Amiga technology and patents ownership ?

[chiark]

I've stayed out of this until now...

I vote Sir Alan Sugar as the saviour...

No, he's not got a clue when it comes to technology - he can't evaluate what will or will not be successful and relies on people to tell him what will be successful.  Those people let him down: look at the emailer phones that were supposed to make amstrad their millions.

Amstrad, to me, means cheap electronics that jump on the "me too" bandwagon with no innovation.  The approach sounds almost Tramiel-esque: I want it cheaper, not better...  Someone else can innovate, we'll take it mass market :-(

However, the guy does have business acumen and a personality which might be useful ;-) .  If you could mix in a bit of Jay Miner's original flair and insight I think you'd be laughing.

What made the Amiga were the custom chips and DMA which at the time was revolutionary compared to the horribly crippled PC architecture.  The 68000 chip probably helped too as compared to x86s of the day, it was beautifully simple to work with.

The appeal of decent graphics and sound was obvious, and took the Amiga into the home as a games machine, coupled with a useful OS.  The games never caught me greatly, it was tinkering with the machine that I enjoyed.

Today, I think there's a market for a decent OS with the "given" that it'll support superb multimedia.  The appeal is an easy to use, safe, secure OS that's understandable by one person with average interest in the field of computers.  

Couple it with hardware that doesn't require huge cooling and you've made something appealing.  Make it instant on/off, wrap up some decent games, internet access and office software and you're on to a winner providing you make it look appealing and inviting.  It would be a "family computer" that could grow with the kids: as they progressed from games, they'd get into the other side of the machine.  This is exactly what happened with me and the 64.

AmigaOS 3.x is already fragmenting too much in my opinion due to the stuff that's had to be bolted on.  Look at the RTG stuff.  Look at sound.  Look at the network stacks.  It's forked ;-) .  The forking and choice is what I feel is truly preventing Linux from taking off.  Which distro?  Which desktop?  Gnome or KDE?  It's part of the power of the FOSS movement, but it's also a weakness.

The beauty of AOS 1,2 and 3 is that I know what every file in the OS does.  It's understandable, it's straightforward, it's simple, it's beautiful!  Even a base install of WinXP isn't.  Linux or BSD distros can be close, but that's getting worse :-(

There's no particularly new insights in this post, admittedly, but the Amiga makes computing fun and understandable, and encourages hacking in the traditional sense of the word.  I believe there's still a great appeal in that approach...

[bloodline]

Waccoon wrote:

Anyone:  Steve Jobs

He's a major A.H.  Profit or no, there's no way would I want someone like that to re-invent the Amiga, because I would probably not like it at all.

Sure he is a huge A.H. but we were talking about saving the Amiga Brand... not about making products that would appeal to the Amiga community. ;-)

[Waccoon]

chiark:  What made the Amiga were the custom chips and DMA which at the time was revolutionary compared to the horribly crippled PC architecture. The 68000 chip probably helped too as compared to x86s of the day, it was beautifully simple to work with.

I'm not really sure why people keep saying this, as using the hardware directly caused tond of problems that haunt Amigans to this day.  The games and demos were fun, but Workbench is what made the system a real computer.

Then again, I was never a hacker.  I like to do things properly.  :-)

chiark:  The forking and choice is what I feel is truly preventing Linux from taking off. Which distro? Which desktop? Gnome or KDE?

Yeah, Linux is still a geek OS.  There's little unity and cooperation on the desktop.  People have been telling me for years that Windows would die any day, now.  Linux people just don't understand interfaces at all.

When do I get a new FTP program with resume upload that doesn't lock up ten times per session?  Oh no, just the same old standard with more eye candy.  Linux people have no intuition at all.

chiark:  There's no particularly new insights in this post, admittedly, but the Amiga makes computing fun and understandable, and encourages hacking in the traditional sense of the word. I believe there's still a great appeal in that approach...

The best thing about AmigaOS is how easily it could go between the CLI and GUI.  Windows does everything with a GUI.  Apple does the same to a point, because some things can't be done at all in the GUI.  Linux is only really useful if you use the CLI, as there's no real standards for the GUI, and each distro has a different pack of tools that are all crippled in one way or another.

Bloodlin:  Sure he is a huge A.H. but we were talking about saving the Amiga Brand... not about making products that would appeal to the Amiga community.

Ah, so you just want a salesman, and not engineers.  :-D

[bloodline]

Waccoon wrote:

Bloodline:  Sure he is a huge A.H. but we were talking about saving the Amiga Brand... not about making products that would appeal to the Amiga community.

Ah, so you just want a salesman, and not engineers.  :-D

:-D

Yeah, I guess so... no one comapny could afford the same number of CPU designers as intel/AMD, or the same number of GPU designers as ATI/nVidia or the same number of chipset designers as any of the above... it just makes sense to use thier hardware and repackage it a way (a pretty aluminium case?) that makes it more attractive to the customer... a well thought out OS and a great suite of productivity/home apps as standard for a good price is the way to do it.

