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Author Topic: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up  (Read 13512 times)

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Offline iamaboringperson

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #59 from previous page: February 21, 2007, 09:55:18 AM »
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Wrong. I was attacked at knifepoint about 4 years ago. I resisted and I got away relativey unharmed You are doubtless thinking that he never intended to use it other than to intimidate me but you would be wrong again. He lunged with it several times aiming for my upper body.
Oh, I'm pretty sure I'd rather wrestle a handgun, or especially a rife, out from a persons hands than a knife. I wouldn't get cut that way.



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Offline mel_zoom

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2007, 10:13:13 AM »
" Oh, I'm pretty sure I'd rather wrestle a handgun, or especially a rife, out from a persons hands than a knife. I wouldn't get cut that way."

If someone levels a gun straight at you and its clear they wont hesitate to use it how quickly do you think you can move yourself out of its path and trap their arm compared to their squeezing the trigger at the first sign of trouble? Whilst you are correct that you could get cut in the struggle, how confident are you that an accidental discharge in the struggle wont wound you just as badly? Once an arm is trapped it becomes a lot more difficult to use a knife but it is still quite easy to fire a gun you are holding.

I dont like those odds one bit. A person holding a knife has to lunge at you with it having gotten reasonably within reach. Timing wise you are more evenly matched.

Also, unless they are an expert knife thrower you are more likely to get away safely too.
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Offline CannonFodder

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2007, 01:48:15 PM »
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Inanimate objects are morally neutral - to think otherwise is to embrace some primitive animistic notion that belongs to apes and monkey-men.


Who/what are a monkey-men?
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Offline shillard

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #62 on: February 21, 2007, 01:56:41 PM »
Quote

CannonFodder wrote:
Quote
Inanimate objects are morally neutral - to think otherwise is to embrace some primitive animistic notion that belongs to apes and monkey-men.


Who/what are a monkey-men?


Those who believe that inanimate objects are not morally neutral.

And those who worship Bono, drive Volvos, fail to keep left (or right, in the States and continental Europe) unless overtaking, people who use their vehicle's fog lamps when no fog is present, and those who think Mike Moore is a really cool bloke who always speaks the truth.

I apologise if I've left anyone out - I'm sure I'll make up for it later.
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Offline CannonFodder

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #63 on: February 21, 2007, 02:00:45 PM »
Quote

shillard wrote:
Quote

CannonFodder wrote:
Quote
Inanimate objects are morally neutral - to think otherwise is to embrace some primitive animistic notion that belongs to apes and monkey-men.


Who/what are a monkey-men?


Those who believe that inanimate objects are not morally neutral.

And those who worship Bono, drive Volvos, fail to keep left (or right, in the States and continental Europe) unless overtaking, people who use their vehicle's fog lamps when no fog is present, and those who think Mike Moore is a really cool bloke who always speaks the truth.

I apologise if I've left anyone out - I'm sure I'll make up for it later.


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Offline NoFastMem

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #64 on: February 21, 2007, 06:01:22 PM »
Quote

shillard wrote:

Those who believe that inanimate objects are not morally neutral.


Shall we hand every terrorist on the face of the Earth a neutron bomb, on account of the fact that it's inanimate and morally neutral?

Gun laws are there for people, not guns. This has to be the dumbest, most petulant pro-gun argument I've heard in a long time.
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Offline X-rayTopic starter

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #65 on: February 21, 2007, 06:58:45 PM »
"...Shall we hand every terrorist on the face of the Earth a neutron bomb, on account of the fact that it's inanimate and morally neutral?..."
-----------------------------------------------------------
I wouldn't hand a terrorist a pair of pliers, never mind a neutron bomb.

"...Gun laws are there for people, not guns..."
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That's the point, old bean. The suitability of the person to own the firearm is the ultimate question, not the question of whether a firearm will render a person a danger to society. In all cases here in the UK, you have to satisfy the authorities that you have a legitimate need for that firearm.
If someone has issues about how that suitability is assessed and verified, that is a legitimate concern. But that goes to the quality of the individual, not the gun.
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #66 on: February 21, 2007, 09:56:33 PM »
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Do you....

a) Shoot them.

b) Call 999 and pray the cops come faster than Pizza Hut.

c) Get raped and die.


Hint: My wife answers "a".


Yeah, like you have a wife :-P If you do, she must be one very patient woman!

Anyway, you said earlier that your guns are totally locked down and secure and so on.

How the hell are you supposed to crack them open, load them and fire them at your assailants in any situation where they break in without disturbing you immediately?

Unless your guns are easy for you to get hold of and load in an extremely short space of time I fail to see how option "a" could be enacted except in the case the guys are stood there making a massive disturbance for however long before getting in. Let's face it, that's not exactly what happens in the majority of cases.

Of course, if your guns are easy to get hold of quickly, they are that much easier to steal too.

You realistically can't have it both ways. You can have them properly secured or you can have them ready to use in a genuine emergency.
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Offline Karlos

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #67 on: February 21, 2007, 10:04:06 PM »
@Chris

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This has to be the dumbest, most petulant pro-gun argument I've heard in a long time.


Indeed. However it seems the standard posting MO for our antipodean troll here. Hmmm, I can't think who that reminds me of...


Quote
I apologise if I've left anyone out - I'm sure I'll make up for it later.


As well you should. All those people that for whatever reason think you are an OK guy are hurting at your forgetfulness.
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Offline metalman

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #68 on: February 22, 2007, 04:37:06 AM »
Quote
Karlos wrote:
How the hell are you supposed to crack them open, load them and fire them at your assailants in any situation where they break in without disturbing you immediately?

