Shootings and gangs: black community leaders speak up

[X-ray]

"...Can you honestly look at a gun with full knowledge of its intended purpose, knowing how many lives it has ultimately cost and regard it as something positive and worthwhile? Can you admire it as a thing of beauty when you know how ugly its purpose?..."
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Well, I have firearms, Mel. They haven't cost any lives, don't have an ugly purpose and are definitely worthwhile having.
I think it must be because I bought my guns from a dealer who only sells guns that were brought up by good parents and are not made from cursed metals. I have never had complaints from the authorities about my guns being evil. I guess mine are just well-behaved   ;-)

Now these dudes in south London, shooting each other...I feel sorry for them. Clearly they are under the influence of evil guns. They must have got their guns from a dodgy dealer. I bet you if I give them my guns and they give me theirs, then they will become good citizens with no record, and I will become a one man crime-wave  :-D

[Speelgoedmannetje]

X-ray wrote:
I feel sorry for them. Clearly they are under the influence of evil guns.

Now you know this 'argument' you completely made up yourself. The argument against guns is that it's an effect like gasoline on fire (if there is fire).

[mel_zoom]

X-Ray:

"They haven't cost any lives, don't have an ugly purpose and are definitely worthwhile having."

Yes they have. Do you think they were manufactured by whatever company and made available soley to provide you and fellow enthusiasts with innocent entertainment?

Every gun made by armaments manufacturers is paid for by sales of these armaments to people that in turn use them to slaughter other people. Each new type of firearm designed and sold is done so to make this process easier and more efficient.

Unless your firearms are made by a company that never produces anything except "sporting" versions and never, ever sells them except to sportsmen, how can you dispute that?

If their ownership were legal would you add other weapons to your collection? Where would you draw the line - personally - on what would be acceptable to own?

Im sure that antipersonel landmines are technically well crafted and engineered too. Again if ownership were within the law would you like a few of those? If not why not?

[shillard]

Dear God!

Not one of my guns has taken a life or injured a human being!

Can I take them back to be fixed under warranty or something, as they are clearly faulty?


To save myself the trouble of retyping, you can read my view on firearms - and firearms in the UK in particular - here:

http://shillard.blogspot.com/2006/04/stop-gun-grabbers.html

The links in the entry really say it all....



Something about the argument "violence never solved anything", and a reference to the "city fathers of Carthage" comes to mind....

[mel_zoom]

"Not one of my guns has taken a life or injured a human being!"

Why am I not surprised to hear you own more than one?

By buying them, are you not contributing to the profits of companies that thrive on making the process of killing people that much easier?

[X-ray]

"...Yes they have..."
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Okay, who did I kill with my firearms?

[mel_zoom]

X-ray:

"There isn't a substitute for the real thing. It is like substituting YOU for a sock...see what I mean?"

I must say its a relief to read youd rather copulate with your laundry as you havent a hope in hell of making that substitution.

[X-ray]

"...Why am I not surprised to hear you own more than one?..."
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I've never understood why some women need 30 pairs of shoes and several different nail-files so I guess the score is 1-1 there.
By the way I also have more than one firearm. Makes me twice as evil.

 :devildance:  :devildance:

[X-ray]

"...I must say its a relief to read youd rather copulate with your laundry as you havent a hope in hell of making that substitution..."
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Aww Mel, and I thought we would be so good together.

[mel_zoom]

X-Ray:

"Okay, who did I kill with my firearms?"

I didnt once say you personally have killed anybody with your firearms only that your firearms have aided the killing of people financially. I am sorry if this concept is too abstract for you but I will try to explain.

Assuming your firearms were produced by any major armaments manufacturer, the money you paid for them has doubtlessly been used to produce more weapons that in turn have been used to kill people - in exact accordance with their intented purpose. Be honest: using their products to shoot at inanimate targets is a tiny sideshow for them but as with all manufacturers any sale is good and supports their main business. And that business is producing devices that are designed to kill. Whatever else they may be good for is not really their concern.

Is your personal amusement worth the price of supporting this?

The way you make it sound its the zenith of satisfaction.

Whatever did you do before you discovered the joy of shooting things?

[mel_zoom]

The day they design ladies shoes and nail files to be efficient, lethal weapons you can make that comparison.

For what its worth I dont hoard such things. Though I do have several pairs of shoes - Id be lying to say otherwise.

[mel_zoom]

Gun owners:

Here is a thought. Assume your gun was stolen in a robbery and then used to kill someone in a subsequent crime. Can you honestly say you played no part in making that weapon available to the killer (even in this opportunistic example)?

Where do the illegally owned firearms in the hands of criminals come from originally?

[X-ray]

"...I didnt once say you personally have killed anybody with your firearms only that your firearms have aided the killing of people financially. I am sorry if this concept is to abstract for you but I will try to explain..."
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Oh, so it is financially that I have assisted the slaughter of the innocents, is it?
Really?
I thought my taxes were being used for that, not the £9 profit the gun manufacturer made from my two sales. ;-)  
Well, seeing as I have contributed much more than £9 to charitable causes, I guess I am in the black morally.
It's just as well, because you had me thinking I was a lost cause  :lol:  

[mel_zoom]

So easy to absolve yourself once you look at it financially.

If someone knowingly donated money to a charity or bought goods from an organisation that used some of those funds to support groups that were into killing people - eg a terrorist organisation for example, would you condemn them for doing so?

Or would their other deeds put them morally in the black?

Wether you like it or not it is the same equation. The only difference is that armaments manufacturers can legally sell their wares but morally they are no better than anybody else that profiteers from conflict.

If a company produced something you liked - maybe some favourite snack or something - but it was wrecking the environment and getting away with it, would you consider giving up that product?

If you would on principle - even though you knew your abstinence would go pretty much unnoticed - why not apply this same rationale to owning firearms?

Your guns may only have made £9 profit for them. What of the ammunition you have to buy to use them?

[X-ray]

"...Here is a thought. Assume your gun was stolen in a robbery and then used to kill someone in a subsequent crime. Can you honestly say you played no part in making that weapon available to the killer (even in this opportunistic example)?"
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If the weapon was stolen because I failed to take due precautions to store it in a secure manner then I would definitely be at fault and would have to accept responsibility for the negligent loss of a firearm.

"...Where do the illegally owned firearms in the hands of criminals come from originally?..."
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Multiple sources:

1) Locally stolen legally-held firearms (not applicable to the subject at hand in the London scenario, because the weapons cannot be legally held as they are banned.)

2) Illegally modified Brocock air pistols. A Brocock air-pistol is made purely for sport and target shooting, so that is excluded from your manufacturer's contribution to evil. These are no longer available here in the UK, anyway.

3) Home made. You can make a shotgun with two pieces of plumber's pipe, a 50p coin and a bit of epoxy adhesive. Who said knowledge isn't dangerous? Maybe we should lock up all the budding engineers and burn all the books.

4) Guns that were legally manufactured overseas and were smuggled into the UK. This is what I call a universal donor. These guns are always going to be available as long as countries have a need and means to defend themselves. Almost every country in the world manufactures small arms.

If we could press a magic button and make them all turn into dust, that would be great. But then we as a nation would become subservient to the first group of chavs who armed themselves with a bunch of £4 axes bought legally from B&Q.

[CannonFodder]

But then we as a nation would become subservient to the first group of chavs who armed themselves with a bunch of £4 axes bought legally from B&Q.

Would you use your handgun to shoot a chav with an axe that broke into your house?