New pirate eBay goods: demo DVD

[_ThEcRoW]

Oh my God!!!. What is all this fuss about?. We are talking about demos and PD stuff, not commercial games or applications, so what's the problem?. The guy offering it only  sell it at a media/production cost, so i doubt he will become millionaire in the process. Really some people in this community never cease to amaze me.

[Tomas]

Like I said, he had five DVDs listed at 4 GBP each, 20 GBP total, approximately $35 USD.

Does that include shipping? if not, then i agree that this is a bit much if this is supposed to be a non profit project, unless he pressed the cds professionally instead of burning.

I can understand why Mindcandy must ask permission, since that is more of a commerical project.
The sad part there is that alot of the groups are now broken up and probably very hard to reach these days.
I already bought their pc demo compilation a couple of years back. My only complaint there was that it was ntsc only, which is in my opinion a very inferiour standard compared to pal. Good to see that they are now doing it in both pal and ntsc format.

[adz]

_ThEcRoW wrote:
Oh my God!!!. What is all this fuss about?. We are talking about demos and PD stuff, not commercial games or applications, so what's the problem?. The guy offering it only  sell it at a media/production cost, so i doubt he will become millionaire in the process. Really some people in this community never cease to amaze me.

Some people just love to :horse: Gives them a break from flogging something else :-D

[keropi]

yeah, every now and then there is a thread here: OMG, *PIRATES* selling adfs on ebay, along with kickstarts... let's report, it is piracy! Don't you think it is TOO LATE to worry about piracy? Do you think any author/company give's a rat's ass for 10+ year old software? Or you have the false satisfaction of thinking u do the "right thing"

I could not care less about dvd's with demo videos, the demos themselves, adf's, roms, you name it. Those ppl are doing a favor, making all this available to the public.

Do you report to the respected isp's sites that have roms,adf's etc??? have you any idea how many sitres are offering that content? Don't you think that if anyone cared, most would be closed and we would hear about that?

find something else to {bleep} about....

[Britelite]

Ok, let's get one thing straight, demos are NOT public domain even if you're allowed to copy them for free. So that means you're not allowed to do whatever you please with them.

I usually have no problem with my demos and stuff being included on DVD's, but I do think the authors of these DVD's should have the common courtesy of asking for permission, especially if they're going to sell these disks, no matter what amount of money is involved. And really, I don't care how much time someone spent on preparing the DVD, because that usually doesn't come near the time people spent on the demos themselves.

[Piru]

@keropi

Your personal opinion certainly is your own, but amiga.org doesn't tolerate copyright infrigiment or piracy.

(I'm not saying that this particular case would be, but it is a bit shady since money is asked)

[Tomas]

I usually have no problem with my demos and stuff being included on DVD's, but I do think the authors of these DVD's should have the common courtesy of asking for permission, especially if they're going to sell these disks, no matter what amount of money is involved.

So what should you then do when this said group does not exist anymore?? let the demos vanish from the face of the earth? Taking charge for the shipping and media costs does not equal selling, since the person who is doing it earn zero profit for the job of transferring the demos to video. Also this would mean that it would be just as illegal to host most of these older demos on the internet for free, as it does not state in the copyright that these files can be hosted on the internet medium. So i guess you should ask these non existing groups for permission for that as well then  :-x

The simple fact is that most demos are released in public domain for free, and can be distributed as much as you want as long as you do not make any PROFIT from it.

What about all the amiga magazines with demos cds back in the day? They also released a bunch of PD stuff without asking for permission and alot of people actually bought the demo magazines for the demo cd/floppy disk.

But as i said, i do not know about this particular case.. because $35 sounds a bit much to cover just the media costs, unless that also covers shipping to the whole world.

[Piru]

@Tomas

So what should you then do when this said group does not exist anymore??

I'd say you'd still be allowed to redistribute the original release as long as you don't ask money for it.

Nowadays party rules often have a clause that any release made at the compos must be redistributable by the organizers / others. Naturally there weren't such agreements during the early days, though.

Taking charge for the shipping and media costs does not equal selling, since the person who is doing it earn zero profit for the job of transferring the demos to video.

IMO without permission it's either totally free of charge or no distribution. Reversed: If you want to ask money, you need to have permission.

Also this would mean that it would be just as illegal to host most of these older demos on the internet for free, as it does not state in the copyright that these files can be hosted on the internet medium.

I don't see what is wrong with hosting the demos on the internet free of charge.

The simple fact is that most demos are released in public domain for free

Free yes, but I can't remember seeing any Public Domain demos.

