REQ: Someone Mass-Produce Scandoubler/Flicker Fixers

[xaccrocheur]

Just here to say I badly want one, and would definitely buy such a board. External, Two cables. Hidable. Cheap. :crazy: Please.

[doctorq]

Dr_Righteous wrote:
I don't think it'd be a problem to sell 1000+ of these things if they listed at US$100.

Hold on a bit here. Even though around 20-25 people here state that they need a scandoubler BADLY, doesn´t mean that there is a market for 1000 scandoublers, and for sure, there isn´t 40 people that would buy one every time one of the 25 people has bought one. A more realistic sellable amount of scandoublers would be around 150-200 scandoublers.

[Cefa]

Sadly it seems that most of those scandoubler chips only do 16 bit RGB 565. Which is kind of sad begause it would be nice to have a alternative to the only 24bit scandoubler i know of the picasso cards.

Cheers

[JimS]

I was looking at an FPGA experimenter board recently. It's already got the SDRAM on it. In addition, it's got a VGA port, although it is only 3 bit's per color. The companies web site has a dual port ram controller module for the fpga. There ought to be enough left to inplement a scan doubler in there.. XESS.COM

Personally, I'd rather have one that fit into the video slot, or dropped under Denise.

[Ronmor]

I was looking for a SD/FF and found this site http://www.genao.com/converters.htm (first Board)
 with a board that might work. I have plenty of old 1084 monitor cables that have 23 pin D plug but I don't known enough about the circuit of the SD/FF to known if the quality of the output would be ok.
                Ron
Sorry I gave the wrong site address, it should work now.

[Waccoon]

I know nothing about hardware design, but is it possible to make an all-in-one scandoubler that would work on other old computers, to help broaden the market a bit?

[bubba]

One could try an RGB scaler like this one:

http://www.inlineinc.com/products/sigproc/pdf/IN1401.pdf

Technically, it should work as a scan doubler.

-bubba

[Dr_Righteous]

@ Doctorq:

I whole heartedly disagree with that logic. See, we have this awesome website out there called Ebay, which recieves far more retrocomputing traffic than Amiga.org. There are probably a couple thousand people in the ACTIVE Amiga community, not counting those WE never see. And I'd be willing to bet many more who can't use that Amiga in their closet because they dropped their monitor last spring cleaning.

No doubt these this would sell, tho it might take a little time. However, the costs increase with repeated production runs, especially short ones. Just like in printing, you print alot more than you need because paper is cheaper than going back on the press.

@ Bubba
Those things are about $2000... WAY outta the ballpark.

@ MskoDestny
My bad, I didn't look closely enough to see it was only one line from each signal (well, 2 from blue). I'm not sure however whether the inputs on the TV5700 are analog or digital... The AL250 is digital so a ADC would be required.

P.S. This post was really targeted at someone who could handle such a production run... Say, Individial Computers or Elbox, etc.

[Dr_Righteous]

Hmm, Phillips has some VADC & VDAC's that might be helpful... Both are triple 8-bit (24-bit). TDA8754 (ADC) and TDA8771A (DAC).
http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/markets/mms/products/analog/key_solutions/converters/index.html

[BadBigBen]

Why reinvent the wheel?

Take a look at this:

http://www.converters.tv/products/converters/rgb_converters/41.html

http://www.highway.net.au/parts/converters/1488.html
http://www.highway.net.au/parts/converters/1495.html

[doctorq]

@Dr_Righteous

I didn´t expect you to understand my logic, but I still stand by my belief, that there isn´t a market for 1000+ scandoublers at a price of 100 USD.

Taking the eBay buyers into the figures isn´t that clever either IMHO; because someone is selling a scandoubler and it gets a lot of interest, doesn´t make it a stable market.

Would you start a production run of even 250 scandoublers based on this thread AND "potential" buyers from eBay, if you had the facilities to it???

[Dr_Righteous]

@BadBigBen

They don't process enough color information. CGA is 4bpp color... AGA is up to 24bpp color.

@doctorq

I see your point. And perhaps that's why no one has done it... No one believes in this platform anymore, so why would anyone take the chance. Would I do it? Yes... If I had the capital. I'm convinced there's enough market for it and knowing something sells better when it's cheaper. Price breaks come with volume purchase. A single production run is alot cheaper than repeated runs.

Anyway, all that said hows this for a design..?

Amiga Video input to triple 8-bit VADC to a PLD (or three smaller ones) programed to repeat scanned input twice out (per line) to triple 8-bit VDAC out to SVGA. Debounced toggle switch to turn off doubling program in PLD for native VGA modes. Clock signal doubled via flip-flop.

[bonkers]

I just bought a DCE internal scandoubler a few months back but I would definetly be interested in another one, preferably external.

I guess the main cost in developing a SS/FF would be creating the design for it, but why can't a company like Elbox who used to produce one according to amiga-hardware just remake 200-300 of their old design.

[Legerdemain]

Well, I think it is a good idea, although very uncertain concerning the eventual sales. Though, the market, at least now, doesn't seem to be saturated at all when it comes to scandoublers/flickerfixes. However, I didn't notice this demand before the 4:4:8 issue was recently re-introduced here on AMiGA.org... after that very post it all seemed to explode.

I have an internal ScanMagic in perfect quality, but it only produces a 4:4:8 output and it looks terrible when it comes to AGA. I, for one, can't understand why this problem never have been adressed before, widely, not even when I asked around for what scandoubler/flickerfixer to get hold of. The problem seemed non-existent. I can't remember how I got hold of them, my current is the second one I have owned with the first one being an external, but neither of the times I got adressed with this very 4:4:8 issue before buying it. When I realised it, it seemed like no-one even had noticed it... really odd.

My point, though, is that I am actually thinking of selling it off. I have got no use for it whatsoever, because I am more than satisfied with the picture quality that a RGB-scart produces. It is next to perfect. Only thing is that I can't have it all on one screen (like when using a switch together with the Voodoo3 and the Scanmagic), but considering that AGA games and demos looks ugly a switchless solution seems like a rather small problem.

So... I would for sure buy a new scandoubler/flickerfixer if some were produced, but it would have to support 8:8:8, otherwise I don't really see the point. I want it to show off AGA perfectly, nothing else, and if it can't, then why bother?

[MskoDestny]

The other problem with making ~1000 of them is that you have to float something in the neighborhood of $50,000 until you manage to sell half of them. That's a big investment for an individual or even a small business. Personally I think it's going to take a while to sell 500 even if you can sell 1000 of them. Low volume PCB manufacturing isn't nearly as inefficient as low volume printing (most presses waste a lot of paper and ink before they come up to speed) and as long as the design avoids BGA parts, they could theoretically be manufactured on demand by hand.

Amiga Video input to triple 8-bit VADC to a PLD (or three smaller ones) programed to repeat scanned input twice out (per line) to triple 8-bit VDAC out to SVGA. Debounced toggle switch to turn off doubling program in PLD for native VGA modes. Clock signal doubled via flip-flop.

You still need RAM. PLL might be a better choice to generate the outbound clock allowing the user to set the resolution and refresh rate, though that complicates the logic a bit.

[alexh]

Myself and Jens Schoenfeld of Individual computers are trying to bring back the Indivision external scandoubler / flicker fixer which used to retail at 99 euros.

The problem is trying to get hold of 250 pairs of chips that make up 1/2 of the device, they are both no longer manufactured, so I am trying to contact some people in china.

I will try my best to help Jens bring this part back to you.