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AuthorTopic: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now  (Read 3176 times)

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Offline Tesral

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2003, 06:17:37 AM »
Quote

mpdox wrote:


But again I have to ask, my motives for being against linux is that there is no innovation from linux coming, and I love computers (loong way since I had my sinclair spectrum) so I want to see them advancing. How is linux helping me in this matter? I want to see a computer like in star trek during my lifetime, damn it... The fact that linux is running with 64 mb of ram means exactly nothing, sorry. I have 512...


Look at it this way.  If it will run in 64 meg of RAM, what will it do with 512meg?

I just built a PC, brand new.  I installed SeUS Linux on it.  I have steep learning curve ahead of me, but the local Linux people are nothing if not helpful.

Linux is in itself an innovation.  An OS who's code is an open book to anyone.  Bugs are not only reported by the users of that code, but FIXED by them.  Often the same person that reports the bug will patch the bug.  Personally I am glad such people exist.  And with Linux they can do that.  Try patching the bugs in Windows, or even the Amiga code.  Both are closed books, "No user serviceable parts inside".  If you are hampered by a bug you must wait for the "official" patch, however long that might take.

Linux is indeed reinventing the wheel, but in such a way as we can all make wheels.  If we are going to see that "Star Trek" computer, I am convinced it will come from the open source community of admitted computer nerds, not a monolithic cooperation that thinks only of the bottom line, and how much it can squeeze out of said nerds.

Yes, Linux is a little behind in the the features department.  A little slow with hardware support.  Then again what hardware makers are working with them?  They have to pry the information out to build drivers.  However Linux is the place innovation is going to happen.
Garry   AKA   -Phoenix-   Rising Above the Flames

No More Secrets, No More Lies.
Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes
Olde Phoenix Inn  http://phoenixinn.iwarp.com
 

Offline Erwin-K

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2003, 11:26:46 PM »
Hi All,

I also posted this to the news item about M$ licensing SCO Unix. (Great timing, what?)

http://www.opensource.org/sco-vs-ibm.html

That is the Open Source community's take on the suit's merits & lack thereof. It is intended as a "Friend Of The Court" brief if this @#$%*! filing ever proceeds far enough to warrent the counter filing.

Lots of Unix history and and mostly footnoted links. (BTW, SCO's biggest customer seems to be Ronald McDonald.)  :-o
Best,

Bob Kennedy
 

  • Guest
Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2003, 11:30:48 PM »
http://news.com.com/2010-1071_3-1007758.html?tag=fd_nc_1

Bruce Perens take on the whole fiasco.

Some very interesting points in here.
 

Offline createcoms

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #33 on: May 20, 2003, 12:05:37 AM »
In the words of the mp3.com group three dead trolls and a baggie - "LINUX IS A GREAT BIG MESS FOR LEADIST NURDY SMUCHS"


Bring me back the real unix, unix for men!
 

Offline jeffimix

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #34 on: May 20, 2003, 12:10:00 AM »
A couple things. IIRC IBM has Aix becuase SCO licenses it to them. Microsoft also have kicked IBM in the shins, remember OS/2 ? Its windows 3.1 compliant cause its what NT was supposed to be. Windows 95 was a rush job after M$ backed out of its deals with IBM.
\\"The only benchmarks that matter is my impression of the system while using the apps I use. Everything else is opinion.\\" - FooGoo
 

Offline jeffimix

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #35 on: May 20, 2003, 12:23:40 AM »
SCO... silly desperate people.  Linux people don't innovate, they refine., and make endless free minor variations, like mailing clients, there're probably hundreds for Linux. This lets in natural selection. Apache beats the other web services et cetera.  Mozilla beats other web browsers (not counting text only ones mind you). I just wish it were more compact and fast, wait, whats this version here? Its just harder to find speedy small Linux versions than say, boated 1 gigabyte ones. nice OS for what it's supposed to do though. M$ have a lot to lose if they lose the server market, a lot. Eventually companies even use Linux terminals cause Linux might work a bit better with Linux, and if its free, runs on cheap hardware, and does all this stuff, why not? M$ have every right to be afraid of Linux, its got a lot of power behind it. And companies like Big Blue,  Novell, and Oracle. And Sun Microsystems is every bit as big as M$.

