Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Author Topic: We Doin' Any Good Here?  (Read 6531 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline bloodline

  • Master Sock Abuser
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 12114
    • Show only replies by bloodline
    • http://www.troubled-mind.com
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2005, 02:14:01 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:
I'm probably going to ruin the joke by asking this, but who is Father Jack?  :-?


Father Ted

Father Jack

  • Guest
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2005, 02:18:22 PM »
Why is it that you guys invariably hijack every single topic and take it completely off-kilter?
 

Offline bloodline

  • Master Sock Abuser
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 12114
    • Show only replies by bloodline
    • http://www.troubled-mind.com
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2005, 02:24:29 PM »
Quote

Wayne wrote:
Why is it that you guys invariably hijack every single topic and take it completely off-kilter?



Um... Sorry :-(

-Edit- In my defence, I did start my 64bit thread in the Coffee house even though it's a technical subject, I did that because I knew it would become a fun thread, of little use to those outside of the loop.

Offline Cymric

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Nov 2002
  • Posts: 1031
    • Show only replies by Cymric
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2005, 02:40:49 PM »
@Wayne:

You have just witnessed 'forum dynamics'. Stopping it means hard moderation, and restriction of discussion to informative, sensible and serious topics only. That would more or less do this site in, because we just saw that there is very little information left in this community. Have you never witnessed at parties how discussions take off somewhere and end up in the most bizarre territory? (I remember an episode where we came up with paintballing with abandoned tanks. Don't ask.) Same with forums.
Some people say that cats are sneaky, evil and cruel. True, and they have many other fine qualities as well.
 

Offline smithy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 511
    • Show only replies by smithy
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2005, 02:43:28 PM »
Yeah... I think we are doing some good.  I don't think anyone out there in the industry is doing anything for us however, but people within certainly are.

I get the impression that the community is doing a lot.  I think that it's only recently (maybe in the last 1-2 years) that people have realised that no company is going to do very much.  People are now coding, setting up support and resource websites.. lots of people in the community are working to help the Amiga.

The OS4 and MOS projects are being developed by Amigans and older Amiga developers, recently a community-driven OpenOffice porting project begun.  There are some cool homegrown products such as Hollywood.

Wayne reckons the community has degenerated, but I think that even though trolling is still commonplace on the forums, there are still plenty of cool welcoming communities in usergroups and some IRC channels.

Many of us are working on stuff to that we think will help the platform.  I am hopeful, that a year from now, we'll have what we'll need to approach more mainstream markets and attract people from the outside that is, an office suite may be well on its way, there are a few brand new modern candidates for a capable web browser in development, and with the software there.

I think the next year is going to be one of hard work and development for us.  Hopefully in 12-18 months we'll have what software we need to be a real option as a computing platform.  All we need is for someone to push the platform commercially...

 

Offline smithy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Mar 2002
  • Posts: 511
    • Show only replies by smithy
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #19 on: January 24, 2005, 02:49:11 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:
@Wayne:

You have just witnessed 'forum dynamics'. Stopping it means hard moderation, and restriction of discussion to informative, sensible and serious topics only. That would more or less do this site in, because we just saw that there is very little information left in this community. Have you never witnessed at parties how discussions take off somewhere and end up in the most bizarre territory? (I remember an episode where we came up with paintballing with abandoned tanks. Don't ask.) Same with forums.


Perhaps off-topic banter can be restricted to the Coffee-house?  Of course, it's human nature to go off on tangents, but this was a serious topic, and these days there seems to be no shortage of other frivolous topics to talk about socks or Bloodline's girlfriend!  If you're at a party and there is a serious subject being discussed, then it's considered very rude to change the subject before it was finished being discussed ;-)


 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show only replies by MiAmigo
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2005, 03:54:55 PM »
Wowsers! That's a LOT to think about!  :cry:
 

Offline Kronos

  • Resident blue troll
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 4017
    • Show only replies by Kronos
    • http://www.SteamDraw.de
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2005, 04:06:31 PM »
Quote

Wayne wrote:

I also agree that while the Amiga community was dying on it's own due to neglect, the virulent "The Art of War" form of promotion injected by Bill Buck (and supported by others) into the fray is exactly what turned it from a morose death-watch into an unneccessary and stupid war.



I think you give Bill just to much credit on this one...

"Art of War" promotion, aka trolling&FUDing by corporate head-nuts and their minions was pretty much common long before BB took part.

