PPC970 Benchmarks in 32bit mode

[Hammer]

This means over
200 instructions are flying through this thing's pipes.

Note that Prescott  has 256 "Instructions in Flight".

Then there's the thuroughput issue. Intel's still using the shared-bus approach it pioneered so many years ago to save pin count, assuming that a single, wide bus would be faster. In truth, it is
only cheaper than two smaller dedicated-route busses as done up in older machines such as the Cray.

The price of the machine (purchasing) will play a big part in the desktop PC arena. Money just doesn’t magically appear in people’s pockets…

IBM's got the edge in I/O handling,
being able to both send *AND* recieve instructions on the same cycle.

Full duplex would be the term to use. I wouldn’t comment on Intel's CPU duplex issues.

now, let's add in IBM's multiple processor approach, seperate channels
per-processor verses Intel's shared-bus approach. Means that if you
provide a large enough memory pipe that IBM MP approaches will be
zooming past anything Intel can throw at it.

Due to the nature of X86 market i.e. no single X86 CPU vendor has the edge for very given segment. AMD would be the current flag bearer for the X86 multi-processor market (AMD 's Opteron class platform).

I don’t think your average citizen (western level incomes) can afford dual processors based machine. Majority of them can’t even afford the current dual PPC G4 let alone >2-way PPC 970 machines.    

Note that, it's not the first time that Intel has been blown away by the competition in regards to large scale multi-processors e.g. DEC's Alpha based platform is one example in the mid 90s.    

[IonDeluxe]

My POV is simply that this is a promising processor and that any pissing contestes between it and new intel\AMD CPU's to be developed will just have to wait.
I dont have anything against AMD\intel per se, but an improvement as big as this is great for those many people who want to get away from M$ dominated arena's, and at the moment, M$ is dictating to AMD\intel where they should be going for the x86 platform.
With this new processor some very competitive preformance that has been sorely needed is being brought back to the PPC, and in combination with Mac, Linux and Amiga products perhaps it will begin a bit of an exodous from wintel systems and make M$ pull its monopolistic head in.

[Hammer]

IonDeluxe wrote:
My POV is simply that this is a promising processor and that any pissing contestes between it and new intel\AMD CPU's to be developed will just have to wait.

Note that AMD's Opteron is available since 22nd April 2003.

I dont have anything against AMD\intel per se, but an improvement as big as this is great for those many people who want to get away from M$ dominated arena's,

Just hating something is childish It must make business sense for them.

It would interesting on what proportion would be the X86 Linux users VS PPC Linux users. Does anyone has sales the data from United Linux and Red Hat Linux?    

and at the moment, M$ is dictating to AMD\intel where they should be going for the x86 platform.

There’s business reason for this i.e. majority of Intel/AMD's revenues is obtained from MS based solutions.

With this new processor some very competitive preformance that has been sorely needed is being brought back to the PPC, and in combination with Mac, Linux and Amiga products perhaps it will begin a bit of an exodous from wintel systems

Are you saying that going PPC will guard against MS?  Don't you know dotNET ecosystem is currently being ported to Linux?

All MS has to do (IF it make business sense for going into PPC in MS's POV) is to rehash PowerPC edition Windows NT x.0 with dotNET ecosystem.

and make M$ pull its monopolistic head in.

Note that the Mac**, Amiga** and Atari** were a monopoly within their own markets. **During the reign of 68K.

Microsoft has made the X86 platform a commodity (against the wishes of  IBM), thus crushing the non-commodity platforms.  

This kind of rhetoric (naming calling and negative labeling) doesn’t wash i.e. since I’m old enough to recall the once monopolistic IBM during early 80s. Not one companies you mentioned is an angel in regards monopolistic tendencies.

I agree with Hammer completely on this... if PPC takes over again IBM will jack prices up in the 500 dollar range for chips and it'll be like the 80's all over again.... upgrade every 2 years...instead of every 6 months... because the costs will be high... I hope PPC/X86064/Itanium are all 'COMPETATIVE" ... I hope no one chip takes over... because ultimatly its bad for us consumers...

[IonDeluxe]

None of those companies has been found guilty in an antitrust case have they?

Have you looked at microsoft lisencing policies and costs?

In Aust to buy a simple system $450 windows, $1000 for office.Thats more than the PC to run it in most cases.
.NET is a move towards paying a subsricption to use M$ software...and you still have to buy the software to begin with.

There is much business sense in moving away from those kinds of costs, especially for the home user.

With TCPA M$ is forcing people to use thier products or become incompatible...even with earlier windows products.It is also an attempt to kill GPL as you cant afford to get certification.All this on the x86 platform.

M$ does not have dominance of the PPC platform so it is a good business move if you wanna keep away from the pricing policies of M$.