ED: (because 3 posts in a row is two posts too many): Oh and HMetal, my time is valueless, so Linux is free Thank you so very much. =) Students have their advantages.
\\"The only benchmarks that matter is my impression of the system while using the apps I use. Everything else is opinion.\\" - FooGoo
 

Offline iCreate

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #36 on: June 15, 2003, 01:53:24 PM »
Not only is SCO wrong, but they themselves helped move code over to Linux with the Caldera distro.
 

Offline mikeymike

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2003, 02:07:15 PM »
@ Tesral
Quote

Look at it this way. If it will run in 64 meg of RAM, what will it do with 512meg?


Not necessarily any better.  Just because an OS has more RAM available it doesn't necessarily mean it will run faster.  Does a basic install of AmigaOS 3.1 run any faster with 4MB RAM or 40MB RAM available?  No.  It all depends on what you're doing with it.

@ everyone

As a side note, guys, please tone down the OS bashing/advocacy.  It's about as interesting as listening to a broken record.

Offline jeffimix

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2003, 02:50:16 PM »
Love is all you n, Love is all you n, Love is all you n, Love is all you n.
\\"The only benchmarks that matter is my impression of the system while using the apps I use. Everything else is opinion.\\" - FooGoo
 

Offline mikeymike

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2003, 03:14:42 PM »
erm? :-)

Offline csirac_

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2003, 03:48:28 PM »
There are many here generalising that Linux is bloated, slow, and lacking in innovation. Well I would have to generalise that none of you have seriously tried to use Linux, at least not in the last 2 years.

I do not have a Windows partition of any sort on any of my 3 PC's hard drives; although I do have a VMware image for Win98SE that runs a couple of CAD/simulation tools for my Eng. degree.

AT VERY WORST - Linux is only equally as lacking in innovation as Windows. At the worst. As far as bloated apps go - the apps themselves are not bloated!  FAR FROM IT! Linux is positivly the BEST OS I have seen in terms of apps actually utilising shared libraries. Those who have been unfortunate enough to use Redhat will know what I mean, if they have ever tried to install an RPM and found the myriad of dependancies that aren't met. Those dependcy failures show you just some of the libraries that it is using, rather than inventing it's own code or linking statically..

Again: In general the apps themselves are not bloated; it's the number of apps. You may have got the bloated concept from a "install everything" distro like Redhat. Well I have to tell you - try installing a barebones Debian or Slackware setup and work it up to the way you like it; much less bloat in the way. I highly recommend Debian, btw - I can search hundreds of thousands of free software packages and have one of them downloaded and installed with the necessary dependancies at the click of a button.

Just the other day I wanted a Finite Element Method software package (for evaluating a system of Partial Differential Equations - in my case simulating electric fields with varying dielectric structures). I thought "Surely apt wouldn't have something like that, I need to go to the labs and use Matlab or Mathematica"... but hey! There's freefem - and whilst it isn't the greatest, it did the job (sort of ;). I guess you could compare apt to aminet, except far better :P

-> Yes, Mozilla is bloated. But there are other browsers such as Galeon, Moz. firebird, etc. that are not. For ascii-only terminals you can even use Lynx. -> Yes OpenOffice.org is bloated. But there is Abiword, too. -> Yes, Gnome 2 & KDE are bloated desktop environments. But you don't have to use them. -> yes, Bind 9 is overkill for your LAN, but there is dnsmasq -> yes, Anjuta C/C++ IDE may be overkill for your syntax highlited editor needs, but there's scite, etc. etc.