Just look through the ann.lu-archives up to 2001 and you'll see what I mean. It's offcourse no secret that adding BB into this mix meant hitting critical mass, but you can't blame the last neutron any more than the other 400 trillion that form the nuklear explosion.

I must admit that I have absolutly no clue what went on online prior to 1998 or so (internet was danm expensive round here back than), but for me the troubles really started when GateWay announced they would slap "Amiga" on something completly different. It just wasn't clear anymore what Amiga was, and from thereon you had companies and groups each following their own paths and ideas (which often turned out to be just fantasy or scams).

Before that everybody agreed on that "we" wanted an A5000. There might have been discussions wether this should have AA,Nyx or just a PCI-GFX card, wether it should use PPC or maybe alpha, but the direction was clear.
1. Make an announcment.
2. Wait a while.
3. Check if it can actually be done.
4. Wait for someone else to do it.
5. Start working on it while giving out hillarious progress-reports.
6. Deny that you have ever announced it
7. Blame someone else
 

  • Guest
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2005, 04:31:22 PM »
Quote
I think you give Bill just to much credit on this one...
Please don't misunderstand.  I do not intend to suggest in any way that Bill Buck is solely responsible for all the problems in this community.  I am in fact trying to say that Amiga Inc did dig their own very deep hole with the community.  They did it through incompetence and outright trying to tell us what we wanted when we cried for a new Amiga.

However, I think you said it better when you elaborated that the moment when Buck and his trolling marketing tactics arrived was when the problems we had as a community hit "critical mass".  Suddenly, rather than everyone having the unified goal of wanting a new Amiga but being pissed at Amiga Inc, we were now given a choice, which was to either continue being mad at no progress, or to "follow the pretty butterfly".  

In my opinion (even though I'm hoping I can say it correctly) *THAT* is the moment when everything changed for the worst for the Amiga community.  From that moment on, there were two base factions in the community who literally were at war with each other.  Each faction GLADLY forgetting that the other group were -- at one point -- friends.

Wayne
 

Offline Ilwrath

Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2005, 04:55:44 PM »
Quote
In the end, I would bet that less than 5% of you experienced what the real Amiga community was like in the beginning. I doubt that any of you could really ever understand why I would have gone out of the way to start this site. It used to be that the Amiga community was about friendship, and it didn't matter whether you were in Los Angeles California, or St. Petersburg Russia.


I don't know... I think there's probably more than 5%.  But Then again, the ones who have been around forever are the people that mostly stay in the technical forums and ask/answer questions about classic hardware.  

There IS still a faction of people who are waiting around for the Amiga to "die" so we can get back to enjoying our Amigas, much like people are enjoying their 8 bit'ers like the C64.

I think Amiga.org serves a very valuable purpose in keeping these people together.  Despite the occasional flamewar, it's one of the few sites that has consistantly offered a realistic view of the future, as well as solid technical information.  

From a collectors standpoint, Amiga.org is very valuable.  It is visited by some of the best technical "Amiga fans" on the web, including several of the key players in Amiga's development.  I wish I had a resource half this strong for information on my old SGIs.  :-)

(And, I give my apologies for the occasional outburst I have regarding future Amigas.  Hey, you should kind of expect anyone named Ilwrath to uncloak, char-broil a few things, and disappear again... it's in my nature.  ;-) )
 

Offline JetFireDX

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 232
    • Show only replies by JetFireDX
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2005, 07:24:00 PM »
I just want to ask, do we HAVE to be "doing something" tangible here? I read Amiga.org everyday, but I don't always post. Most of the time I hit forums too late and somebody has already stated the same thing I would say. But it is not because I feel like I personally need to be accomplishing anything, I just like to read about what others are doing and occasionally throw in anything I might know to help out. Thats enough for me. I think some of the people on here are real characters and can be funny as hell and then there are those that are overly sensitive. Everybody is who they are. Still, I think it is fun to come on and read the happenings of the day. If one person comes on needing help with their A500 they haven't touched in 12 years and they get their question answered, isn't that doing something? I certainly don't consider it a waste time, does anybody else? Now whether or not we are helping "move the platform forward" or not depends on the person and their personal views and what ideas/companies they support. I don't blame anybody to choosing one over another. That is no different that the Win vs Linux vs Mac argument. Use what works for you.

