12Mhz of all too, that's just silly, you may love your old PCs, but there's no reason to make things up , common.  :rtfm:

Don't get me wrong, when PCs got 256 colors and adventure games to use those colors, then I had some fondness I must admit, I'd phantasize about getting one, only because how good adventure games could look.
I actually got one in 95, a 486DX4 @ 100MHz @4MB RAM, Heretic flowed when moving within corridors and thing like that but bacame like Micropose Forlmula 1 Grand Prix (almost, I'm serious) on a A500 when you moved to open areas with a few enemies in them.
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Offline whiteb

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #66 on: September 22, 2007, 12:44:25 PM »
Quote

LoadWB wrote:

I get tired of watching video, on broadcast TV no less, with pauses while buffers are repopulated.  I hated that a parallel device could bring the system to a stand-still.  Greeting a CD-ROM can bring Windows to a full stop, especially if there's bad blocks on the CD.


Try Burning a DVD, and watch the *ENTIRE* system pause when the Burn starts (Lead-IN), and then everything goes at 30x speed to catch up when the main track is started.
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Offline ChrisH

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2007, 12:59:28 PM »
@LoadWB
According to Dave Haynie, PCI was/is better than Zorro (3?), and they might even have switched to that given time.

@Tomas
If there is a 2D PC demo that doesn't run on Windows, it'd probably stand a far better chance of running smoothly, without mysterious pauses!  I guess that something like QNX would be even better than Linux?
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Offline Piru

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #68 on: September 22, 2007, 01:07:05 PM »
@whiteb
Quote
Try Burning a DVD, and watch the *ENTIRE* system pause when the Burn starts (Lead-IN), and then everything goes at 30x speed to catch up when the main track is started.

No pauses here, which is quite expected as the whole thing works via DMA anyway.
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #69 on: September 22, 2007, 01:23:11 PM »
Quote
nBit7:  OK Direct X seems to be the only way too get smooth video.  So why don't apps like Powerpoint make use of it?

1 - Hardware support.  Powerpoint often runs on crap hardware like business laptops.

2 - Powerpoint is just crap.

3 - Powerpoint works more like a web browser (for example, XML and XSL) and less like a game engine (blits and virtual textures).  Do you get smooth scrolling from Java applets?  I don't think so.

Quote
nBit7:  I would think people would like change that made a noticeable difference."

What's "noticeable" varies depending on taste.  Microsoft caters to the common people, and to a lot of the population, smooth scrolling isn't a noticeable improvement to justify the work that goes into the system.

Windows may not be very good, but you do have to understand the priorities of Microsoft's customer base.  They don't think like Amigans, that's for sure.

Quote
But the user experience most certainly still does suck. eg. clicking on a menu can sometimes take several seconds while on a Amiga it was instantaneous.

That usually depends on the GUI toolkit, not the OS.  The only app on my machine that has a woefully slow GUI is Firefox, and only since I updated to v2.  I find it amazing the the file requester in that app is ridiculously sluggish, while every Windows app I have, including Photoshop and even Java (!), has instantaneous response.

Quote
whiteb:  Try Burning a DVD, and watch the *ENTIRE* system pause when the Burn starts (Lead-IN), and then everything goes at 30x speed to catch up when the main track is started.

I had that problem constantly when I was using Win98.  Since upgrading to Win2K (and now XP), I've never had this issue, or made any coasters.  Win98 actually had tons of scheduling issues when playing games, too, supposedly all related to memory management.  The upgrade to Win2K simply amazed me.

I don't like the design of Windows, but since dumping Win98, I have few few complaints about its performance.  Almost every problem I have with the system can be traced to my SoundBlaster drivers (Creative Inc. is infamous for their horrid drivers).
 

Offline Speelgoedmannetje

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #70 on: September 22, 2007, 02:19:00 PM »
Quote

Einstein wrote:
When I say Wolf3D was slow on a 386 @ 25Hz I dont mean it was like, say, Microprose Formula 1 Grand Prix (is the name correct ?) on a standard 7Mhz A500, but that it was SLOOOOW compared to the "sily smooth" clockmstr claimed it be, on a 286 @ 12Mhz of all too, that's just silly, you may love your old PCs, but there's no reason to make things up , common.  :rtfm:

Don't get me wrong, when PCs got 256 colors and adventure games to use those colors, then I had some fondness I must admit, I'd phantasize about getting one, only because how good adventure games could look.
I actually got one in 95, a 486DX4 @ 100MHz @4MB RAM, Heretic flowed when moving within corridors and thing like that but bacame like Micropose Forlmula 1 Grand Prix (almost, I'm serious) on a A500 when you moved to open areas with a few enemies in them.