Note that the Mac**, Amiga** and Atari** were a monopoly within their own markets. **During the reign of 68K.

Well duh. The atari 2600 is still a monopoly within its own market.

The fact of the matter is that the IBM 970 is a good CPU bringing an injection of power into the PPC areana that is at the very least competitve.
The added advantages is that it provides an alternaive to the wintel which is very important to alot of people. There are alot of people who have grown more than dissatisfied with what the x86 offers, and can no longer trust M$.
I am one of those people, I make no bones about it.However, if you believe, like you seem to do, that x86 and M$ is the way to go, then I think you may find that you are in the wrong place.

[Hammer]

None of those companies has been found guilty in an antitrust case have they?

IBM (1956). It lasted for 40 years (ended at ~1996 ).

Have you looked at microsoft lisencing policies and costs?

Almost everyday.

In Aust to buy a simple system $450 windows,

Looking at "DIY Computer Market"(Parramatta) price list...

OEM Windows XP Home Edition cost $185 AUD.
Security hologram seems to be genuine....

A Volume License purchases is a lot cheaper than that (i.e. lower per unit). The famed “Corporate Edition”.

$1000 for office.Thats more than the PC to run it in most cases.

Looking at "DIY Computer Market"(Parramatta) price...

MS Office XP Professional OEM $480 AUD.  
Security hologram seems to be genuine....

.NET is a move towards paying a subsricption to use M$ software...and you still have to buy the software to begin with.

It's an option.  An example MS’s 2003 product line up i.e. I recall, MS Windows Server 2003 (a.k.a dotNET server) is still being sold as a box (i.e. not as a subscription).

[DethKnight]

True believers in freedom-of-choice, such as I, can only hope that Intelians keep relying upon the deeper/narrower/ramp-up-the-cycles pipeline thing.
Then when they reach 100 stage 1 instruction wide bazillion gigahertz, they can compensate their instruction/cache misses which creates parts/size/heat. The advent of netbox.co.uk/set-tops should aleviate some of these watt-hog x86s. The day of the giant home box are numbered from my "POV"
also IMHO nad POV I have disdain for intel purposely holding back the motherboard/cpu technology just to force upgrades (I realize this is a business model)

 interesting link below
http://arstechnica.com/archive/news/1052113980.html
But I also prefer no single ONE chip/board/OS vendor.

[Hammer]

The added advantages is that it provides an alternaive to the wintel which is very important to alot of people.  There are alot of people who have grown more than dissatisfied with what the x86 offers, and can no longer trust M$.

(Sigh) Have you statistically tested "There are alot of people who have grown more than dissatisfied with what the x86 offers"?

I am one of those people, I make no bones about it.

There's no point staying in dreamland i.e. one has to do a SWOT analysis for the said product.

However, if you believe, like you seem to do, that x86 and M$ is the way to go,

That's your assumption.

 then I think you may find that you are in the wrong place.

Such statements are completely irrelevant to the topic at hand. Please the personality out of this.

[Hammer]

Then when they reach 100 stage 1 instruction wide

Not quite 1 instruction wide. Note that Northwood's ALU throughput has four 32 bit ops/cycle.
 

bazillion gigahertz, they can compensate their instruction/cache misses (SNIP)

Increase in trace cache was one solution for  deeper pipelines related problems. Not just clock speed.

The advent of netbox.co.uk/set-tops should aleviate some of this.
 

Note that it’s VIA C3 powered based machine...
http://www.netbox.co.uk/netbox/html/techspecs.htm

As such, it may not have the performance to compete with thin and light "Pentium M" based boxes. Then again, Netbox has to compete with Shuttle branded PCs (they offer Athlon/nForce2 and Pentium/845based solutions).

[strobe]

As always people should check forums.appleinsider.com since we have been filtering rumors for years.

There is evidence that these benchmarks are fake. The G4/P4 benchmarks were ripped from barefeats.com.

[IonDeluxe]

@hammer

Yeah, I did make an assumtion, you have said nothing to the contrary of that assumption.If .NET and x86 technology is not what you are supporting, then what are you supporting?

I have no need to do an analysis of the marketplace when a move away is apparent. Aust Govt has issued directives to move to more cost effective use of software resulting in several key departments changing to linux, many other countries are either considering the same move or are implementing it.
Pick up a magazine and with each issue you see more and more linux related articles(and software on the CD).
In the general comunity many formerly avid Wintel users have moved to Linux.

People dont change from something they are happy with unless the new product is better.

Nevertheless, the IBM 970 will give the PPC platform a boost in the performance area exactly when it is badly needed which will give people more options and will make the market more competetive which is good for all consumers.

If these benchmarks are fake I guess time will tell.I doubt IBM would produce a CPU that was crap as there would be no money in it, and they have a knack of making money.