Unless your guns are easy for you to get hold of and load in an extremely short space of time I fail to see how option "a" could be enacted.


That's why you have a gun rack in your truck ...



permits are for concealed weapons ...

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Offline X-rayTopic starter

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #69 on: February 22, 2007, 07:22:43 AM »
@ Karlos

"...Unless your guns are easy for you to get hold of and load in an extremely short space of time I fail to see how option "a" could be enacted except in the case the guys are stood there making a massive disturbance for however long before getting in. Let's face it, that's not exactly what happens in the majority of cases.
Of course, if your guns are easy to get hold of quickly, they are that much easier to steal too.
You realistically can't have it both ways. You can have them properly secured or you can have them ready to use in a genuine emergency...."
-----------------------------------------------------------

Not so, my good man. You wouldn't be aware of it (most UK people probably don't need to be aware of it), but various safes exist that are secure and very fast to open. These are mainly of use in SA or the US where you can have a gun in a safe at home, the gun being in a loaded condition.
In the majority of burglaries that I am aware of, some time and effort has been expended by forcibly gaining entry to the premises. Of course if you leave your doors unlocked and windows open then you may have no warning that someone is breaking in (this assumes you are at home when it happens).
Hypothetically speaking, a farmer who heard a door or window being broken could indeed get to his safe (which in most instances is in his bedroom, before the intruder could get to him. This would be more likely to happen if he locked the bedroom door behind him  ;-)

Having said that, the situation in countries where firearms are a legitimate weapon for self defense is usually like this: the guy will have the gun accessible but concealed in the house while he is at home. If he leaves the house, he either takes it with him or he locks it up.
However, even in SA and certain states in the US, it is not an automatic signal to come out with guns blazing because you hear somebody breaking in. The advice in a case like that is as follows:

1) Take yourself and your loved ones to your designated safe room and lock yourselves in.
2) Call the police and tell them you are being burgled, how many innocents there are and which room you are in. Advise them that you are armed and are waiting in the room.
3) You wait for the police and let them deal with the burglars/home invaders. You only fire on the burglars if they bust into the room that you are in. The advice is to let them steal what they want and let the police try to apprehend them.

There is a misconception that a firearms owner is a blood-thirsty psychopath just looking for an excuse to kill somebody. I know gun owners in countries all over the world and the majority of them are not interested in escalating a situation to the point that shots are fired. This is logical, because a law-abiding citizen doesn't want to lose his firearms or his freedom because he acted illegally in the use of deadly force, with his firearm. The majority of these people (and certainly ALL the people I shoot with) value life and don't want trouble.

I have been shooting various firearms since I was knee-high to a grasshopper. I have fired a total of ONE shot in a situation that was related to defense. In that case I prevented a man from stabbing a woman to death in Johannesburg in 1995. I also used the same gun to arrest that man.
So I guess the score is X-ray 1, Goblins 0

(Comment for Mel: I took the pistol that was involved in the above incident to a psychiatrist. This was to check whether the pistol had a bloodlust or had developed a bad attitude because of firing that shot. This was a good thing for me to do, because although my pistols are quite well behaved, one can never underestimate their capacity to corrupt or render their owner a wicked person. You'll be glad to know that under very detailed questioning, the pistol promised to never countermand any of my orders, and to never exude a miasma of evil or malice as long as it is registered to me.  :-P )
 

Offline iamaboringperson

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #70 on: February 22, 2007, 08:59:36 AM »
How did this turn into a guns thread?

Anyway, what are hunters supposed to do? Dang, I suppose nobody cares about them, anyway.
 

Offline mel_zoom

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2007, 09:03:51 AM »
"Comment for Mel:..."

Hmmm. I wonder why you are still single.















:-P
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Offline nadoom

Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2007, 10:26:01 AM »
nowt wrong with owning guns, the majority of people own them simply for recreation not to shoot people dead.


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Offline Agafaster

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2007, 10:37:21 AM »
Quote

mick_aka wrote:
Heres a ridiculous fact for you from a pal who is a firearms officer, to own and operate a military tank within the UK with a working weapon (turret mounted cannon) under 75mm in caliber you require:

A standard full UK driving licence (as they are not goods vehicles there is no weight restriction)and a standard shotgun licence.
Your vehicle must also be registered with your local police station.

Seems pretty simple, im off a tank shopping!


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sounds like a larf - would make parking in wolvo a lot easier ! (not sure how I'd get it into the Wulfrun Centre car park though...
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Offline jkirk

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Re: Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2007, 01:39:28 PM »
mel

while i agree that military grade weapons and automatics should not be in the pubic hands guns do serve a purpose.

in the country where there are no (or few) grocery stores you must hunt for your food or fish for your food. for hunting you must shoot or bludgeon the animal to death. also i would much rather shoot a rattlesnake to death than to walk up to it with a knife or axe and try to kill one that way.

also if you have a mob on your doorsteps an axe in your hand won't affect things in the least but if you have a shotgun in your hand they will think twice before attacking (even if they have guns too)

i hate to fall back on the old saying but it is true. guns don't kill people, people kill people. you can get rid of everything(guns, axes, brooms, pipes, wire, rope, etc) and this will still be true.

as for your situation you were lucky that person was incompetant or you would have been dead anyway. he could have thrown something at you(including the knife) to stop you from fleeing then killed you.

btw just to dash water on your theory about gun fanatics are the only ones for guns. i don't own a gun. they scare me(same with knives). i have used them though when i needed to(coming face to face with rattlesnakes regularly kinda wakes you up to that.)
 
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