Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: Time to Move On  (Read 13785 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

  • Guest
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #44 from previous page: July 10, 2006, 02:07:55 PM »
Quote
The only problem with porting to Apple hardware is the problem of the x86 CPU's used inside them
 

Offline motorollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 8669
    • Show only replies by motorollin
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2006, 02:10:51 PM »
Quote
nicholas wrote:
Quote
The only problem with porting to Apple hardware is the problem of the x86 CPU's used inside them

Rubbish. There are loads of PPC Macs still available.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline xeron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 2533
    • Show only replies by xeron
    • http://www.petergordon.org.uk
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2006, 02:36:47 PM »
Quote

CLS2086 wrote:
...

instead of Ambient, put OS4Emu and you have an "OS4" more Amiga 68k and PPC compatible than a pure OS4...

...

This is why lots of people are still making 68k programs that run on classic AOS and MorphOS, and sometimes under OS4...


You really do make it sound like MorphOS runs a significantly higher percentage of 68k apps than OS4, which I don't think is the case. The difference is marginal; OS4 runs all the system friendly apps i've ever thrown at it. We even have a working Nalle Puh ;-)
Playstation Network ID: xeron6
 

Offline CLS2086

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Oct 2003
  • Posts: 1456
    • Show only replies by CLS2086
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2006, 05:25:11 PM »
Digibooster works on 1200 + MOS ;)
Keep the Faith !
VG 5000/A1000/500/500+/600/2000/CDTV/1200PPC-GREX/1200PPC -ATEO-BV/4060D/CD32/Aone/Peg 1/Peg2 G4/ various funny machines too  :-) http://www.mo5.com/collection/index.php?pseudo=CLS2086
I also repair drives of our old beloved Amiga
 

Offline srg86

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2004
  • Posts: 211
    • Show only replies by srg86
    • http://www.aopp12.dsl.pipex.com
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2006, 05:46:15 PM »
Quote

irishmike wrote:
Ahhh, but lets not forget that there was a complete rethink to MacOS in the 1990's (exact date of switch from OS 9 to 10 as a whole evades me currently).   Now MacOS X is really just a pretty face on top of good old FreeBSD!   I always liked the stability of the *nix boxes I worked with.


Actually, Mac OSX is based on the Mach kernel with a FreeBSD layer on top. It is a mess of an operating system IMHO and quite inefficient.

From what I've hard from other people using OSX, it's not as stable as other *nix'es.
 

Offline motorollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 8669
    • Show only replies by motorollin
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2006, 05:50:15 PM »
Quote
srg86 wrote:
Actually, Mac OSX is based on the Mach kernel with a FreeBSD layer on top. It is a mess of an operating system IMHO and quite inefficient.

It works beautifully IMO, and is less of a mess than (for example) Linux.

Quote
srg86 wrote:
From what I've hard from other people using OSX, it's not as stable as other *nix'es.

I don't know what they're doing to make it unstable. None of my Macs have *ever* crashed or produced unexpected error messages.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline xeron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 2533
    • Show only replies by xeron
    • http://www.petergordon.org.uk
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2006, 05:55:45 PM »
Quote

CLS2086 wrote:
Digibooster works on 1200 + MOS ;)


So what? It probably works on classic + OS4, too.
Playstation Network ID: xeron6
 

Offline srg86

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2004
  • Posts: 211
    • Show only replies by srg86
    • http://www.aopp12.dsl.pipex.com
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2006, 06:01:11 PM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:
Quote
srg86 wrote:
Actually, Mac OSX is based on the Mach kernel with a FreeBSD layer on top. It is a mess of an operating system IMHO and quite inefficient.

It works beautifully IMO, and is less of a mess than (for example) Linux.


Under the hood, there is a lot of overhead with the difference layers.
 

Offline motorollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 8669
    • Show only replies by motorollin
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2006, 08:34:19 PM »
Quote
srg86 wrote:
Under the hood, there is a lot of overhead with the difference layers.

Who cares? I'd much prefer to throw a slightly faster processor at the OS and end up with something stable (like MacOS) than have something supposedly less "messy" but runs like dog sh*t (like Windows).

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline coldfish

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2003
  • Posts: 731
    • Show only replies by coldfish
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2006, 05:05:44 AM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:

I don't accept that as a reason for not porting OS4 to run on a Mac. Do you think Linux developers pay Apple a license fee for the privilege of porting Linux to Apple hardware? I don't think so. So why would AmigaOS be any different? The only problem with porting to Apple hardware is drivers, but that's no excuse when Linux PPC drivers already exist.

moto


But Linux developers dont charge for the OS, Hyperion/Ainc etc would be wanting money for OS4, making it a commercial venture.
 
