Boycott & computer products.

[takemehomegrandma]

BTW, US boycotts of french products because of the french opinion in this conflict is not a very good idea IMO. It might make sense for an American citizen that has been filled with President Bush's domestic nationalistic wartime propaganda. Sure. But to the rest of the world this is just a ridiculous. It will only be counter-productive and will add fuel to the fire. Nothing good can come out of this.

[Dietmar]

@MarkTime:

While I have no idea what "notification" is, changes in NATO shouldn't surprise anyone. During the cold war, smaller countries couldn't afford to speak their mind, upsetting a careful balance. Now they can, and I think that is a healthy democratic clarifying process. For the US position, it's a loss of taken-for-granted influence, but they'll get over it. For France and Germany, the same waking-up process has happend in the EU.

> do you mean to suggest, avoiding the possibility of an 'impression' being created was a good reason to torpedo the effectiveness of NATO?

NATO has outlived itself if it remains a primarily military alliance, after removal of the confrontational situation of the cold war. To answer your question, both sides have bluffed and overplayed their cards, but it was a minor incident. The incident has highlighted divergence in NATO, it didn't create it.

> all the countries acted without honor to some extent ... the U.S. for not demanding the UN vote and allowing it to be veto'd

That was a sensible end-game decision to avoid total destruction of the UN (as would have happend if going to war after loosing a vote, openly violating the UN charta). The US administration is to blame much earlier, for its overall approach: extremely poor diplomatic skills, arbitrarily shifting focus, shady evidence, and, primarily, dissing the rest of the world by announcing the outcome at the beginning of the process: "if the UN doesn't take up it's responsibilty, we will, with a coalition of the willing".

[Dietmar]

> Since the second world war the United Nations has served as a security for the world stability. It has been a forum of diplomacy in which nations could discuss problems.

The ironic aspect is that, inspite of all the gloomy talk about the UN being destroyed, this process has considerably strengthened the UN: for the first time, you have had massive public interest: for months, there was coverage worthy of presidental elections. Battles in the security councily, success, failure, hasty statements, suspense, second-guessing, instant polls etc. Foreign ministers are stars now. Before, nobody knew who was the foreign minister of France or England. What was sidelined before by bottomless lack of public interest is sidelined now only by intention. But the public is interested: terrific entertainment. That's good news for anybody who thinks that the UN is a good idea (and I guess that includes the USA, considering that the UN was conceived by the USA).

[Hammer]

Many Americans seems to think that the US government have the world opinion with them in this case, and that France among others are some loners with a strange agenda. I am afraid that is not the case. The US president went to war without the UN's approval.

United States seem to be using the old UN resolution i.e. to finish off the 1991 job.

USA has some countries with them (much thanks to alliances and agreements from the past, partly through threats, and they have also paid some good dollars to others for some support).

France has stated (in effect) that it will unconditionally veto any resolution that involves the use of force. Reason for this; France (and Russia) has trade deals with Saddam’s regime, which involves billions of dollars.  

1) Damaged the United Nations. This is extremely severe to the future of this world.

Already damaged before the current conflict due to self-interest within security members e.g. France is more dependent on Middle East oil than the United States.

2) Caused a crack in Nato. This is extremely severe to the post WW2 western countries.

It will take the next top 14~15 countries(including United Kingdom) to equal United States in military expenditure. With such magnitude it's no wonder that the US was involve in this current conflict. US government does worry about US public option btw.

3) Caused a crack in the European Union, which is bad for the entire future Europe.

It only solidifies some major parts of the old British Empire i.e. United States, United Kingdom and Australia.

4) Caused cracks in many governments. Some good UK ministers has even resigned.

To be specific, UK's Labour government.

Let's just say that I think that the world was a better and safer place back in Clinton's days.

Appeasement diplomacy has it’s limits (e.g. WW2 as an example).

5) Further damaged the stability in the Arab world.

Israel/Palestine issues would be the brick that would weight down US relationship with Arab countries.  It would seems that the cursed ‘old world’ conflict has bitten US.

I do recall (from history books), the original founding of United States is for people fleeing the ‘old world’ problems. I just don’t why US are involving such a mess (involvement started around  WWII).

IF nations develop alternative to petroleum based engines, this ‘old world’ problems could be reduced i.e.
1. France wouldn’t have same level of self-interest to veto the new resolution.  
2. United States wouldn’t have same level of self-interest in the Middle East i.e. wasting billion dollars in aid (a.k.a buying friends) or being involved with the mess.  