What about all the amiga magazines with demos cds back in the day?

They had permission, clearly, except...

They also released a bunch of PD stuff without asking for permission and alot of people actually bought the demo magazines for the demo cd/floppy disk.

PD stuff can be released without permission. But unless if someothing clearly states it's Public Domain, you can't treat it as such.

[j_tramiel]

But taking their content and moving it another medium to try to sell it without their approval is lame.

The whole point of the demo scene was to spread the productions, if you can't get your head around that you are obviously missing the whole point of the scene.  PD doesnt need approval, it belongs to the public.  The original credits are there, whats the problem?

You had five DVDs listed at 4 GBP each, 20 GBP total, approximately $35 USD right now. There's no way it costs that much to burn five discs and mail them (discs only) to people in your own country. You were offering them for 1 GBP to your friends at the other forum, and you turned down someone else who asked about it and told them to buy it from you on eBay.

When was the last time you sold anything on ebay?  It isn't free you know!  Listing fees are a couple of quid (for a decent ad), they take a cut from every sale, Paypal take a cut from every sale, postage, media, printing.... it does add up you know.  I offered my mates one for a quid each at a loss (because they are mates).

If you're just trying to show off what you can do with the Amiga and spreading the word about the talents of demo coders, why not make use of this big distribution center for bits called the Internet? You could spread it around without selling it. Why not do it?

Totally lost the plot there didn't you?  I never claimed that I made the demos!  I wasn't showing off anything, I was helping to spread great demos (which is what they were created for).  I am using the Internet (ebay aint on a fu**ing BBS you know).  I was only selling for the work I put into it.

Like I said, you are a hypocrite, you complain because I sell something I took the trouble to make, but if I offered it to you as a free download we wouldn't get a peep out of you.  You are only {bleep}ing because you don't want to pay.  Well if you don't want to pay for it, you aint getting it, simple eh?

[Piru]

@ j_tramiel

Totally lost the plot there didn't you? I never claimed that I made the demos! I wasn't showing off anything, I was helping to spread great demos (which is what they were created for). I am using the Internet (ebay aint on a fu**ing BBS you know). I was only selling for the work I put into it.

Like I said, you are a hypocrite, you complain because I sell something I took the trouble to make, but if I offered it to you as a free download we wouldn't get a peep out of you. You are only {bleep}ing because you don't want to pay. Well if you don't want to pay for it, you aint getting it, simple eh?

So, if I understood you right: You have no problem of someone buying your DVD and putting the ISO available as download, or reselleing it as their own work with huge pricetag?

Good to know.

[CdreCommodore]

I offered my mates one for a quid each at a loss (because they are mates).

By offering them to your mates, you are avoiding the eBay and other fees you complained about it.

Regardless, it does not cost 4 GBP/$7 USD to burn a disc and post it locally, even with eBay and other fees.  In USD, the insertion fee would be $0.35, the buy-it-now $0.05, the final value fee $0.37, PayPal fee $0.49, the envelope $0.50, and the postage $1.10 (assuming the disc is in a jewel case).  That leaves 2.36 GBP/$4.14 USD extra.

Totally lost the plot there didn't you? I never claimed that I made the demos!

I didn't say that you did.

I wasn't showing off anything, I was helping to spread great demos (which is what they were created for).

I agree that's what they're for!  But you're trying to spread them by selling them.  They're not yours to sell.

Like I said, you are a hypocrite, you complain because I sell something I took the trouble to make, but if I offered it to you as a free download we wouldn't get a peep out of you.

You did not make any of the content.  You used WinUAE to create AVIs of the demos, and you used some ready-made software to create menus and burn it all to DVD.  That does not entitle you to sell it, and you very well know that you wouldn't be able to sell your work if you didn't have any content to add value to it.

You are only {bleep}ing because you don't want to pay. Well if you don't want to pay for it, you aint getting it, simple eh?

You said that you just want to spread great demos.  There are plenty of other ways to spread them without selling them.  There are numerous other fan compilation DVDs out there that can be downloaded right now, so distribution via the Internet is not a problem.

Your demand that you be paid for it indicates that you're not just a fan trying to create something interesting for others to enjoy, it indicates that you are trying to make money.  QED.

[j_tramiel]

This thread is getting ridiculous, but I don't have a problem with someone offering it as an ISO download.  Like I said previously, its aimed at people who don't have the know-how to use emulators, people who have lost their disks, etc.  