I doubt Apple would sit idley by as someone makes money hijacking their hardware?

Dont get me wrong, if Hyperion released OS4 for PPC-Mac tommorrow, I'd probably be in line for my copy and the MacMini here would soon have an identity crisis. :-D
 

Offline motorollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 8669
    • Show only replies by motorollin
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2006, 08:15:03 AM »
Quote
coldfish wrote:
But Linux developers dont charge for the OS, Hyperion/Ainc etc would be wanting money for OS4, making it a commercial venture.
 
I doubt Apple would sit idley by as someone makes money hijacking their hardware?

I don't think Apple would care as long as they are selling hardware. The OS people choose to use on it is nothing to do with them. I find it very hard to believe that Apple would charge developers a license fee for porting a commercial OS to their hardware.

Put it another way: If Hyperion decided to port OS4 to Intel, would they have to pay Dell, Lenovo, Toshiba, and all the other manufacturers of IBM Compatible hardware a license fee? I don't think so.

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline Waccoon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Apr 2002
  • Posts: 1057
    • Show only replies by Waccoon
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #55 on: July 11, 2006, 12:11:48 PM »
Quote
About a modern browser, forgot about that if it was possible it would be already done on 68k and MorphOS !

Indeed.  Lack of tools is one thing, but the OS has to conform to minimum standards, too.  Making software portable is developing for the lowest common denominator.  Abstraction layers for AmigaOS are pretty much emulators, not translators.

Quote
xeron:  OS4 runs all the system friendly apps i've ever thrown at it

How many of those are there?  ;-)

Quote
motorollin:  It works beautifully IMO, and is less of a mess than (for example) Linux.

Yeah, but how many hardware platforms does Linux support?  Can you run the latest OSX on a Mac that is 6+ years old?

Plus, high-level driver support is a joke.  All you need is one bad driver to wipe out a system.  Contrary to popular belief, Linux is no more immune to crashes than Windows if you have buggy drivers, and Linux has plenty of those.

Never confuse "clean" with "sparse".  Besides, Linux isn't clean by any standards.  I'd be more fair to compare OSX to BSD, its parent.  What has Apple done to improve BSD?  Or, have they merely stripped out the stuff they think they don't need?

Quote
motorollin:  I don't know what they're doing to make it unstable. None of my Macs have *ever* crashed or produced unexpected error messages.

My mini has.  A few lock-ups, too.  Even if there is Mach and UN*X underneath, at the GUI level, it's all proprietary closed-source code made by Apple.  It has plenty of bugs of its own.

I tried to play a DVD, and I got one of those infamous "negative number" error messages.  I tried to make a connection to my web server, and I got an error "-50".  Great work on the usability front, Apple.  Everyone knows negative numbers are the best way to handle unexpected results.  It also locked up during the NFS connection, once I did figure out why I was getting "-50".

If I didn't need the Mac for software testing, I'd sell it.  It's certainly no more stable than my Win2K system.

Quote
srg86:  Under the hood, there is a lot of overhead with the difference layers.

Lots of overhead is typical in a mircokernel OS.  Windows NT fits in this category, BTW.

There's really no hard speration between monolithic and microkernel unless the OS designer is a fanatical idealist.  I don't know why some people are so religious about the comparrison.

Quote
coldfish:  I doubt Apple would sit idley by as someone makes money hijacking their hardware?

Possibly, if the company in question is a commercial entity.

Quote
motorollin:  I don't think Apple would care as long as they are selling hardware. The OS people choose to use on it is nothing to do with them.

I don't agree.  Apple is far, far more aware of their brand image than most other PC companies.  They can't do anything to the free software guys, but they get pissy when commercial companies move into their territory, even if it may increase hardware sales.

Besides, more and more, Apple is becoming a service-based company.

Quote
Put it another way: If Hyperion decided to port OS4 to Intel, would they have to pay Dell, Lenovo, Toshiba, and all the other manufacturers of IBM Compatible hardware a license fee? I don't think so.

Define "IBM Compatible".  ISA is long gone.

Modern PCs are based on open standards.  Very few single companies can claim ownership of the platform, and many have contracts not to sue the pants off each other (Intel and AMD, for example).  It's relatively easy to get hardware documentation.  Even Macs are just PCs in a different box, though there's more weird stuff going on at the firmware level AFAIK.
 

