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Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2005, 12:43:38 AM »
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adolescent wrote:
The topic title of "potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP" is misleading, resulting in hopefull people clicking it.  Plus, lots of "zealots" keep coming back to laugh at a Nintendo fanboy's ramblings.

Had you called the thread "OS4 on Gamecube" things would probably be different.


What do you find misleading about a PPC hardware platform that could run Amiga OS and only costs $155?

What is misleading is 2 1/2 years ago saying something is 95% done...and promising a low-cost motherboard that costs $1044 with a $15 video card.  The current A1 is late 90's technology.  Modern hardware indeed.  The Amiga started as a console and should return to it's roots with pride not the shame this thread has treated it with.  My CD32 was a console I expanded into a computer.  Should I be ashamed?  Was it any less an Amiga?

The SX-1 and and SX32 were add-ons that filled in the missing pieces.  Things like this can still be done today. I only see a couple of people laughing.  I think most are crying at the plain truths I have stated.  The truth hurts and not many care to discuss it.

You can call me a Nintendo fanboy.  Atleast I'm not a blind zealot praying and waitng for overpriced outdated technology.  Do you own an A1?  Are you simply justifying your foolhardy purchase by bashing me like a heretic?  If not, do you even plan on buying one?  Why or why not?  Please enlighten us.
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #75 on: March 20, 2005, 02:14:39 AM »
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The PS2 is backwards compatible with the PS1 because Sony included all the PS1's chips into the PS2. That's publicly known. It's not a "software emulation".

I'll say this again... "The PS2 is "compatible" with PSX games, but you can't take advantage of any of the PS2's new features. You also can't run old-gen and new-gen software at the same time"

To do those things, you NEED some sort of emulation.  Games don't need to do those things.  PCs do.

I suppose if you only play games on your Amiga all day, that's fine, but then, there's always WinUAE.

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I'm talking about Amigas not PC's

"PC" means Personal Computer.  If you look at the Amiga as a console, no wonder you think Gamecube is adaquate.

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you or whomever ignored that and compared an XBOX GPU's math processing the math processing power of the G3 in the 'Cube.

Well, which is it?  Me, or "whomever?"

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You are being silly. You just stated that you are only familiar with the PS2. The PS2 has the longest load times of the 3 systems.

So?  You're focusing too much on the hardware itself and not on usage.  Even the best hardware in the world is crap if you use it incorrectly.  The Gamecube's CD drive is really no different than any other mini-disc drive, and saying it would get blazing performance due to low seek times is myopic, especially with the unit's very, very small memory cache.  The unit was designed to stream data, not work with a filesystem.

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Please quote me some REAL numbers here. You make it sound like reading an SD memory card is a slow as a C=64 floppy

It can be if it's not done right.  It depends how flexible the controller bus is on the Gamecube, and I'd have to look at the Gamecube hardware docs to know that.  Since you're the expert on the hardware, what's the throughput of the controller bus, are the busses independent?

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used Gamecube at Electronics Boutique $60

Oh, so now you're basing your prices on used and Ebay'd hardware?

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for the low low price of $1044 you get:

Crap, but that's what you need to run OS4, legally.  I could build a comparable system on the PC for less than $275 -- a lot less if it's used.  That would blow away the Gamecube and be a "real" computer to boot, with PCI expansion, no hacks to add hardware, and the ability to do things that many modern PCs should do, like... burn CDs.

I was under the impression that this thread was about Amiga in general, and not just OS4.

Also note that the AmigaOne includes OS4, and it's hard to tell how much OS4 costs by itself since they don't sell it seperately... at least not yet.

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The Flipper outperforms the Radeon 7000.

Again, you're droning about the performance of the hardware, not the usage.  Also, OS drivers are very different from console drivers, but I already discussed that.

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I know one of you has a 'business' to maintain and justify.

What would that be?

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All I see is constant bugs and patches and delays and outdated technology being sold for over-inflated prices.

How would Gamecube fix that?  Bugs and pathces are the result of development practices and flawed software design.  The limited flexibility of Gamecube's architecture wouldn't make running "AmigaCube" software any easier on Revolution without a lot of emulation.

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If Eyetech, Amiga and Hyperion got together and went to Nintendo and got a license.

I wish them luck, especially seeing how Nintendo bleeds lots of money on those machines and would want a hefty licensce fee.  You're not taking that into account when you spew prices, of course.