[Hammer]

Yeah, I did make an assumtion, you have said nothing to the contrary of that assumption.

Did you missed Windows Server 2003 for 2003 product line up example? DotNET is just an ecosystem i.e. a platform to target (refer to Visual Studio dotNET).
 

If .NET and x86 technology is not what you are supporting, then what are you supporting?

Is that relevant?

Aust Govt has issued directives to move to more cost effective use of software resulting in several key departments changing to linux

"Nothing new under the sun" in regards Oz Gov's use of *nix based OS. Did you miss the statement in regards to the level of “proportion”. Note that those Linux boxes would be X86 powered box.

Note that X86 Linux can run some of the Windows based software investments (half the performance penalty is not such a big deal when people can buy 3Ghz machines).

Pick up a magazine and with each issue you see more and more linux related articles(and software on the CD).

More of the same; majority of cover mounted CD/DVDs Magazines continue to contain large proportion of Windows based titles.

They just encourage dual boot scenarios and interconnectivity between the two OS platforms.
The mentality is to run as many applications on a single box. The purpose of a PC is a general machine not tied into a specific role.

My sample size;
1. Australia's PowerPlay DVD.
2. UK's PCFormat.
3. UK's PCPlus.
4. Australian PC User.
5. Australian Personal Computer (APC).
6. Australian PC World.
7. Australian PC Authority.
8. Computer Music.
9. PC Basics/PC Projects.
10. UK's PC Answers.
11. Australia's Computer Market.

Ever since APC’s release of Redhat 6 to Red Hat 8(inc. Mandrake 9) on pocket books series the Linux article’s proportions compared Windows remained much of the same.

X86 Linux developed it’s own market niche. On the entertainment side of things, the situation didn’t change much.  As one of slashdot user would say***, it’s all about games, games, games…  ***One of the reason why MS wouldn’t die.

[Hammer]

Nevertheless, the IBM 970 will give the PPC platform a boost in the performance area exactly when it is badly needed which will give people more options and will make the market more competetive which is good for all consumers.

I didn't state that the IBM's PPC 970 product is bad for consumers.

If these benchmarks are fake I guess time will tell.

Just make sure IBM delivers the product and it’s cost competitive, NOT just performance competitive.

I doubt IBM would produce a CPU that was crap as there would be no money in it, and they have a knack of making money.

Did you forget IBM's PS/2 era venture. The PS/2 era regime almost killed IBM.

Of course IBM will/or attempt to produce a product that is competitive. A scenario not much different to PPC 601 vs Pentium Classic days.  

[IonDeluxe]

If .NET and x86 technology is not what you are supporting, then what are you supporting?

Is that relevant?

Yes it is relevant,without a clear POV no-one can see where you are arguing from, or where you are trying to argue to, so discussion of a given subject is at best difficult.

I dont particularly care what magazines encourage, the fact is that 5 years ago these magazines had much less linux related product included in them if ANY.This shows a clear move away from windows.

The TCPA issue is also forcing a choice between windows and linux.TCPA certification costs money, something alot of those providing software for linux under GPL dont have.Also, the upcoming M$ products wont run if the hardware is not TCPA enabled so what Linux can run will be limited, as will all OS's that are not under TCPA certification.

anyway, all of this is speculation until it all happens, maybe we should take about it again in 5-10 years.

[smerf]

Hi,

You know we all sit around looking at results of the latest bing bang testers, and we all come down to the same conclusion is this a fair test between the bing bangs and bim bangs, and we all go shaking are heads as we walk away saying is this a true and accurate test.

Well the test is, which bing bang or bim bang will still be selling to the people tomorrow?

And the answer is the Bill Gates win bang is in the lead, how about that ladies and gentlemen?

The PPC bang went bits up when tested by maximumpc against the new Mac's. The intel bangs run by the win bangs banged the ppc bump out of the motherboard.

Things sure are gloomy in ppc bang land!

Stuck with Intel bang on a win blows bang computer and wondering will anybody challenge the damn beast.

Pretty soon it will be all win bang compooters and no challengers, what a sorry bit world it will be then.

[Hammer]

Yes it is relevant, without a clear POV no-one can see where you are arguing from,

Follow the thread.

I dont particularly care what magazines encourage,

IF that’s your intentions.  

the fact is that 5 years ago these magazines had much less linux related product included in them if ANY.

Some of those magazines also contained (and cover mounted) OS/2 Warp, QNX and X86 BeOS. There’s nothing new under the sun.   Refer back to what magazines encouraged.

The TCPA issue is also forcing a choice between windows and linux.

Microsoft's implementation of TCPA is the Palladium. This particular implementation is quite lame in Longhorn.

Operating system discussions (e.g. Linux vs Windows) is outside of this topic.