I will now go back to my usual viewing position in the shadows.

edit*** booya 200th post! :-D
 

Offline TheMagicM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Join Date: Feb 2002
  • Posts: 2857
    • Show only replies by TheMagicM
    • http://www.BartonekDragRacing.com
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #25 on: January 24, 2005, 07:47:54 PM »
My sentiments exactly JetFireDX.   This is just a hobby.  I could care less what happens to the new breed of Amiga's (Pegasos/A1).  The real Amiga's are the classic Amigas...thats what this site is about.. a bunch of us Amiga fanatics hanging out, talking about what we're doing with our classic.  If something new happens to be developed for our classic system, great, if not..we'll continue on with what we have.  C=64 users are a perfect example (like me! LOL) of continuing on despite of technological advances. hehe

-Alex
PowerMac G5 dual 2.0ghz/128meg Radeon/500gb HD/2GB RAM, MorphOS 3.9 registered, user #1900
Powerbook G4 5,6 1.67ghz/2gb RAM, Radeon 9700/250gb hd, MorphOS 3.9 registered #3143
 

  • Guest
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #26 on: January 24, 2005, 08:13:16 PM »
Alex.

Ding, ding, ding....  I knew there was a reason I liked you....

Wayne
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

  • Arbiter of Succession
  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2004
  • Posts: 391
  • Country: us
  • Thanked: 1 times
  • Gender: Male
    • Show only replies by MiAmigo
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #27 on: January 24, 2005, 09:14:40 PM »
Quote

JetFireDX wrote:
I just want to ask, do we HAVE to be "doing something" tangible here? I read Amiga.org everyday, but I don't always post. Most of the time I hit forums too late and somebody has already stated the same thing I would say. But it is not because I feel like I personally need to be accomplishing anything, I just like to read about what others are doing and occasionally throw in anything I might know to help out. Thats enough for me. I think some of the people on here are real characters and can be funny as hell and then there are those that are overly sensitive. Everybody is who they are. Still, I think it is fun to come on and read the happenings of the day. If one person comes on needing help with their A500 they haven't touched in 12 years and they get their question answered, isn't that doing something? I certainly don't consider it a waste time, does anybody else? Now whether or not we are helping "move the platform forward" or not depends on the person and their personal views and what ideas/companies they support. I don't blame anybody to choosing one over another. That is no different that the Win vs Linux vs Mac argument. Use what works for you.

I will now go back to my usual viewing position in the shadows.

edit*** booya 200th post! :-D


Since I'm relatively new to the Amiga.org scene, AND I was (and am) one of the original old-time Amiga owners, I think that qualifies me to speak from both sides of the story - so to speak. As a 'newbie' returning to the  Amiga scene after many, many years, I was able to get lots of fast, friendly help, and advice from many of the posters here, that was extremely helpful, and really saved me a lot of time and head scratching (kudos here to my friend redrumloa, who spent way more time helping me, and advising me, than I deserved!). I was also able to learn stuff about the Amiga that I actually never knew - I don't think there's any other 'dead' platform that has such a vast, and still potent and alive support network, especially and including the Aminet archive. And, the coolest thing, most of the support (and software) is free. So, in that sense, yes, the community is very, very supportive, and even productive. But, on the other hand...

I've noticed a certain element of 'negativity' that, well-reflected on, and documented here, can't do anything, but, in the long run, tear the community down, which is what prompted me to write the original post. Now, truth to tell, some of the negative aspects of this forum, are actually common to almost all Internet-based forums and interactions: running the full gamut from extreme apathy (paradoxically, since it takes effort to post and read posts), to extremely passionate opinions concerning  hardware and software, bordering on hostility, and astonishing rudeness. Because of the nature of the forum form (basically, I can't see you, and you can't see me) people tend to be more willing to be rude and negative, not only with long-time online friends, but, even with complete strangers. I've seen this phenomenon with the online gaming community as well - the lack of direct human contact tends to breed  'bad' behavior, in some people.