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Don't hate me for stating the obvious faults with the road being travelled.

Lots of people see faults in the road, but Amigans are famous for hair-brained ideas that aren't future-proof.  Also, you're overlooking a lot of hidden costs.  The Mac Mini is quite comparable to a game console.  Gee, there must be a reason it costs a minimum of $500 without a monitor, keyboard, or mouse.

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LOL, it's been 4 days and no bashing.

While I'm passionate about computers, I don't live here, you know.

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(On Revolution):  ...it will all still cost well under $1000.

So?  How many other platforms are less than $1000?  This isn't the 1980's, anymore, though Hyperion seems to think so.

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One of the big criticisms I got was "we want to get away from custom hardware..." So I guess the A1 is not considered "custom hardware"...

I'll give you that one.  But note that there's little "custom" about the AmigaOne other than the CPU.  It's all based on PC standards.  It's just that the standards are several years old and horribly overpriced.  Many Amiga.org members got upset when the AmigaOne was announced, especially after the promise of running Amiga software on any platform.

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It's direct hardware banging on the APPLICATION-level that we need to get away from. That's what an API is for.

Is this why you roasted me many posts ago that Gamecube are designed to hit the metal, and that was a good thing that made them so damned efficient?

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Name me one desktop application that really needs 100% cpu utilization in order to run at all on today's modern hardware?

Process management is what the OS is for.  But, process management only works if the hardware *and* APIs are designed to run in user mode.  They are not, so Amiga would have to write their own APIs that use GC APIs like drivers, and that would be a real mess.

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Yes yes, I know Amiga Anywhere isn't OS4... The point is: It seems the new owners want to spread the brand.

Hmm... if the brand means distributing cheezy games that can easily be done with Java, I think many people would pass.  I'm sure most people agree that "Amiga" is the PC made in the 80's through 90's.  Amiga Anywhere is essentially a brand new platform that most Amigans know little about.

Plus, Amiga Anywhere cannot run old Amiga applications without an emulator.

Oh yeah, and Amiga Anywhere is not an OS.  If you want AA on Gamecube or whatever, you still need a host OS.  So, back to square one.

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I'll bet there are more Gamecube owners here than A1 owners.

I don't suppose "good software" and "huge marketting budget" has anything to do with that.  Also note that only 10% of the non-mobile game colsole market belongs to Nintendo.  You've said very, very little of Nintendo's competitors, especially seeing how XBox already has much of what Revolution will have.

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I'm curious? Who am I hurting by suggesting this?

Part of the trick of pusing an "idea" is Proof of Concept.  All you've been talking about is prices and hacks.  You're not taking into consideration any of the technical issues related to getting a "real" OS working on a console, including development budget or licensing.

That's why people aren't taking your idea seriously.  I love the idea of a portable sub $200 computer.  In fact, I'm still debating whether to buy a Mac mini.  However, I know enough about OS development to know it's not techically feasable to get a multitasking OS working on console hardware, and I also know there's a lot of hidden costs you're not mentioning.

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The DE line is not a product I am interested in...I was just emphasizing a point of putting the Amiga brand name on more platforms.

Oh.  Just the brand name.  That makes sense.

Do you have a sudden urge to buy a Commodore MP3 player?

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Linux generated a buzz with the techie population. OS4 on a console (and other hardware) could do the same thing.

Note that Linux was designed to be a low-cost UNIX clone for college students, and was x86 exclusive, to boot.  It was the development of GNU, the porting of X11, and a huge rewrite with Kernel 2.0 that made Linux a real contender.  The only way AmigaOS could hope to have the same following is if it went open source.  Otherwise, it would take more money than you could imagine to get the "Linux Buzz" for the Amiga.

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If OS4 was released for cheap hardware (wasn't that one of the goals of the A1?), I would buy it.

I don't think "cheap" had anything to do with it.  Piracy?  Locked firmware?  Politics?  That's more like it.

Besides, Gamecube is cheap because it is nearing the end of its life and didn't live up to expectations (assuming it hasn't already been taken out of manufacture).  When Revolution shipps, it will be powerful, but won't quite fit the tab as a cheap platform, anymore, especialy with the mandatory development licenses attached.

