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Author Topic: We Doin' Any Good Here?  (Read 6477 times)

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Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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We Doin' Any Good Here?
« on: January 24, 2005, 01:28:08 AM »
Just wondering. There are a lot of ideas and opinions posted here day after day after day. Some are pretty good, some not so. People are so passionate about the Amiga, they sometimes forget common courtesy, and that each of us is a HUMAN BING on the other side of the computer screen. Now, having said all that, I just wonder, are we doing any thing good, or useful, or productive here, or are we all just venting? Anybody 'out there' in the industry taking our ideas, gripes and suggestions, and putting them to any use, or are we just a bunch of crabby 'oldsters' whining and complaining about the good old days, and secretly plotting each other's downfall, and the downfall of our various and sundry local governments? Which is it?
 

Offline Karlos

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2005, 01:31:37 AM »
Quote

MiAmigo wrote:
...and that each of us is a HUMAN BING on the other side of the computer screen.


:-D
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Offline Plaz

Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2005, 02:44:44 AM »
I recall a post once that may help answer your question. My memory isn't perfect so I'll just try to paraphrase the subject. It was by an amiga developer who said that he and others frequently read, followed and posted here and on other amiga sites. In the past they would contribute and participate in threads, but eventually some people would start finger pointing, flaming and harassing. So in the interest of peace and progress some of them "dropped out". They still read and pay attention, but are in more of a stealth mode I guess. Of course other devlopers do still participate and others may use aliases, but be assured they are paying attention to good theads and ideals.

Plaz
 

Offline Waccoon

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2005, 04:58:25 AM »
Despite the fact any platform is defined by its software, Amigans spend way too much time arguing about form factors and technical supiriority.

Meanwhile, software platforms like Linux, Java, and arguably even Windows (since MS doesn't make hardware), have taken over practically everything, leaving Apple as the only true hardware company capable of surviving in the PC desktop industry.  Even Apple, though, must have a damned good OS and seek profits from other markets to survive, like iPod.

If AmigaDE ever makes its debut and delivers its promise to run on anything, Amiga might make it back into the mainstream market.  Otherwise, the Amiga is doomed to be what it has been since Commodore went under -- a hobby plaform that will continue to dwindle.

Yeah, we've actually got AmigaOnes and OS4 is around the corner.  What will we run on it?  5-year-old apps running on 68K emulation.  It would be nice if those good ideas involved designing new tools and apps, rather then what the next Amiga motherboard will look like.

Very few ideas I've seen around here are applicable to today's computer market.  Unless someone's idea involves rounding up hundreds of millions of dollars to make a new hardware platform that must be redeveloped every year, the only thing that can really be done is to get AmigaOS running on stock hardware, rebuild a small dev community, and then move on to other hardware options as the software starts to materialize.

Never underestimate the power of a geek with too much free time.  But, you can't make software if a platform is too expensive and too hard to acquire.  :-)
 

Offline MiAmigoTopic starter

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2005, 10:19:45 AM »
Quote

Waccoon wrote:
Despite the fact any platform is defined by its software, Amigans spend way too much time arguing about form factors and technical supiriority.

Meanwhile, software platforms like Linux, Java, and arguably even Windows (since MS doesn't make hardware), have taken over practically everything, leaving Apple as the only true hardware company capable of surviving in the PC desktop industry.  Even Apple, though, must have a damned good OS and seek profits from other markets to survive, like iPod.

If AmigaDE ever makes its debut and delivers its promise to run on anything, Amiga might make it back into the mainstream market.  Otherwise, the Amiga is doomed to be what it has been since Commodore went under -- a hobby plaform that will continue to dwindle.

Yeah, we've actually got AmigaOnes and OS4 is around the corner.  What will we run on it?  5-year-old apps running on 68K emulation.  It would be nice if those good ideas involved designing new tools and apps, rather then what the next Amiga motherboard will look like.

Very few ideas I've seen around here are applicable to today's computer market.  Unless someone's idea involves rounding up hundreds of millions of dollars to make a new hardware platform that must be redeveloped every year, the only thing that can really be done is to get AmigaOS running on stock hardware, rebuild a small dev community, and then move on to other hardware options as the software starts to materialize.

Never underestimate the power of a geek with too much free time.  But, you can't make software if a platform is too expensive and too hard to acquire.  :-)


Hmm, some valid points here, but I think you strayed just a teensie weensie bit off topic.  :-) Ain't this another fight, on another thread, possibly instigated by yours truly?   :angel:
 

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2005, 12:23:47 PM »
MiAmigo.