[Hammer]

Linux = some pinko euroweany hack

Note that the Microsoft of Linux is an US based company i.e. Red Hat Inc. Also, Linus works for Transmeta btw.

[toRus]

I thought I would never post political comments in a computer portal. I just couldn't resist with all the BS I see in this forum.
First of all, USA is not a free country (certainly not more free than most others). If I go to a Bush's political meeting and shout "You are a fool" or "You are a murderer" I would be arrested. USA has a political system that Americans call "democracy". It's different than that of many coutries. So what ? Is it much better having the illusion that you are free; free to buy and watch porn movies while having CIA over your head when using PGP in emails ?

The major concern is not that USA has illegally forced into Iraq disregarding most other countries of this world. It's that there are American people who can easily believe the propaganda and the lies a child could have spot.  Do you honestly believe that USA media are more objective than Iraq's ? We are watching USA's media funny reports on war and wonder if we live in another planet.

Nevertheless, the moment USA government will declare "heroes" the paid soldiers it sent to die for unlawful interests you should know that the rest of the world will remember them as murderers. George "the bomber" Bush doesn't seem to care how many of them will die - why should I ? Don't take me wrong. I value human life more than anything but my mind and prayers are only for innocent Iraqians victims and people who lost their lifes defending their country from the intruders.


I thank God I am NOT an American.

[Waccoon]

Being American, all I can say is I didn't vote for Bush.  But, that doesn't matter since we have a "representitive" democracy, anyway.

As for boycotts, why is it people will bitch about foreign products because of a stupid firecracker show on the other side of the world, but the same people will still pay an outrageous $18 for a CD or $25 for a DVD?  I don't think anybody really knows what boycotting is all about.  (Stealing via Kazaa doesn't count as a boycott)!!!

BTW, I just traded in my all-American Saturn for an off-the-boat, 100% Japanese Subaru Impreza.  Why?  Because GM has reduced Saturns to total s*** over the last few years.  Buying a Subaru is my way of telling the Big Three to improve the quality of their cars.

Of course, my dad just bought two new Fords this year, too.  *Sigh*

BTW, never forget stupid people exist all over the world.  The British are supporting this moronic war, contrary to the will of the people, after all.  And remember that Canadian politician that got fired for calling Bush a moron?  Come on...

[smerf]

Hi toRus,

I thank God that you are not American to. First of all America probably does show some propaganda during a war so that just in case the enemy are watching are news channels they will be confused in what is going on.

Secondly no you won't be arrested for calling President Bush a fool in America. The police may come in and drag you out because you are making a scene but that would be all (in other words you would be asked forcibly to make like a tree and leave).

Third of all and see if you can do this in your country, if the American people decide that the President is not doing what they want or is exceeding his powers than there is a thing called impeachment, this is where we get rid of the bum. So far this has not happened to Mr. Bush and you want to know why, it is because we like what he is doing, completing the job that should have been done in 1991, freeing the people of Iraq, getting rid of a bully dictator that has tortured, raped and killed many people since his reign of terror. I said it before and I will say it again, the people of America have woke up since 9/11 and we don't like what we saw, keep your murderous cowardly killers away from our shores because certianly when we find out where they are from a rain of fire will come down on you courtesy of the red white and blue.

USA government will declare "heroes" the paid soldiers it sent to die for unlawful interests

Sorry dude but these guys are hero's they fight for our country by the Presidents orders, some of them may even think that this war is wrong since we were not struck first by Iraq, I don't like not being struck first but after 9/11 and seeing 3000 people go down with the towers, I have no mercy for people like saddam, a person who kills, and tortures people, and children for just speaking out against him. A person where even the generals who work next to him are afraid to give him bad news because they might get executed. Today while watching the news I saw to little Iraq girls smiling as they walked away from our "paid soldiers" with food and water, both girls were between the ages of 10 and 12 and they looked happy during this terrible time. This is what it is about dude, freedom for the children, people not living in fear. It is not about oil, it's not about riches it is about people that are beginning to look happy, smiling as we go through their city. Another fearful dictator that bit the dust. Can you spell g o n e.

If I didn't think President Bush was right, and so pissed off at the french and germans because I thought they were our friends, I wouldn't be on this column.