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I'm just not going to shell out $1000+ for an overpriced outdated hardware platform. I'd get an IMac first if I wanted to get a non-MS platform at that 'entry-level' price. A $49.99 price on hardware I already own has 'mass market' potential. The A1 is not a mass market platform. I can build a Linux box for $200.

I believe that's what x86 Amigan have been saying all along.  Amiga Inc. and Hyperion had plenty of time and arguments to render their decision, and they chose an expensive, buggy, outdated, expensive PPC platform.

Maybe the problem is that the people in charge don't give a damn?  Your Gamecube arguments are similar to x86 arguments.  Amiga and Hyperion turned them down, and show little interest in changing their minds, especially now that they are stuck with PPC whether they like it or not.

From hereon, only Amiga Anywhere actually matters.  OS4 is lost.  And, personally, I see very little "Amiga" in Amiga Anywhere, other than the fact it's a cheezy gaming platform which can be done with Java and done even better with Flash (people really don't see the sheer genius of Flash as a compact, efficient platform at all).

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adolescent:  Had you called the thread "OS4 on Gamecube" things would probably be different.

Yeah, but then he couldn't have changed his focus to Revolution.

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Wasn't it forums like this where the noise was made?

It's also a forum like this where you told me not to reply to your posts, anymore.
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #76 on: March 20, 2005, 02:24:45 AM »
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What do you find misleading about a PPC hardware platform that could run Amiga OS and only costs $155?

The fact is can't cost $155 with all the software and license fees included?

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The SX-1 and and SX32 were add-ons that filled in the missing pieces.

The CD32 was a full computer that had been stripped into a console.  The Gamecube is the opposite.  Plus, the CD32 existed in a time where memory protection was a non-issue (Win98, anyone?), and people still hit the metal when programming.

Yes, it can be done, but not with existing console hardware.  Especially not Gamecube.

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I think most are crying at the plain truths I have stated.

A serious question:  have you ever worked on an OS before?

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Do you own an A1? Are you simply justifying your foolhardy purchase by bashing me like a heretic? If not, do you even plan on buying one?

Nope.  I'm here to follow new ideas in the high-level parts of OS design, as well as other neat things I can do with my A1200, which I still use on occasion.  I have little but a macabre interest in what happens to OS4, as I feel it has no future at all.

Amiga as a PC platform (meaning Personal Computer, and not a purpose-built workhorse), is very much dead.  That's a plain truth.
 

Offline coldfish

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #77 on: March 20, 2005, 05:52:33 AM »
/insert $0.02

I have to admit, I'd be a lot more tempted by a OS4+GameCube-SX1 style daugterboard add-on, than any of the A1 packages.  

If no worthwhile software ever gets written for OS4, at least you've still got the modest GC game library to fall back on.

Running OS4 on the 'Cube is certainly possible, if not plausible.  Though It's a lot more plausible than some of the wishful thinking Ive heard, like "run OS4 on PS3".  Pfft!

I dont think the Amiga community gets to criticise ideas based on their plausibility...  :-P
 

Offline adolescent

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #78 on: March 20, 2005, 03:23:24 PM »
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lou_dias wrote:
You can call me a Nintendo fanboy.  Atleast I'm not a blind zealot praying and waitng for overpriced outdated technology.  Do you own an A1?  Are you simply justifying your foolhardy purchase by bashing me like a heretic?  If not, do you even plan on buying one?  Why or why not?  Please enlighten us.


No, I don't own an A1.  

No, I'm not bashing you because I bought one, I'm bashing you because your idea is silly for reasons stated on page one of this thread.  If you started a thread about OS4 on Mac Mini I'd agree, because thats a suitable platform for the OS.  But, as a Nintendo fanboy you think the GC can do everything, including host a fairly modern OS.  Well, it can't.

No, not unless the price is dropped, bugs are fixed, and OS4 is finished.
Time to move on.  Bye Amiga.org.  :(
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #79 on: March 21, 2005, 01:21:57 AM »
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adolescent wrote:
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lou_dias wrote:
You can call me a Nintendo fanboy.  Atleast I'm not a blind zealot praying and waitng for overpriced outdated technology.  Do you own an A1?  Are you simply justifying your foolhardy purchase by bashing me like a heretic?  If not, do you even plan on buying one?  Why or why not?  Please enlighten us.


No, I don't own an A1.  