[chiark]

Waccoon wrote:
I'm not really sure why people keep saying this, as using the hardware directly caused tond of problems that haunt Amigans to this day.  The games and demos were fun, but Workbench is what made the system a real computer.

But, back in the day, it was the only way to get performance out of the machine...  There was no other option.  The hardware was documented, so it was definitely expected for people to hit it.  If CBM had not wanted people to use it, there'd have been no information available and a strict "use the stuff we provide in ROM" approach.  

Even with hindsight, I think games/demos were right to hit the hardware.  Was was wrong was the way that AGA clung to compatability by bolting things on: the opportunity was there to do so much more, but they fumbled it.  Perhaps they should have made the 1200 more like the 128, which could be booted in 64 emulation mode.  Sure, I know about the early startup screen but that wasn't perfect...

Then again, I was never a hacker.  I like to do things properly.  :-)

Agreed.  But when the only way to make something work is to hit the hardware, it sorta is the proper way.  The first call in all demos that I wrote was to tell the OS to politely keep its nose out so it is "proper" ;-) .  But I fully agree, doing just that ties you into a certain architecture.

The best thing about AmigaOS is how easily it could go between the CLI and GUI.  Windows does everything with a GUI.  Apple does the same to a point, because some things can't be done at all in the GUI.  Linux is only really useful if you use the CLI, as there's no real standards for the GUI, and each distro has a different pack of tools that are all crippled in one way or another.

You know, I think you could be right.  I use the CLI extensively, but on the other hand the wb is useful for "real" work.

Couple that with the simple structure (devs: libs: l: s: c: ...) and I think that's what appeals to me.

Sorry for taking this off topic, but thanks for the discussion all the same :-D ...  This was once about patents - hope no-one minds the off topic too much.

[justthatgood]

 :madashell:

Grr, I've been yelled at too many times for being a cynic. I've been told all I want to do is taint people with the poison of negativity when I mention anything at all wrong with the Amiga world. Okay now we have more people people that are admitting that they don't want the sugar coating crap shoved down their throats any more.

Is it okay now to chuck the "Positive Touchy Feelings in AmigaLand" stuff and be able to get real.  Personally myself, I'm a MUCH better worker when I'm angry (which really doesn't happen all that often), getting stuff done very quickly.  True if I'm not stuff will get completed eventually, but being all PO'ed is going to light a fire under you. Face it, anger people take action. Brash, cutthroat, livid take no prisoners business guys end up eating steak at the end of the day, while the mild and meek still with hot dogs.

Did you take the red pill, the blue pill, or the sugar pill? Only you know.

[BigBenAussie]

Ok. You don't like Steve Jobs......
Well how about.....
(drumroll)

Steve Wozniak.

The Woz could sort all this rubbish out....
Who could possibily be a better choice?

He has publically spoken out about their being a lack of choice in the market place and a need for something more from operating systems. So he has vision.

He's got the goodwill of the entire computing planet and he's probably the nicest guy in tech.
I don't know what he's doing right now, but this might be something he could get his teeth into. What could be more fun then raising a cult computer from the ashes?
It would make headlines, and he and Amiga would be used in the same sentence as Jobs and Mac. I think he could make a success out of it like no other.

If he couldn't buy the whole shebang(including Commodore) outright, he probably wouldn't have any trouble raising the money.

Hell, he would probably have fun engineering the next Amiga himself.

Has anyone had any success in contacting him? Seems he apologised for being flooded with e-mail last I tried.

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.  
We have no weiners!!! We have no buns!!! Get the Woz to run this hotdog stand!!!

[bloodline]

Woz is a clever chap, but I'd rather have Dave Haynie... or even both!!! :-D

[tonyvdb]

I live in Canada, but folowed the Amiga news closely at the time. It was a sad day when comodore went under. The North americain office of Comodore was most likely the main reason for them going under. Their coustomer service was just terrable and the marketing was very poor.

[boing]

>with Amiga Inc in... well, whatever state they are in
>... there is no one defending any of this.

 Exactly.  I doubt they could weather a legal clash over the rights or ownership of the AmigaOS, let alone trademark.  Gateway might (if they felt it was worth it- and if you're not stealing any patents, they may not) but I suspect by now they (Gateway) too suspect they might not actually have actual legal ownership of the OS.  And don't expect them to admit to it easily.

Wayne, do you know what constitutes defense of a trademark for legal purposes?  I think it's up to Amino to find and slap down the infringement. I notified Petro about Play's illegal use of the Boing ball, which helped keep it viable as a logo/ttrademark. I'm sure you would help your case, and help set some precedent if you sent registered mail to Amino.