Hey by the way did you see all the red marks on that girls face from those rubber bullets. Its on display at www.msn.com, I love those Oakland police and how they put down those BS peace demonstrations. Tell me if these people are so involved with peace, why did they throw soda pop bottles and rocks at the Oakland police. Seems a little bit of a warrior type attitude to me

Smerf

I would drop a million bombs on a country if I knew that it would free their children and bring smiles on their faces.

[smerf]

Hi Siggy,

So you really liked my saying about gay natzi's, I thought it was pretty good to.

Can't really afford Nikes, I am not one of those rich moviestar liberals that could afford such an expensive pair of shoes.

You have to watch real careful at CNN news with Peter Jennings.

Did you know that it is impossible to put your foot in your mouth, we took a survey today at work, and 0 out of 100 workers there could not put there foot in their mouth. So all 100 of us want to know How did you get your foot in your mouth?

Smerf

"Nikes are just to expensive"

[smerf]

Hi blobrana,

Lets look at this logically, WMD is there some where, I just don't believe that a lying sack of Sh__t like saddam got rid of them.

Saddam was never a real treat to America directly, but indirectly he could have sold stuff to other terrorist orginizations who would have been more than happy to use them against us or against some of our other allies, like Israel.

Yes we will get rid of the evil dictator, but then the other good that will come of it is that the children of Iraq will have freedom. This generation in Iraq has seen to much terror to really salvage. Hopefully the next generation will be happier.

Smerf

[iamaboringperson]

boycotting... bah

buy because of a products quality/features not because of dumb political reasons

[smerf]

Hi MarkTime,

Don't know if you noticed it but we got the worst of it during 9/11. Now if this don't make you angry and you think of Perl Harbor, well that was nothing, the Japanese only attacked a military base, civilian casulties were really collateral damage. But these terrorists from the Middle East, the one who claims we are the great satan's came in here and destroyed 2 buildings and murdered 3000 civilians without even a warning of an attack. Yes if I thought our gov't was going overboard then I would say so, because I am neither Democrat or Republican, I vote for the best man running and this time I believe that America has to make a very strong statement, that we are no longer wimpy ass liberals that wil stand around and say golly geez maa they only killed 3000 people this time, lets wait till they at least get to 9000 before we tell them foul.

Wake up and smell the bombs, it is better for them to fall over there than over here where our children are, at least we try to miss civilian's do they? 9/11

How many children were on those airplanes?

How many military men did they take out in 9/11?

What was their purpose?

Where was their warning?

When are you going to wake up and realize that these people don't care about your policies they just want to kill you and Americans?

Peace Bro, a lot of good men have died and are still dying so that you can have it.

A corrupt gov't in America can be dealth with by impeachment, the people still have the power.

America I believe in it because our leaders have the best information network in the world and by that can make more educated decisions where I being the low man on the totem pole don't see everything that they see or hear.

Smerf

 

[Siggy]

@Wacoon

BTW, I just traded in my all-American Saturn for an off-the-boat, 100% Japanese Subaru Impreza. Why? Because GM has reduced Saturns to total s*** over the last few years. Buying a Subaru is my way of telling the Big Three to improve the quality of their cars.

Funny thing is, you're probably also promoting American industry more by doing it. That Subaru was more than likely built in country - and the Ford your dad bought is more than likely built out of the country.

Thats why boycotts are silly on products are so silly in this day and age.

I could boycott a bunch of products and the only people who will really suffer are some taiwanese workers.. The corporations that own the product may well be picking up revenue on my second choice.

But buying something based on quality is a smart move and the way to go.

Siggy.

[Siggy]

So you really liked my saying about gay natzi's, I thought it was pretty good to.

No, I was saying it was laughable. A subtle difference, then again I'm sure with all the money you'll save from your boycott, you'll be able to save up the sheckles and buy a clue.

Can't really afford Nikes, I am not one of those rich moviestar liberals that could afford such an expensive pair of shoes.

Charlton Heston appreciates your kind words and broad stereotyping..

Perhaps I was being a bit obtuse -- spend your dollars on a U.S. product that runs sweat shops in the third world to turn a profit.... Thats a far lesser evil - there, that's it...

Did you know that it is impossible to put your foot in your mouth, we took a survey today at work, and 0 out of 100 workers there could not put there foot in their mouth.