No, I'm not bashing you because I bought one, I'm bashing you because your idea is silly for reasons stated on page one of this thread.  If you started a thread about OS4 on Mac Mini I'd agree, because thats a suitable platform for the OS.  But, as a Nintendo fanboy you think the GC can do everything, including host a fairly modern OS.  Well, it can't.

No, not unless the price is dropped, bugs are fixed, and OS4 is finished.


The GC is already running Linux.
http://www.gc-linux.org/

What price are you referring to that needs the be dropped?  The GC is $99US brand new.
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #80 on: March 21, 2005, 01:33:16 AM »
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Waccoon wrote:
The fact is can't cost $155 with all the software and license fees included?


That's the basic end user cost for getting the system running with a keyboard.  I didn't include/compare the cost of the OS against the Forefront A1 price because I don't know the cost of the OS...I can only guess abot $125-200.  License fees are paid by developers and would be included in the cost of the OS not the hardware.

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The CD32 was a full computer that had been stripped into a console.  The Gamecube is the opposite.  Plus, the CD32 existed in a time where memory protection was a non-issue (Win98, anyone?), and people still hit the metal when programming.

Yes, it can be done, but not with existing console hardware.  Especially not Gamecube.


All classic Amigas have a 'game-machine' design.  In other words, there are usually 2 system buses and it's the GPU that controls memory access.  The GC is no different.

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A serious question:  have you ever worked on an OS before?


I worked on a lexican analyzer in college back in '91 when I was a computer engineering student at UMass-Amherst.  It essential is a dos-like command line interpreter.  Wrote it in ADA as well as the 'dos' functions it was designed to respond to.  This was for a VAX VMS system.  I do have a stong computer programming background and some engineering background on the hardware side too.

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Nope.  I'm here to follow new ideas in the high-level parts of OS design, as well as other neat things I can do with my A1200, which I still use on occasion.  I have little but a macabre interest in what happens to OS4, as I feel it has no future at all.

Amiga as a PC platform (meaning Personal Computer, and not a purpose-built workhorse), is very much dead.  That's a plain truth.


Then it sounds like you should have no interest in this thread what-so-ever.
 

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #81 on: March 21, 2005, 02:05:38 AM »
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Yes, it can be done, but not with existing console hardware. Especially not Gamecube.


Bollocks.

NOTHING is impossible.

The dreamcast ran WindowsCE, NetBSD, and Linux 7 years ago.
The PS2 has had Linux for the last 4 years.
Gamecube has linux currently.

So to say a small, not very complex by comparison, operating system such as AmigaOS couldn't run on one of todays systems is laughable.

Could the GC run AmigaOS? Yes.
Will it ever run AmigaOS? Not likely.
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #82 on: March 21, 2005, 03:22:24 AM »
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I'll say this again... "The PS2 is "compatible" with PSX games, but you can't take advantage of any of the PS2's new features. You also can't run old-gen and new-gen software at the same time"

To do those things, you NEED some sort of emulation.  Games don't need to do those things.  PCs do.

I suppose if you only play games on your Amiga all day, that's fine, but then, there's always WinUAE.


I'll say this again.  PS2 includes the exact same hardware as PS1 in order to run PS1 software.  If it was a software emulation then 'enhancements' could be patched in.  Iwata (Nintendo president) has stated in his keynote address at the GDC 10 days ago that development kits for Revolution will be familiar to current GC developers.  That leads me to believe that the API's will be similar.  If you go to Metrowerks's site on CodeWarrior for the Gamecube, you will notice that is was used to write the Gamecube's OS.  All game machines have an OS.  Some disk-based games on classic Amigas loaded a subset of the Amiga OS that they needed for the game.  For the games that 'hit the metal' themselves, those are the ones with compatibility issues.  I can't tell you exactly why Revolution will be backwards ompatible but since Nintendo is sticking with IBM and ATI it could be hardware-backwards compatible but I wouldn't rule out a software emulation that could enhance certain 3D graphical effects like PS1 and N64 software emulators do on the PC.

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I'm talking about Amigas not PC's

"PC" means Personal Computer.  If you look at the Amiga as a console, no wonder you think Gamecube is adaquate.