> I'd imagine that Gateway would have done thier
>homework. I think there is little chance that the
> corporate sharks, er, I mean, lawyers would have
>over-looked something as obvious as that.

 This was international legal wrangling combined with language obstacles, multiplied by complex technical documents.  And tons of paperwork with a complicated history.  Who knows how it happened.  What matters "uncharted", is not your idle opinions, but what the courts found.

 And based upon the posting on page 1, it is clear that the patents were transferred, but not the ownership of the OS. Looking at the "new Amiga" hardware proffered now, little or no Amiga hardware is present so those patents are not likely an issue.  I think at best the OS would be considered a copyright issue, but am unsure.  Remember, software patents are a new (and IMHO, insane) concept.  The AmigaOS existed and CBM went under almost a decade before such absurd software-patent legislation was passed.  So it should remain under a copyright not a patent.  And we don't see anything about Escom having legal ownership of it to actually sell to Gateway do we?


>Therfore Escom lost the law suit.

Which again makes me wonder why anybody believed that Gateway/Amino ever had legal right to AmigaOS.  We need a class action.


If anybody says the patents are expired, show your evidence.


> Patents only last 10 years, so anything that C= had is
>no longer patented.

You keep on believing that.  :-)



>Hyperion licenced Amiga OS rights (

Ah, but licensed from WHO?  If Escom didn't have full exclusive rights to it, then Gateway couldn't possibly have bought it from them.  So you have to wonder if Hyperion should have checked the court records more closely.


Speaking of insanity, what ever happened of the sales of the Pan-Asian Amiga rights to Lotus-Pacific?  Huh?  There's a can of worms for Gateway and Amiga/Amino :-) if anybody wanted to dig around.

[koaftder]

All this talk about who would make the ultimate CE0 of amiga inc reminds me of fantasy football. Need to put up a site thats a good mix of fu

[chiark]

That's pretty much what it is.  What's wrong with that :-D ?

[snowman040]

Wacoon: so let's say that this legal, Amiga OS, IP, patents, brands, rights hell-mess takes 50mil$ to solve. Would another 50mil$ for development of 3-4 motherboards, 5-6 related products be enough ?

boing: but then, who owns Amiga OS exclusive rights ? :-)

[Hyperspeed]

justthatgood: It's the angry people eating steak I most suspect of having mad cow disease!

I do think a venture capitalist needs to be approached, given the lowdown (including the potential for anger to flare in the community) then ask them for a few million for research so we can get a taste of what is needed. I can't believe that Amiga Inc. (whoever they are now...) is not communicating with the public anymore, what is Hyperion doing these days - they have no PR relations at all!

As for blue, red and sugar pills - I'll take the (Alan Sugar/) pill!

[Waccoon]

If CBM had not wanted people to use it, there'd have been no information available and a strict "use the stuff we provide in ROM" approach.

I recall Commodore's documentation was rife with "DO NOT DO THIS" disclaimers.  Programmers didn't listen.  Hence, even adding more memory or a hard drive caused Gurus left and right.  When an A500 game doesn't work on an A500, you know something isn't right.  Hell, look at copy protection.  A lot of times, floppy issues prevented A500 games from working on an A500, and you still had to type in codes from blood-red cardstock.  Thank God developers don't do things like that, anymore.

Hitting the hardware was fine for demos and games, but nobody really expects a hard-coded A500 demo to work on an A4000, given that many PC demos won't work on modern PCs, either.  Game compatibility is usually pretty good if it is friendly to CPU caches.

Workbench apps are a different story.  I recall only a few WB programs that really hit the hardware (Audition4 comes to mind), and I don't really think it was necessary to get decent performance.

Besides, demos and games look pretty much the same on every platform since the developers make their own GUI tools.  There's little consistency, and little "Amiga" about it, other than your typical, "I can do more playfields than you can."  How about all 'dem lousy PC ports, eh?  ;-)

Would another 50mil$ for development of 3-4 motherboards, 5-6 related products be enough?

Yeah, but how do you make the money back?  Software is flexible, hardware has to be sold quickly.

Also, $50 mil dumped into PPC hardware != $50 mil into hardware that already exists.  Why spend tons of money to get some idealistic ball-and-chain that is only marginally better than a very well-tested solution that already sells by the hundreds of thousands?  Be coudn't hack it, and that was before the big venture into "integration" that cut x86 motherboard manufacturing costs drasticly while adding tons of standard features.

If you're talking about modifying a PC machine to, for example, provide the anti-piracy BIOS lockout, then $50 mil is way over budget.  But then, it's debatable as to whether said lockouts actually thwart piracy.  Lousy drivers are probably good enough.  :-)

[Hyperspeed]

One could argue that piracy helped make the Amiga, as it has done lately with the Playstation!

It probably made VHS what it is today also!

Really though - AmigaOne... what's that chip inside it for that offers lockout protection? Is that the only custom hardware it has!?