I am originally a pc user.
And I am sooooo glad the MS-DOS days are over.
fussing around with EMM386, single tasking, sound card drivers... Let's say it was just one big FUSS.
Nowadays it's far better, but still, it's bloatware. Why does it take up gigs of hd space? WHY?

I say, things need to be redesigned because of what we want with our machines.
Amen.
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Offline KThunder

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #71 on: September 22, 2007, 02:27:53 PM »
its kindof like when audio cds first came out. record albums were considered obsolete and you could prove a dozen ways that cds were better. but there were people out there (still are) that liked the fuzzy tunes scratched out by a needle on plastic. it felt "warmer" or "more dynamic"

i just got my amiga hooked up again after some remodelling and using emulations. and i can tell you i am all for emulation and aros etc. but when i sat in front of my 3000 for the first time in a while and fired it up; i like the warm feeling. nostalgia is a good thing sometimes.

i dont really care for my pcs like i do my amiga maybe its because i have so many or because some are in a render farm and i dont really interact with them the same way. im not going to say they are pathetic technology next to my mighty amiga though. it is special beause it is different, but not perfect.
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Offline smerf

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #72 on: September 22, 2007, 03:11:17 PM »
Hi,

Lets get down to facts, the Amiga was designed at first as a super fast game machine that was converted to a computer, because of its superior chipset at the time (paula, agnes and gary) the kernel which is the same as a BIOS was very individualized to this computer. Its video, sound and disk access could be programmed to do things on their own. Also Jay  Miner used a different type of video so that you could use the Amiga on a TV, this led to sort of a round pixel instead of a square pixel (round pixels sort of blend in better when moving a video around the screen I think, I could be wrong on this one but I am to LAZY to dig through my old Amiga boxes to verify this) but, since most of you Amiga guys where crying about how smooth the Amiga seems, I loaded up the new Amiga Forever 2006 disk yesterday and played a few videos that they give you on the AF disk, I noticed that these movies really sucked video wise on the PC, whenever the sound got to complex they lagged, and the jaggies (due to square pixels) really ruined the delight of watching the movie. Then I pulled out my Amiga 4000 and loaded in the same movies, the sound and the video where immaculate even though the Amiga did not have the shading, and texturing as my PC nvidia card, now I did notice that the Amiga video seemed to play slower than the PC but the video and sound where still immaculate compared to the PC, now this could be because the PC was trying to emulate the Amiga OS, so windows played the video faster, but tore up the video due to pixelization (square pixels) even with anti alizing on. Then to test out my theory, I started to play some of the mpegs off of Aminet 18, I used my Ubuntu OS for this, the mpegs played super fast, and the video was super compared to the Amiga, but there was no sound on these. The point is the PC sound system is not as good as the Amiga, the PC stutters when there is a complex waveform, this is probably due to the Amiga sound chip. Then I loaded in beryl on the Ubuntu system. I watched a DVD movie on one screen, a mpeg movie on the other, played some chip tunes from Aminet on the other, and loaded in a web page on the other, beryl displays a cube on the screen that can be rotated as you turn the center wheel on the mouse, nothing slowed down, the sound didn't stutter, and everything looked great. My analysis is this Windows Vista sucks, Ubuntu is close to and just about as much fun as the Amiga, and the Amiga with the slower 68040 processor still reigns supreme for these features due to its special chip set. Now remember this PC computer I am using is a new intel E6600 running dual core at 1.86 ghz with a near top of the line nvidia card.
Now also I tried playing a dvd movie in the Amiga by using a converter to burn a movie to cd rom. Due to this transfomation the video was degraded some. The Amiga played the movie but stuttered and slowed down. Frame rate was slower probably due to CPU overload.

Now I don't usually use my Amiga anymore, except for my checking account and old games, it does have OS 3.9 on it, it is an A4000 with a 68040 card. It took me close to 3 hours to get the cd to play the movie due to setting up the movie player, maybe I am an idiot, but I felt like I was in an early stage of Linux trying to get full color out of the Picasso II card, and I never did do it, and B&W is not good especially for how much it stuttered. Will look into this matter more.