Why not get Geraldo can draw you a map if you have trouble finding either of these items ?  If you need help finding your a$$ or your elbow, be sure to drop me a line.

Nice to see you're spending your time productively and doing your bit to help the economy. Now if all 100 of you will kindly pick up your brooms and go back to work.....

Siggy.

[gary_c]

But these terrorists from the Middle East, the one who claims we are the great satan's came in here and destroyed 2 buildings and murdered 3000 civilians without even a warning of an attack.

Right, but the Afghanistan war was to avenge that, remember? This is Iraq we're talking about. There's little or no evidense that Al Kaeda has or had any connection to Iraq (despite Bush's attempt to link them in order to justify the invasion). I read of one instance of a Bin Laden cohort paying a visit to Sadam. OK, then, let's bomb Iraq. I imagine the rest of the countries on his travel itinerary are quaking in fear as we speak.

When are you going to wake up and realize that these people don't care about your policies they just want to kill you and Americans?

Saddam had ten years to do that since the last Gulf War. Why didn't he? And, by the way, where are all those WMDs? I saw they thought they found some chemical agents, but it turned out to be pesticides. But I'm sure there are massive stockpiles just waiting to be found. But as to your point, why exactly do you think these people want to kill Americans? Surely nothing to do with our foreign policies?

Peace Bro, a lot of good men have died and are still dying so that you can have it.

Don't tell me Americans (you forgot to mention the women that have died, which says a lot about your mindset.) are dieing in Iraq to protect my freedom. Iraq never threatened my freedom -- their own citizens' but not mine. Iraq may have threatened oil companies' freedom to drain the reserves, but I wouldn't know about that. What I worry about now is that, with Bush, Rumsfeld and the rest having whipped America into a fear frenzy and pissed off a whole new batch of nothing-to-lose types in the Middle East, my freedom is apt to be further encroached on as the Homeland Security monolith (geez, what a monstrosity) gets geared up and self-fulfilling and as a new generation of terrorists is spawned by the latest US incursion.  (Remember that Bin Ladin's stated reason for 9/11 was to get the US military presence out of Saudi Arabia, which he considered sacrosanct. We sure fixed that problem, didn't we?)

Well, it's hard to know what to include here, and it's all for nothing anyway, judging from what's already been written. All I can say is that those goofball Freedom Fries and "boycott France" ideas only show how utterly stupid Americans can be at times. (As if there was anything French about a french fry, and as if any good whatsoever could come of boycotting "French" products.) Not to say that there aren't stupid people elsewhere, but, you know, when Americans do things, they tend to do them on a grand scale. ;-)

-- gary_c

[toRus]

Hi Smerf,

So far this has not happened to Mr. Bush and you want to know why, it is because we like what he is doing

So you are free to vote between Clinton (invador of Yougoslavia) and George "the bomber" Bush (invador of Iraq). LOL !! Now that is freedom ! Get a clue, you have no options. Regardless which part wins the outcome will be the same. Terroririse foreign countries in order to ensure your economical and political interests.

... freeing the people of Iraq, getting rid of a bully dictator that has tortured, raped and killed many people since his reign of terror

Nobody asked you to play this role and you certainly didn't have the right.

Sorry dude but these guys are hero's they fight for our country by the Presidents orders, some of them may even think that this war is wrong since we were not struck first by Iraq,

They are not anything more than paid killers dude. They shoot and kill on orders. It's their job.

Today while watching the news I saw to little Iraq girls smiling as they walked away from our "paid soldiers" with food and water, both girls were between the ages of 10 and 12 and they looked happy during this terrible time.

You should better watch a Hollywood movie because it would have more trues than what your media channels are showing you.
This is the same policy USA has followed for decades. Destroy a country then give chocolates to kids while bullish economically and politically the country (and its nearby region). Ask them if they have any choice but cheer for Americans now.

Wake up dude. It has nothing to do with "liberation" and freedom. It has to do with power, money and oil.

I never liked Saddam. I don't like me as much as Bush (or any other USA president). That doesn't give you the right to invade in another country, especially when United Nations and many contries oppose to this.

I love those Oakland police and how they put down those BS peace demonstrations. Tell me if these people are so involved with peace, why did they throw soda pop bottles and rocks at the Oakland police.

I am sure you would prefer to have them shot with real bullets, wouldn't you ? There is nothing like peace. if you don't get this, take your gun and your cowboy hat and start shooting at people.