I've been on this site long enough to know that when someone says 'PC' they mean a Wintel box.  Yes the Amiga is a personal computer but to me it's an Amiga, not a PC.  I don't know why you keep ignoring the Amiga's game-machine roots.  Every Amiga built was designed like a game machine.  Only the A1 has a 'PC' architecture.  Oh and isn't the A1 running PPC Linux?  Funny, so is the Gamecube.
http://www.gc-linux.org

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You are being silly. You just stated that you are only familiar with the PS2. The PS2 has the longest load times of the 3 systems.

So?  You're focusing too much on the hardware itself and not on usage.  Even the best hardware in the world is crap if you use it incorrectly.  The Gamecube's CD drive is really no different than any other mini-disc drive, and saying it would get blazing performance due to low seek times is myopic, especially with the unit's very, very small memory cache.  The unit was designed to stream data, not work with a filesystem.


Actually the PS2 and XBOX stream data faster than the Gamecube.  As I've stated before, where the Gamecube excells is when loading many different files in succession.  It's faster spinning, lower average seek time drive is what brings down loading times of many games.  Again that depends on the design of the game/application.  An OS consists of many files and GC games come to a start/options menu quicker that the other 2.  The GC has an OS that comes on every disc not built-in to BIOS.  

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Please quote me some REAL numbers here. You make it sound like reading an SD memory card is a slow as a C=64 floppy

It can be if it's not done right.  It depends how flexible the controller bus is on the Gamecube, and I'd have to look at the Gamecube hardware docs to know that.  Since you're the expert on the hardware, what's the throughput of the controller bus, are the busses independent?

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used Gamecube at Electronics Boutique $60

Oh, so now you're basing your prices on used and Ebay'd hardware?


Is there something wrong with that?  The GC is a sturdy system.  Mines has fallen onto a wooden floor from a height of 2 1/2 feet on 3 seperate occassions and still works flawlessly.  I have no qualms about purchasing a used GC.  Also, you can buy 'new' hardware on Ebay from retailers who are looking to liquidate there inventory.  I picked up Final Fantasy:Crystal Chronicles w/GBA link cable brand new in a plastic sealed box for $26.90 shipped. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=8171712647&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT
That's about 1/2 price if I had bought it locally brand new.  So what's your issue with Ebay or E.B.?

Also, about the memory card bus...I know on Mario Party 6, a microphone is plugged into the memory card port for the mini-games that offer voice recognition...  So it would seem that the only reason to 'stop everything' to read/save to an actual memory card is to make sure the user knows not to pull it out or turn off the power will saving.  Just common sense.

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for the low low price of $1044 you get:

Crap, but that's what you need to run OS4, legally.  I could build a comparable system on the PC for less than $275 -- a lot less if it's used.  That would blow away the Gamecube and be a "real" computer to boot, with PCI expansion, no hacks to add hardware, and the ability to do things that many modern PCs should do, like... burn CDs.


Hey, I'm all about doing it legally.  I think Hyperion and Amiga Inc. should get this license.  Then Eyetech could design an SX-1-like addon to give you your IDE, usb, etc...  The 81MB/second transfer rate of the GC's high speed parrallel port is no joke.

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The Flipper outperforms the Radeon 7000.

Again, you're droning about the performance of the hardware, not the usage.  Also, OS drivers are very different from console drivers, but I already discussed that.[/quote]

Come on now.  You don't think that an ATI chip designed for a game console doesn't have optimized drivers?  How is using an API for graphics on a game different from using is in another application such as a gui for an OS?

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I know one of you has a 'business' to maintain and justify.

What would that be?


billt - Bill Toner of Forefront Technologies who wrote the Radeon 7000 driver and sells it with the A1 for $1044.

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All I see is constant bugs and patches and delays and outdated technology being sold for over-inflated prices.

How would Gamecube fix that?  Bugs and pathces are the result of development practices and flawed software design.  The limited flexibility of Gamecube's architecture wouldn't make running "AmigaCube" software any easier on Revolution without a lot of emulation.

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If Eyetech, Amiga and Hyperion got together and went to Nintendo and got a license.

I wish them luck, especially seeing how Nintendo bleeds lots of money on those machines and would want a hefty licensce fee.  You're not taking that into account when you spew prices, of course.


