Did Producer Timbaland Steal From the Demoscene?

[CannonFodder]

LoadWB wrote:

I am sorry, but the fan-kids will have to take a dive.  First off, it was not "sampled," it was played in its entirety in a song which he claimed was his original creation.

I´ll have to disagree on this point.

A sample is a sample, there is no defined ¨industry standard sample lemgth¨. ISO-5AM9L3 perhaps? ;-)

[Piru]

Legal: Clear samples

It's a copyright infringement (infringing rights of both GRG and Tempest), and a obvious case of plagiarism (using the whole C64 version as the base of the "Block Party" ringtune and "Do it").

This is a particularily interesting point:

If the sample is used a lot
If the sample is extensive and underpins your tune to such an extent that the track won't really work without it, then you're in a weak bargaining position.

The other record company can demand a much higher royalty - as much as 50% in some cases.

The record Loose has 12 tracks,. "Do it" is one of them, that'd mean 1/24th of the profits. Loose has sold 3 million copies (early december 2006, so it's more by now).

So:

The potential cost of removing an uncleared sample once a record has been released is enormous and your bargaining position with the copyright owners is extremely weak.

They may sue for damages as well as demanding some or all of the profits from the record. They could obtain a court injunction preventing the record company from selling the record. If they succeeded in that, then your label would have to go to the time and expense of recalling any copies in the shops and re-pressing the record. The bill for all this lands in your lap.

[CannonFodder]

The record Loose has 12 tracks,. "Do it" is one of them, that'd mean 1/24th of the profits. Loose has sold 3 million copies (early december 2006, so it's more by now).

Well, I can see Nelly Furtado personally suing the arse off Timbaland too for loss of earnings. :lol:

[jkirk]

CannonFodder wrote:

The record Loose has 12 tracks,. "Do it" is one of them, that'd mean 1/24th of the profits. Loose has sold 3 million copies (early december 2006, so it's more by now).

Well, I can see Nelly Furtado personally suing the arse off Timbaland too for loss of earnings. :lol:

i'd bet nelly furtado didn't see any of the profis off the album.

[rkauer]

cv643d wrote:
I dont think this guy is so involved. It is probably some of his employee who came up with some cool sounds, he is maybe involved in the demo scene himself, then he gives a new "beat" to timberland and he aproves it and stamps his name on the tune.
ZIP
  :lol:

If was that T guy or an employee, that no matters: STEAL IS ROBBERY (and vice-versa :-D).

 If T gay put his name on a thing, it belongs to him.

 If he put his name on a stealed thing HE IS A THIEF! :pissed:

[CannonFodder]

rkauer wrote:

cv643d wrote:
I dont think this guy is so involved. It is probably some of his employee who came up with some cool sounds, he is maybe involved in the demo scene himself, then he gives a new "beat" to timberland and he aproves it and stamps his name on the tune.
ZIP
  :lol:

If was that T guy or an employee, that no matters: STEAL IS ROBBERY (and vice-versa :-D).

 If T gay put his name on a thing, it belongs to him.

 If he put his name on a stealed thing HE IS A THIEF! :pissed:

Sampling is not theft, it´s an art form.

Sampling without giving due credit is naughty.

What are your views on Danger Mouse´s Grey Album?  Or anything by the Beastie Boys who hardly ever used to get their samples cleared.

[Ral-Clan]

I´ll have to disagree on this point. A sample is a sample, there is no defined ¨industry standard sample lemgth¨.

The very word "sample" means "a small bit".  i.e. if you taste a little corner of a cake you are having a sample, but you cannot claim to still be "sampling" it if you eat the whole thing (like Timbaland did with Tempest's song).

[CannonFodder]

jkirk wrote:

CannonFodder wrote:

The record Loose has 12 tracks,. "Do it" is one of them, that'd mean 1/24th of the profits. Loose has sold 3 million copies (early december 2006, so it's more by now).

Well, I can see Nelly Furtado personally suing the arse off Timbaland too for loss of earnings. :lol:

i'd bet nelly furtado didn't see any of the profis off the album.

Sell your soul to satan and reap the rewards! ;-)

[lopos]

My guess is that the T guy doesn't even know where Finland is.  :lol:
What an idiot.