I would be pissed off with someone reselling it as their own work with a huge price tag, of course I would, don't be so facetious.  I am not and have never claimed that the demos were coded by me.  Why do you think the listing had a contents list that said who the coding groups were responsible for each production?  Get your facts straight before you start bad-mouthing people.

It's not like I'm ripping anyone off, or taking their livelihood is it?  I simply made a video of my favourite demos for old times sake, and I thought other people would like it too.

I had considered offering it as a download, but judging by the amount of knobs like you in the community, I shan't bother.

[CdreCommodore]

I had considered offering it as a download, but judging by the amount of knobs like you in the community, I shan't bother.

No, you didn't want to offer it at all.  On the other site you said this in response to requests for a torrent:  "Well I was hoping to make a bit of cash from it, so its on ebay now. Doing a torrent would be a bit like shooting meself in the foot."

On the other site you also said:

Don't bother reading that other forum guys, its starting to get nasty and personal.

That is the exact reason why I never use the bigger site forums, because they are full of LAMMERZZZZ !!!!!

No, it's not nasty and personal in the least, except for a few comments from you and your shill Bubbles.  The people who disagree with you haven't attacked you in any way, and have actually given you the benefit of the doubt.

Someone else conceded that what you're trying to do is not as bad as what those people selling compilations of commercial games are doing, and, hell, I don't even have any moral problems with old commercial Amiga stuff being spread around for free on the Internet anyway (though I'd never offer things here).

What's actually happening here is that you're not gaining any converts and you haven't been successful in starting a flame war, and you don't want your mates to see it.

[j_tramiel]

Regardless, it does not cost 4 GBP/$7 USD to burn a disc and post it locally, even with eBay and other fees. In USD, the insertion fee would be $0.35, the buy-it-now $0.05, the final value fee $0.37, PayPal fee $0.49, the envelope $0.50, and the postage $1.10 (assuming the disc is in a jewel case). That leaves 2.36 GBP/$4.14 USD extra.

If you had even bothered looking at the ebay listing before spouting off you would have seen that my ad contained 3 supresize pics, and a thumbnail gallery listing, this cost about £2 to list.  Get your facts straight!

But you're trying to spread them by selling them. They're not yours to sell.

Public Domain means released into the public, they now belong to the public and the authors have relinquished their rights (look at the works of Shakespeare, nobody complains at book companies selling his work)  Get your facts straight!

You did not make any of the content. You used WinUAE to create AVIs of the demos, and you used some ready-made software to create menus and burn it all to DVD. That does not entitle you to sell it, and you very well know that you wouldn't be able to sell your work if you didn't have any content to add value to it

I never went anywhere near WinUAE, all the demos were captured using an external MPEG encoder hooked up to a real Amiga.  Get your facts straight!

You said that you just want to spread great demos. There are plenty of other ways to spread them without selling them. There are numerous other fan compilation DVDs out there that can be downloaded right now, so distribution via the Internet is not a problem.

You are forgetting that not everyone has the ability or knowledge to download and burn DVD's.  Just because you know how to do something, don't assume everyone else can do it too.  Get your facts straight!

Your demand that you be paid for it indicates that you're not just a fan trying to create something interesting for others to enjoy, it indicates that you are trying to make money. QED.

DEMAND?  I don't demand anything, if you want it pay for it, if you don't.... well don't.

Did I say I was a Fan giving away freebies?? No. Of course I want to make money (but just a small amount for my trouble)  noones gonna get rich selling this type of cr*p are they now?  10-15 year old sprites jumping around the screen... get real, wake up and smell the coffee.

And its not like I am stealing anyones livelihood, or robbing anyone of business is it now.  Get your facts straight!

Honestly, this is pathetic, what possible reason would you or anyone else here have for taking such offence at this harmless bit of fun?

[Hattig]

It doesn't look illegal to me.

The demos were public domain.

It seems a couple of people can't realise this fact.

When I bought PD disks back in the 90s the fees were higher than disk+postage - they covered the time and effort in running the PD library. In this case £4 seems to be a reasonable price for the effort involved, seeing as around 20 people will probably buy it in the end.

It isn't piracy - this type of behaviour is exactly what the scene encouraged back in the day.

I doubt we'll ever see an apology though. I left AW.net to get away from this type of crass "i'm right, despite the facts" behaviour.

[j_tramiel]

Hallelujah!
Someone with some sense.

Most of the members here will probably be pleased to know that ebay removed my listing because someone reported it as piracy.

(and I never even sold any, so haha, have a good laugh at that)

Absolutely pathetic!