The GC was/is a profitable console.  The current GC costs about $107 to make and they sell it for $99.  Originally it sold for $250, then $225, then $199, then $175, then $150 and finally $99.  That price has only been in effect for the last year.  How much of a license fee is part of a $49.99 title?  You must think that publishers pay a $100 license fee per game and only sell it at $49.99...does that make sense?  Also, license fees are negotiable.  They are usually based on units sold.  Either way, I don't see the average license fee being outside of the $5-$10 range per unit sold and is built into the $49.99 price.  As a consumer, a license fee is irrelevant to me when I buy a game at $49.99.  It's up to Hyperion and Amiga Inc. to negitiate a license fee, not me and you.  Either way that will be built into the cost of the OS when you purchase it.

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Lots of people see faults in the road, but Amigans are famous for hair-brained ideas that aren't future-proof.  Also, you're overlooking a lot of hidden costs.  The Mac Mini is quite comparable to a game console.  Gee, there must be a reason it costs a minimum of $500 without a monitor, keyboard, or mouse.


I don't believe Apple will be handing out a license to run another OS on there machine.  So the Mac-mini is not a legal option.

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(On Revolution):  ...it will all still cost well under $1000.

So?  How many other platforms are less than $1000?  This isn't the 1980's, anymore, though Hyperion seems to think so.


Well, the XBOX 360 will not included a hard drive so that figures to be the least expensive of the 3 next gen consoles...but like the Apple issue, I don't think MS will hand out a license to run another OS on the platform.  I can't believe any next-gen console will cost more than $500 initially...and they will be coming with fast and modern hardware.

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It's direct hardware banging on the APPLICATION-level that we need to get away from. That's what an API is for.

Is this why you roasted me many posts ago that Gamecube are designed to hit the metal, and that was a good thing that made them so damned efficient?


Actually my point is that the API's you get with the GC dev kit are as close to hitting the metal as you want to be.  I believe it's these API's that will let Revolution be backwards compatible with GC.  That goes back to Iwata's statements about a familiar development environment for Revolution to current GC developers.  Nintendo knows the value of a system that is easy to program for.  The N64 was not but the GC is as will be Revolution.

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Name me one desktop application that really needs 100% cpu utilization in order to run at all on today's modern hardware?

Process management is what the OS is for.  But, process management only works if the hardware *and* APIs are designed to run in user mode.  They are not, so Amiga would have to write their own APIs that use GC APIs like drivers, and that would be a real mess.


The only API's from the GC that Hyperion would need is the graphics, sound, controller port, memory card port, LAN port and other I/O like the high speed port.  This is all part of the HAL that they had to write for the A1.  The kernal/process management part is part of the OS and is just PPC code (compiled 'C') that is already written.  My point about porting OS4 to the GC is that all that need to be rewritten should be just the HAL (hardware abstraction layer).

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I'll bet there are more Gamecube owners here than A1 owners.

I don't suppose "good software" and "huge marketting budget" has anything to do with that.  Also note that only 10% of the non-mobile game colsole market belongs to Nintendo.  You've said very, very little of Nintendo's competitors, especially seeing how XBox already has much of what Revolution will have.


XBOX is not PPC based so it would be a major rewrite of OS4 and as I've stated before is off-topic.  My point is that since many more people already own a GC vs. A1, it would be fairly convenient for them to purchase OS4 for GC vs. also having to purchase an A1...

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I'm curious? Who am I hurting by suggesting this?

Part of the trick of pusing an "idea" is Proof of Concept.  All you've been talking about is prices and hacks.  You're not taking into consideration any of the technical issues related to getting a "real" OS working on a console, including development budget or licensing.

That's why people aren't taking your idea seriously.  I love the idea of a portable sub $200 computer.  In fact, I'm still debating whether to buy a Mac mini.  However, I know enough about OS development to know it's not techically feasable to get a multitasking OS working on console hardware, and I also know there's a lot of hidden costs you're not mentioning.


once again: http://www.gc-linux.org/
if it Linux can be hacked in, OS4 can be done legally and professionally at a profit to Amiga Inc. and Hyperion.  Eyetech can also benefit from an SX-1-like addon.  I already have an addon sitting underneath my GC - the GBA player.  I'd have no problem replacing it with an addon that gives me IDE, usb...etc.. ports to be a 'full' computer running OS4.  Such an addon can be designed for far less than a complete motherboard with ZIF socket...

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Do you have a sudden urge to buy a Commodore MP3 player?


I don't have a use for a portable MP3 player but others may.  People originally believe the Apple IPod wouldn't sell.