[jkirk]

ral-clan wrote:

I´ll have to disagree on this point. A sample is a sample, there is no defined ¨industry standard sample lemgth¨.

The very word "sample" means "a small bit".  i.e. if you taste a little corner of a cake you are having a sample, but you cannot claim to still be "sampling" it if you eat the whole thing (like Timbaland did with Tempest's song).

the meaning has since changed.

merium webster defines it (in this instance)as
3 : an excerpt from a musical recording that is used in another artist's recording

notice there is no length specified so a full song can also be considered a sample

[CannonFodder]

ral-clan wrote:

I´ll have to disagree on this point. A sample is a sample, there is no defined ¨industry standard sample lemgth¨.

The very word "sample" means "a small bit".  i.e. if you taste a little corner of a cake you are having a sample, but you cannot claim to still be "sampling" it if you eat the whole thing (like Timbaland did with Tempest's song).

No it does not mean ¨small bit¨.

Please explain how Danger Mouse Grey Album, which is made from 100% samples taken from the Beatles White Album to re-create Jay-Z´s Black album would fit into your myopic view of what sampling is.

edit:

Sampling!=sampling

[CannonFodder]

jkirk wrote:

ral-clan wrote:

I´ll have to disagree on this point. A sample is a sample, there is no defined ¨industry standard sample lemgth¨.

The very word "sample" means "a small bit".  i.e. if you taste a little corner of a cake you are having a sample, but you cannot claim to still be "sampling" it if you eat the whole thing (like Timbaland did with Tempest's song).

the meaning has since changed.

merium webster defines it (in this instance)as
3 : an excerpt from a musical recording that is used in another artist's recording

notice there is no length specified so a full song can also be considered a sample

Agreed, I could take an entire song from an album, add vocals and maybe a few breaks, and some effects, and change the order of different sectios of the song.

It´s still sampling.

[jkirk]

Danger Mouse Grey Album, which is made from 100% samples taken from the Beatles White Album to re-create Jay-Z´s Black album

excellent album btw  :-)

[Ral-Clan]

merium webster defines it (in this instance)as
3 : an excerpt from a musical recording that is used in another artist's recording

And if you read carefully, that definition says EXCERPT.  An excerpt as defined by the American Heritage Dictionary is:

A passage or segment taken from a longer work, such as a literary or musical composition, a document, or a film.

So if you take the WHOLE thing, you are not taking an EXCERPT, which is then not a SAMPLE.  To SAMPLE something, you must take an EXCERPT, which is a PASSAGE or SEGMENT.

Otherwise, I could rip a whole 20 minute track off a BBC orchestra CD, add a vocal line or rythm track, and sell it as my own - arguing that I SAMPLED it.  No...this is a re-mix, and if done without crediting and paying the original copyright holder it is plagiarism and theft.

[CannonFodder]

jkirk wrote:

Danger Mouse Grey Album, which is made from 100% samples taken from the Beatles White Album to re-create Jay-Z´s Black album

excellent album btw  :-)

Yeah, much better than the Black album too. :-)

[Ral-Clan]

Please explain how Danger Mouse Grey Album, which is made from 100% samples taken from the Beatles White Album to re-create Jay-Z´s Black album would fit into your myopic view of what sampling is.

edit: (Wikipedia link on sampling)

Sampling!=sampling

To use your own defence against you, the Wikipedia article you cite above says in the very first sentence:

"In music, sampling is the act of taking a portion, or sample, of one sound recording...".

and...

"Often "samples" consist of one part of a song, such as a break, used in another..."

The key word here being PORTION or PART.  Not the entire track.  If you take and entire song and just layer stuff on then that is then a re-mix.

The art of sampling is to use small snippets of audio and re-create an entirely new work.  Much like  how in collage artists use small scraps of images to create an entirely new piece of visual art.  To paraphrase one YouTube pundit: to simply take an entire page out of a magazine, change it slightly and call it your own is plagiarism.

If the DANGER GREY MOUSE album you mention takes bits of the White Album and makes all new original works that don't mimic the original, then that I agree is SAMPLING.  If it merely takes the unmodified tracks and layers stuff on top, that is NOT sampling, it is re-mixing.

Another trait of a talented sampling artist is that he or she takes their short samples from lots of different sources to assemble a single new, original sounding work.  They don't simply plunder/sample a single song to create a new work.