As far as bloat goes - yes, I still agree that Linux will use more of your HDD than a lot of other OSs, but the power, functionality and flexibility of the GNU/Linux stuff is often by far leaps and bounds above what you care to be comparing to. Remember, there is no central control over the development of the Linux desktop. Some of the bloat is in duplication of libraries - the OSS world is competitive and irrational; everyone doesn't just use one GUI API, they have over a dozen to choose from. There isn't just one printing system, there are at least half a dozen that I have tried. There are competing X font servers, etc. But the point is you get choice, and the competition enables continuous quality and innovation (and a lot of copying of that innovation between each other AS WELL AS external sources).

The "Unix" architecture that we saw emerge in the 80s was never meant for the single user desktop. There is just so much extra stuff in the Unix world that single user desktops don't have to worry about, apart from multiuser permissions! Batch scripting, job control, scheduling maintenance tasks, logging service activities (for your web, SQL, email servers), post-processing those logs (with your batch/scheduling tools), security updates, development, synchronising data/accounts/services software with other servers, backup systems, service priorities, monitoring & imposing RAM/CPU/HDD/network limits on users, intrusion detection, and general administration.

It takes a lot of unique tools and OS concepts (compared to a single user OS like AmigaOS)  to achieve all this with some kind of flexibility and modularity. That's why Linux is "complicated" and "bloated".

Quote
Last time I remember it was 1999... I was fighing with ipfwadm and squid back then. Man, that squid crashed a lot...
By the way what is used as a proxy now usually? And for firewall rules?


You had trouble with squid? A company I work(ed) for has been using the same box with Squid, running Debian potato, since '98 with nary a crash at all, let alone reboot. It served a 16 line dialup ISP which had around 500 users, as well as the 10 or so PCs internally 24/7.

Squid is the main http proxy in use, there are others with different features/specialities. iptables is the firewall technology in use today. I cheat and use fwbuilder - a drag and drop "object" (rule/protocol/network/host grouping) based GUI firewall builder. It makes firewall/NAT rules a joy to make. Coincidently, webmin has been a godsend for me. A sort of web frontend to just about every Linux administration task you can think of, from setting up cron jobs, SQL admin, Samba shares, firewall rules, starting/stopping services and even rebooting. Great for remote administartion of multiple machines.

As far as innovation goes. I'd like to see (apart from our favourite - AmigaOS ;) a platform that has noticably more innovation going on. Perhaps the Linux kernel & "Unix" feel isn't inspiring for you (I think it does good for a server/multiuser platform) but must insist that Linux application development would have to have a great deal of innovation going on.

Holy crap what a massive rant... sheesh I'm almost embarrassed ;)

- Paul
 

Offline Dementhor

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2003, 04:21:18 PM »
----
mpdox wrote:
I think linux must die!!! The sooner the better for all of us...
Finally, I see some actions against this plague of computers...
-----

Sure, Linux is a copy of something else and originaly started as joke/programming exercise. So what. Today it's the only freely available alternative to M$ stuff. There are even apps for it. I'd say it's definitely an overkill for a personal workstation, but all that's not a reason to demand its extermination. It's not hurting anyone and you're quite free to stop bitching and write something sooo much better. Your attitude's quite nazi.
In Soviet Russia YOU assimilate the Borg.
 

Offline Galahad-Fairlight

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2003, 05:43:32 PM »
You must be tripping right?  I assume that some of the lax drugs laws from neighbouring countries also applies to your home town!

I can think of plenty of reasons why people make a noise about Microsoft, and its not because they are succesful, its because they are succesful by writing atrocious software.

I have had my Amiga's for nigh on 15 years now, and I have NEVER had to format a hard drive because the OS keeps causing problems, yet this is ACCEPTED practice on Windows systems.

Because Microsoft coders have absolutely no idea on the words 'compact', 'lean', and 'optimised', their software is overbloated and needs ridiculous specs to operate.  I mean, Word is a word processor.... since when the hell is it acceptable that it needs 64mb of ram and 300mb of free hard drive space? ITS A WORD PROCESSOR?!?!?!!?

If Microsoft were succesful and producing quality software that didn't need ANOTHER patch to operate correctly, wasn't so damned expensive, etc,  etc, I'm quite sure my load of Amiga's would have been sold years ago.

Frankly, Linux is doing a better job and for free in most cases that Microsoft can't even touch.