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Linux generated a buzz with the techie population. OS4 on a console (and other hardware) could do the same thing.

Note that Linux was designed to be a low-cost UNIX clone for college students, and was x86 exclusive, to boot.  It was the development of GNU, the porting of X11, and a huge rewrite with Kernel 2.0 that made Linux a real contender.  The only way AmigaOS could hope to have the same following is if it went open source.  Otherwise, it would take more money than you could imagine to get the "Linux Buzz" for the Amiga.


Linux is no longer x86 exclusive.  Linux is already running on the GC and A1 didn't the original A1s come bundled with Linux...  Once again: http://www.gc-linux.org/
Obviously the GC can run alternate OS's.  Having a professionally supported OS with professional software titles is something OS4 would have over Linux.  OS4 bundled with Ibrowse and some Hyperion games would, IMHO, be a good bundle on the GC.  Include UAE of OS4 to run classic Amiga games and use the MAX DRIVE to transer the .adf files to the GC and you could be playing classic Amiga titles through OS4 on the GC.

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If OS4 was released for cheap hardware (wasn't that one of the goals of the A1?), I would buy it.

I don't think "cheap" had anything to do with it.  Piracy?  Locked firmware?  Politics?  That's more like it.


Non-issues with the GC.  I can't read GC discs on my PC.  I could read the A1's OS4 cd.  Piracy would be minimized with a GC port.

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Besides, Gamecube is cheap because it is nearing the end of its life and didn't live up to expectations (assuming it hasn't already been taken out of manufacture).  When Revolution shipps, it will be powerful, but won't quite fit the tab as a cheap platform, anymore, especialy with the mandatory development licenses attached.


The GC was/is profitable for Nintendo.  As the next Gameboy (Evolution) is rumored to be GC compatible, software development for the platform is on-going.  Also, revolution is scheduled to arrive in late Q1 of 2006.  Sales of GC hardware are on-going.  Games like Resident Evil 4 and features like 2 exclusive boss characters in Mortal Kombat:Deception continue to drive hardware sales of the unit as will the release of the next Zelda title this coming Christmas.

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I believe that's what x86 Amigan have been saying all along.  Amiga Inc. and Hyperion had plenty of time and arguments to render their decision, and they chose an expensive, buggy, outdated, expensive PPC platform.

Maybe the problem is that the people in charge don't give a damn?  Your Gamecube arguments are similar to x86 arguments.  Amiga and Hyperion turned them down, and show little interest in changing their minds, especially now that they are stuck with PPC whether they like it or not.


My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL (licensing issues included).  Going to x86 is a much bigger issue.  Also, I like the fact that consoles are better for games.  The heart of the Amiga is a games machine.  The A1 is a PC design and has the same inefficencies as a PC (x86)...it's single shared system bus architeture.  Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things.  The GC is also built that way.  It's truly very Amiga-like from a hardware point of view.
 

Offline LP

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #83 on: March 21, 2005, 04:15:08 AM »
:argue:

Next one not knowning the difference between a GUI and an Application will report to my office at 700 hours...

:afro:
 

Offline adolescent

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #84 on: March 21, 2005, 04:27:50 AM »
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lou_dias wrote:

The GC is already running Linux.
http://www.gc-linux.org/


The GC Linux can not be considered modern by any means.  Just because it has the name Linux, doesn't mean it has all of the features (ie. no X Windows, etc.).  There is simply no way to overcome the RAM and local storage limitations on console systems.  

@MDMA

See above.  Sure console systems have Linux, some have rather good ports (GC is very primitive comparitively).  But, you can't overcome the hardware.  In the case of the Xbox there are memory and CPU upgrades available that make it more usable, but it's still cripled compared to a modern x86 port.

OS4 will not run on 24Mb of RAM.  It's simply not possible.
Time to move on.  Bye Amiga.org.  :(
 

Offline coldfish

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #85 on: March 21, 2005, 04:39:05 AM »
I like the thinking behind this thread, but as a reality it aint gonna happen anytime soon.  

Firstly, Nintendo has no interest in supporting a foreign OS that presently accounts for what, <0.1 percent of the OS market?  If they did need an OS, Im sure they'd roll their own.

...or just buy the Amiga IP outright, putting an end to all other AmigaOS development.  Then you'd get something that felt vuagely like AmigaOS but with Mario as the mouse pointer...