But the issues of this forum run deeper.  There is a great sense of hurt, betrayal, and pain, evident even in those posts that are from the so-called ‘apathists’ (again, a contradiction of actions and terms, since, if you are apathetic, why bother to post). Just ‘whom’ has created this sense of betrayal is not really clear, at least, not to me. That’s because I, personally, came back to the Amiga for reasons somewhat different than those who actually ‘stayed’ with the Amiga, back during the Great Exodus to the PC platform. For me, and some like me, the original concept of the Amiga is forever frozen in time. I can’t help but still remember the Amiga for what it once was – almost like the memory of the childhood sweetheart that is jarringly different from what that person might actually look like ‘right now’. So, every one of my posts (especially, it seems, the most inflammatory, and controversial ones) are all based on that older image of the Amiga, and, of course, my humble projections of what it ‘could’ have been. In this, I have remained consistent throughout. IMHO, I think that those of the community who stayed around, and have been around since Day One, may have lost some of that original ‘child-like’ awe, and enthusiasm for the platform, and have now become disappointed, saddened, and embittered, (jaded) by all the corporate shenanigans cataloged here in these posts. I certainly know what they feel, since, when I was deep in the PC community, I’d hear, from time to time, how ‘such and such’ a company was going to resurrect the Amiga, gotten excited about it, only to be disappointed time and time again when they managed to fumble the ball over and over again. And, adding insult to injury, and salt to the wound, I’ve watched the ‘meager’ and ‘clunky’ PC, which couldn’t even play card games, for chrissakes (!) climb as a pretender to the throne, to computer supremacy. It’s enough to make anybody feel, sad, mad, and betrayed. I remember once, I really ‘snapped’ when I heard ‘industry wag’ John Dvorak (I’ve hated him ever since!) say Amiga users should quit ‘whining’ about how great the Amiga ‘used’ to be, and why it failed, and just get over it. That attitude of easy, and light dismissal of the Amiga by the entire industry only makes matters worse.
 

  • Guest
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #28 on: January 24, 2005, 09:37:23 PM »
@MiAmigo.

Well put sir.  You are correct.  There are a lot of people here who've had their hopes of a new platform sullied time and time again for over 10 years now.  As such, there are more than a few here who're both emotional and a little unrealistic about the subject.  It would be easy to blame something, or someone for this, but in the end, its just about the ravages of time.

The death of Commodore didn't kill the Amiga.  Neither was it killed by Escom, Gateway, Amiga Inc, Bill Buck nor even the Amiga community itself.  We all however helped in our own ways, whether we knew it or not.  

As such after 10 years without a real parent company and no end-goal in sight, there seems to be little left except "hurt, betrayal, and pain" wherein the Amiga is concerned.  I know that sounds very stupid, childish, and petty, but it's pretty much the way most feel, and the base from which most react around here.

Unfortunately there are also those around here so high on their own feelings of self-importance that they actively go out and harm their own efforts by "cheerleading" for either "side" when there is simply no reason to.  Another group are those who literally enjoy pushing buttons simply to help them hide how pitiful their own lives are.  Most of those however have never owned an Amiga, nor do they understand in the slightest what it's all about.  They're just trying to hide their trite existence by assaulting others.  Egos after all are a part of humanity, no matter how stupid we might be.

I for one appreciate your question(s) because it's good to remind everyone once in a while that there are bigger issues in the world than this little soap opera.

Like Alex pointed out, until someone actually does something and presents us with a platform worthy of being called "the next generation Amiga", there's not really a whole lot to gripe and complain about.  When and if someone does release such a beast (and IMHO, it isn't either the AmigaOne *or* Pegasos), we'll either embrace it, or we won't.  

This site however will continue with the exact same mission that it has for almost 10 years now, and that is to provide the Amiga community with as much information as they can so they can get the help they need in making up their own minds what is, and isn't an "Amiga".

Wayne
 

Offline SHADES

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Join Date: Apr 2002
  • Posts: 355
  • Country: au
    • Show only replies by SHADES
Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #29 from previous page: January 24, 2005, 10:36:56 PM »
@ Wayne

You forgot to mention conspirisits!!

There are those of us who believe that all of the above you have mentioned was done to smash the community, un-hearten us and finaly burry the AMIGA and all possible roads for a future.

This goes back to ATARI/Commodore days. When the IBM PC and clones were saying "If a computer has any more than 16 colours, it must be a games machine"
Well we had colours, DMA sound, plug and play, multitasking and more.

It was a dangerouse machine then and still is now even though the PC world has not only colours but 3d Graphics and 8.1 Channel sound, multitasking etc...the philosophy behind the AMIGA stays. Perhaps some companies out there just don't want to see it survive and intend to break spirits that have held the AMIGA together even into divided sides right into 2005.

The community is not dead, just waiting as usual. Waiting for someone with enough guts, vision and money to do something. KMOS may just be that company and if so, there is still a chance for a very powerful "lifestyle" to once again bring the computer/technology scene forward to a new era.


I think that as long as we stay true to what we believe in, and to me that was the platform AMIGA and it's community I don't see why the common goal can't become a reality.
Seriously, if there is a demand, there will be substance.
Weather it be accelerator cards for classic hardware or new hardware, it's obvious that there are people who want AMIGA's technology and prefer the OS's feel and ability above others that are on offer.

:)
It's not the question, that is the problem, it is the problem, that is the question.