The Amiga's age is starting to show.

smerf
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Offline sdyates

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #73 on: September 22, 2007, 05:39:53 PM »
Yes, try it on a Mac first, it has far fewer problems with video. In fact, it is the best progression from an Amiga. I even run UAE on my Mac.
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Offline RW222

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Re: Why can't a windows machine do it.
« Reply #74 on: October 02, 2007, 02:28:21 AM »
Some comments on past generations of PC hardware...

All PCs of given minimum spec are not equal. Those TVGA 9000 VGA cards mentioned, yes, they suck the big one, very slow. I have even found them in cheap pentium systems, couldn't beleive it, that's the way to build a pentium that gets whupped by a well specced 386. I was sorta lucky in getting a used Chips and Technologies VGA card for my 386, was about 5x as fast as a trident TVGA, despite only having 256K of video RAM. It was as fast as some of the cheapest (i.e. slowest) PCI cards, but didn't have the RAM for SVGA modes. Anyhoo, this meant that doom played quite well on a 386sx40 with 4MB, conversely, one guy I knew with a 486dx2-66 had to run it in low res, because his VGA card sucked that bad. That 386 didn't like doom 2 so much, which liked DX CPUs and 8MB of RAM a lot better. PC BIOSes in that era often had a settable divisor of the system clock speed for the ISA bus speed, slowest was 6 I think and was likely the default, worst case scenario woulda been a 25Mhz 486 running the ISA at a little over 4Mhz, slower than an original PC. Highest was usually 3. Jiggling cards around could get this working even with a 50mhz system clock, with the result that you would have a little screamer of a system. That 386sx40 setup I had, I got well tweaked up and balanced and it was the equal of many a cheap 486 system, and some not so cheap. With the talk of Wolfenstein 3D and the 286 though, I think of the extemes I have encountered on that class. The original IBM AT 286... slow as treacle, really slow, faintly faster than the original PC of course, but damn slow. I have had "Turbo XT" class machines that would run rings around an IBM AT. Then on the other end of things was a board I came across with a Harris semiconductor licensed 286 CPU, it ran at 20Mhz. Set this one up to see how it did... it was quite amazing it had some lower end 386es beat for sure. Ran windows 3.0 on it in standard mode and it was very brisk and useable.

Smoothest windows 95 machine I ever had or saw, had a Pentium 60 in it, yes, the 5V space heater version. The motherboard only had ISA slots. I found an ISA orchid SVGA card with something like a GD5340 on it, and it had a bus CD-ROM mitsumi or something, and 3 assorted HDDs which I think I even doublespaced to get some room on. This thing was a rock, it must have been very very close to a MS original development hardware machine spec or something. As long as you didn't try anything particularly processor intensive, like playing a high bitrate MP3, you'd have sworn you were using a P-166MMX or something recent and spendy for the time. It was just as smooth as butter. Other pentium and win95 machines I've had and used just weren't smooth like that was. A close second, was a machine with a Cyrix MII PR366 chip in it, that flew on 95 and when we upgraded to 98SE, felt very fast and was smooth... again, until you did something CPU/FPU intensive. AMD K6-2@450 felt slower as did a PII-400 but when it came to the crunchy stuff, you soon knew you didn't have much of a CPU, a P200 would outperform it on anything needing much FPU. For web-browsing and document thrashing though, those particular systems felt a lot faster than they were.

Anyhoo, my point in this, rather than boring you with all the specifics of PC systems I have thrown together from junk, is to note that some combinations of PC hardware just seem to be a lot nicer than others. Maybe it's the way the timings sync with a particular processor at a particular speed on the motherboard. Maybe it's the perfect combo of graphics card, hard disk and CPU. (I've known theoretically fast HDDs that turn a system into a dog) I wish I knew WHAT made these particular system combos so damn good. I know I would take good care with the setup and try and get the best out of it, but I'd do the same to anything.

Obviously in the Amiga's case, everything was specced to run nicely together. This apparently doesn't happen when you throw a PC together, but sometimes you hit it right, and get a machine, that almost... alllllmost... might compare to the smallest part of what makes an Amiga so satisfying to use.

By the way, some of those IBM "486" desktops shipped with an IBM made cyrix design that was basically a 386, I think IBM managed to cripple it even beyond it's basic cyrixness, and they were real dogs. I don't think I've met a particularly fast IBM machine, ever. Okay, had linux running decent on a PS/2 386/16, but it was a bit like tommy the pinball wizard, given that I intended it to be a router, 'coz I couldn't find any MCA ethernet hardware for it. The only IBM hardware I have much respect for are Model M keyboards and P series monitors, which I'll buy used any time I see them.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled PC h8 in. :-D

RW222
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