Offline motorollin

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2005
  • Posts: 8669
    • Show only replies by motorollin
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #56 on: July 11, 2006, 12:39:10 PM »
Quote
Waccoon wrote:
Yeah, but how many hardware platforms does Linux support?

How many does it support well? I have tried Linux on loads of systems and it is always a headache to get it working properly. I would prefer to buy in to a proprietary platform and OS and know that everything will work properly.

Quote
Waccoon wrote:
Can you run the latest OSX on a Mac that is 6+ years old?

Why would you want to?

Quote
Waccoon wrote:
Plus, high-level driver support is a joke.  All you need is one bad driver to wipe out a system.  Contrary to popular belief, Linux is no more immune to crashes than Windows if you have buggy drivers, and Linux has plenty of those.

My point exactly...

Quote
Waccoon wrote:
Never confuse "clean" with "sparse".  Besides, Linux isn't clean by any standards.  I'd be more fair to compare OSX to BSD, its parent.  What has Apple done to improve BSD?  Or, have they merely stripped out the stuff they think they don't need?

I fail to see the difference. The end result is a stable platform. Does it really matter exactly what they did to achieve that?

Quote
Waccoon wrote:
I tried to play a DVD, and I got one of those infamous "negative number" error messages.  I tried to make a connection to my web server, and I got an error "-50".  Great work on the usability front, Apple.  Everyone knows negative numbers are the best way to handle unexpected results.  It also locked up during the NFS connection, once I did figure out why I was getting "-50".

I really don't understand why you are getting problems like that. I have never had a message like that, and have been using Macs for several years.

Quote
Waccoon wrote:
I don't agree.  Apple is far, far more aware of their brand image than most other PC companies.  They can't do anything to the free software guys, but they get pissy when commercial companies move into their territory, even if it may increase hardware sales.

What can they do, legally, if a commercial entity decides to write and sell an OS for their hardware? My guess is nothing.

Quote
Waccoon wrote:
Define "IBM Compatible".  ISA is long gone.

That's splitting hairs. I think you know full well that by "IBM Compatible" I mean any brand of PC which has evolved from the IBM model - IOW, any consumer board which will run Windows.

Quote
Waccoon wrote:
Modern PCs are based on open standards.  It's relatively easy to get hardware documentation.  Even Macs are just PCs in a different box, though there's more weird stuff going on at the firmware level AFAIK.

I don't think that's entirely relevant. The fact that PPC Linux runs on Macs means that it is possible to port an OS to Apple hardware. Why would OS4 be any different?

--
moto
Code: [Select]
10  IT\'S THE FINAL COUNTDOWN
20  FOR C = 1 TO 2
30     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA
40     DA-NA-NAAAA-NAAAA DA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAAA
50  NEXT C
60  NA-NA-NAAAA
70  NA-NA NA-NA-NA-NA-NAAAA NAAA-NAAAAAAAAAAA
80  GOTO 10
 

Offline srg86

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2004
  • Posts: 211
    • Show only replies by srg86
    • http://www.aopp12.dsl.pipex.com
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2006, 01:44:41 PM »
Quote

motorollin wrote:
Quote
srg86 wrote:
Under the hood, there is a lot of overhead with the difference layers.

Who cares? I'd much prefer to throw a slightly faster processor at the OS and end up with something stable (like MacOS) than have something supposedly less "messy" but runs like dog sh*t (like Windows).

--
moto


Windows 2000 and XP have never run like dog sh*t for me, they are very stable and highly reliable. I've also never been infected with spyware or viruses.
 

Offline Colin_Camper

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2002
  • Posts: 395
    • Show only replies by Colin_Camper
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2006, 02:50:36 PM »
Quote
Windows 2000 and XP have never run like dog sh*t for me, they are very stable and highly reliable.


I can't argue with that.

Quote
I've also never been infected with spyware or viruses.


I can argue with that! You are accessing the internet are you? Even through NAT you cannot access many websites before you start picking up spyware/malware.  :-(
Colin Camper CCNP MCSE P45 UB40
A4000D
 

Offline srg86

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2004
  • Posts: 211
    • Show only replies by srg86
    • http://www.aopp12.dsl.pipex.com
Re: Time to Move On
« Reply #59 on: July 11, 2006, 02:56:48 PM »
Quote

Colin_Camper wrote:
I can argue with that! You are accessing the internet are you? Even through NAT you cannot access many websites before you start picking up spyware/malware.  :-(


All it needs is a good firewall (mine is in my router), decent antivirus (I use avast!) and don't look at attachments of e-mails from people you don't know.