Secondly, Amiga-Inc, et al have no interest in porting to a piece of hardware they receive no revenue from.  Even if they were interested, I doubt they'd know how to proceed.

Lastly, the Amiga userbase would throw a fit! (just look at the hostility of this thread) Let alone buy into it.  The last thing the dwindling Amiga market needs now is further segmentation.

My advice for people not willing to pay the exorbitant fee for A1/OS4, is to leave the Amiga its fate, and start looking at modern alternatives like, OSX, AROS, Knoppix(Linux) ect.  
The truth is, most modern OS's have caught up with, if not far surpassed the AmigaOS experience.
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #86 on: March 21, 2005, 05:40:55 AM »
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adolescent wrote:

OS4 will not run on 24Mb of RAM.  It's simply not possible.


How sad that Amiga OS 1.1 ran on 256k even 3.1 only used a couple of hundred kilobytes of memory on my CD32 with Workbench running.  Granted the Kickstart 3.1 ROM is 512k.  I don't see a problem with an OS4 w/gui running in clocking several megabytes of RAM.  Heck, didn't the A4000 come with 2-8 MB of RAM?  I find it hard to believe that OS4 can't run in WELL under 24MB.  I don't think it's that big a pig.  Most of the OS files can reside on the disc (which can store 1.5GB of information and has a low seek time).  Only the kernal and gui need to reside in memory.  Also, don't forget about the 16MB of RAM that most developers use as a RAM disk that the sound chip has direct access to.
 

Offline Louis DiasTopic starter

Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #87 on: March 29, 2005, 11:08:30 PM »
Oh my goodness!

http://cube.ign.com/articles/599/599399p1.html

Revolution to use same API as Gamecube...

I would have never guessed that.

Oh wait!  Yes I did...  Didn't I?
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #88 on: March 30, 2005, 09:57:45 AM »
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My key point is that OS4 is ALREADY a PPC OS so porting it to the GC should only require a rewrite of the HAL (licensing issues included). Going to x86 is a much bigger issue. Also, I like the fact that consoles are better for games. The heart of the Amiga is a games machine. The A1 is a PC design and has the same inefficencies as a PC (x86)...it's single shared system bus architeture. Much of the Amiga's multi-tasking capabilities came from the fact that the custom chips could access memory on there own while the cpu was doing other things. The GC is also built that way. It's truly very Amiga-like from a hardware point of view.


The Above quote is meaningless...

I think you study PC architecture before you post crap and prove that you are an idiot.

You are so far behind the tech curve you can't see how wrong you are... even busses in the traditional sense have been superceded by point-to-point packet based transport layers... Do the words Hypertransport and PCI-express mean nothing to you?

If I look at the PC sitting next to me, The CPU has three independant busses; a dual channel RAM interface (that means 2 separate busses dedicated to memory access) and a single hypertransport link.

The Hypertransport link connects to the PCIe (PCI-express) tunnel and to the PCI bridge.

On my PCIe bus I have a Graphics card, which I shall come to later, and some integrated system features like SATA, Gigabit-Lan, USB2, Firewire etc...

On the PCI bus, I have some standard southbridge features, IDE, FDC, BIOS, RTC, PS/2 ports, Serial etc... and I have a sound card and a TV card plugged in there too.

Ok back to the Graphics card; This is a separate Processor (aka the GPU) dedicated to graphics generation, it also has its own memory, 128megs on a dedicated bus that has nothing to do with anything else in the computer.

Ok, lets count up those busses! I counted 6, not counting the USB2 (With my digital camera, keyboard, mouse etc...) or the Firewire with my Edirol FA-101 audio module.

Now what were you saying about single busses? oh years that's right the amiga has a single bus...

Offline jarrody2k

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Re: potential PPC Amiga REAL CHEAP
« Reply #89 from previous page: March 30, 2005, 10:13:28 AM »
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And if you read  http://stuffo.howstuffworks.com/gamecube.htm , you will see that a GC is designed like an Amiga.  A true gaming machine unlike those PC's (PS2/XBOX) posing as game machines.


Hold on, I need to vomit...

.. right.  PS2 is like a PC?  I write software on the PS2 for a living and nothing is further from the truth.  More research, less zeal, buddy.

Jarrod