At the end of the day, whilst you are entitled to your opinion, that kind of opinion will eventually lead to the collapse of any valid kind of competition to Microsoft, which equals less choice, more cost, which you CANNOT possibly contemplate is a worthwhile risk?

Rant over.
 

Offline mpdox

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2003, 06:21:14 PM »
Quote

Sure, Linux is a copy of something else and originaly started as joke/programming exercise. So what. Today it's the only freely available alternative to M$ stuff. There are even apps for it. I'd say it's definitely an overkill for a personal workstation, but all that's not a reason to demand its extermination. It's not hurting anyone and you're quite free to stop bitching and write something sooo much better. Your attitude's quite nazi.


sigh... I don't think you understand exactly why I hate linux. One of the reasons is the linux fanatics... What has Microsoft to do with anything? The minute I say something about linux, the reaction is exactly the same: M$ stuff... Every time. I called a friend (linux fanatic himself), who was in a bus, and he told me the bus is moving slow, is too hot, for sure is Microsoft's fault). I just called to ask him if he wants to have a drink, but could he escape his linux fanatism? You have no idea how many people are like this.
There are applications for Linux? Yes, there are millions of text editors, mail clients etc... I think I'll do a YAVI myself (Yet Another VI), just to show people how many applications are for linux... Ok, I didn't use linux in more than three years, so my informations are outdated. But I still meet linux fanatics every day, exactly like three years ago. I'm sure, tough, there are very fine and nice applications for it anyway, so my apologies for being ignorant in this field.
In the meantime, I'm enjoying Windows 2000, Visual C++ (I make money with it and it's also fun), DirectX, Internet Explorer, Windows Update, System restore, Terminal Services, really nice Cleartype technology for my 17'' NEC LCD monitor, MS Office, support for every hardware device I would buy, ever. Should I continue? I can't wait to buy a Tablet PC in the near future, so computing will be fun anywhere I go. Yeah, those Microsoft bastards, it's so crazy to run their products...
Linux is the only alternative to Microsoft? How about Solaris or *BSD? How about MacOS X? These are alternatives, not a monolithic design for the kernel, or programs that are only poor made copies of a copy of a copy...
And for you, I am a nazi... You know, when communism came to power in Romania in 1945, they had a tactic to put every enemy of the "superior" communist party in jail. They called the enemy a nazi and that was all... I wonder who was the true enemy of the country back then, the "good" and "beautiful" communism, or the so-called nazi?
So, I'm not bitching about anything. I just don't like something and I say it, what's the problem? Or, suddenly I have to like what you like just because you don't agree with me? Use what you want, let me use what I want and that's all, the world is big enough for all of us. The only difference seems to be that I respect your opinions, but you call a nazi whoever is not a communist...

PS I hate Microsoft myself for some reasons like: Trustworthy computing (this is number one ever in my list), business tactics, monopol industry, killing  OS/2 and home-computing market... But at least I give them the respect for creating a lot of things, and always pushing forward the computer industry, instead of living in 70s forever...
\\"I can answer the question, but am I bright enough to ask it?\\"
 

Offline mpdox

Re: Hey SCO, sue me! Petition online now
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2003, 06:34:51 PM »
Quote

I have had my Amiga's for nigh on 15 years now, and I have NEVER had to format a hard drive because the OS keeps causing problems, yet this is ACCEPTED practice on Windows systems.


The same thing I see everywhere... Seems that people never heard of NTFS, they install the latest Windows XP using FAT32... And after having problems (how could you not have problems with a file system designed in 1983 for floppies if used on 200 GB hard disks?), "hei, Microsoft is so stupid, I never had to format my harddrive using my Amiga"...

But ok, I'm tired of these things.
For me, this discussion is over, it never lead anywhere. Seems that all that linux users now about Microsoft is the FAT file system and Windows 95/98 as OS.
I think it's like in Dostoievski's characters, happiness through suffering, this is the best what linux can do...
\\"I can answer the question, but am I bright enough to ask it?\\"