Yours is a tough question to answer on a lot of different levels.  Most of the problems exist because over the years, some in this "community" (phrased lightly) have simply become too emotionally involved in what could be and have forgotten what's really important.

The Amiga, whether you're talking the hardware, the software, or the whole package, is nothing but a hobby.  Hobbies by nature are supposed to be fun.  It's marginally acceptable for someone to have pride in their hobby, but there are those here who go too far in defense of their chosen platform.  That applies to BOTH sides of the coin.  Trolling by negativity has become accepted methods, and in fact no one really understands (or is willing to accept) why such activities are harmful by nature to both others and the community..

I will grant you that it was a long, tormented road to get from the caring, compassionate community we used to be to the unhappy dissidents who seem to remain.  Most "real people" have long-since given up on the Amiga and moved on to other platforms.

Elaborating on "tormented roads", all of this started before most of the remaining miscreants even owned Amigas.  In the beginning, we were all unified.  We all had one single platform.   There were 10x more of us, and we were happy as bugs in warm  spaces to have them, play with them, expanded, and tinker with them.  The Amiga literally covered up our entire lives with games, fun, and friends.

I know I'm very badly over-simplifying, but.... :

In 1994, assaulted by both market pressures and marketing incompetence, Commodore died.  Some would argue that this was the death of the Amiga platform -- and on some levels they would be right.  

In 1997/1998, hope came to light after the cadaver dogs were run off, leaving Gateway as the official owner of the name brand.  More hope was given when they actually presented us with a future which -- at the time -- would have put us back in front of even the PC's of the world.  We all got emotionally invested with Gateway's vision of the future.  When the powers that be got tired of dumping money into the idea, they decided to discard the Amiga.  This marks pretty much the second time that the Amiga community members felt betrayed and crushed.  (Personally speaking, I mark the Gateway era as the last good time of hope for the Amiga).

Skip to 2000.

At the 2000 Saint Louis show (I believe it was StL.  Hell, it was 5 years ago), Bill McEwen (a former Gateway consultant) appears before the remaining faithful and announces that they have "bought the rights" to the Amiga and they have lots of ideas (what have become known as "fleecyisms") about the future of the Amiga, which do not in  any way involve the desktop.  In other words (theirs), "AmigaOS is dead", but they would be happy to sell us an underpowered, overpriced PC to develop DE applications on. During an impromtu meeting with the UGN, McEwen -- in response to a question from a UGN representative -- confirms that they're going to build Amiga Inc with the intention of "getting bought out".  Strike two for the remaining Amiga faithful who left that show (or attended virtually through the UGN) pretty much scratching their heads and confused.  

During the period of 2001 through 2002 comes the big tech market crash, followed by many little scandals and rumors involving Amiga Inc.  Rumors of bankruptcy.  Rumors of evictions, rumors of unpaid employees.  Infamous $50 coupons/t-shirts/whateverthehell that was were paid for by the community, and McEwen even hints that we've paid his rent for the month at the Sacramento show.

The Amiga community begins to literally hate "BillandFleecyCo" and even the name "Fleecy" begins to take on a more appropriate feeling because there's no hint of activity within Amiga Inc.  Not by way of computer, Operating system, or even the damnable t-shirts.  Continual neglect and even intentional disregard towards the community by Amiga Inc instills even more hatred and mistrust in the hearts of the remaining Amiga faithful.  The online community begins to really dig in and rebel against McEwen and company as a direct result of Amiga Inc's actions during this time.

AmigaOS 4.0 and the AmigaOne are announced, but they have nothing to do with Amiga Inc other than the name.  "DE is our only future concern" is spoken by McEwen.  Sigh...

2002/2003 -- Enter the next self-proclaimed savior -- Bill Buck.

I can't say much about Bill Buck because my own history is smudged by my own stupid decision to follow the false savior.  Some (usually trolls themselves) will now invariably take this opportunity to attack me yet again for my mistakes in the past. I've already apologized enough for the part I've played there, so to those people... Sod off.

Suffice to say that Genesi appears on the scene and we get to witness entertaining lawsuits against Amiga Inc (towards whom a LOT of us were angry at the time).. This marks the first real demonstrable time when we're all turned into trolls which could be best described as "armchair lawyers", trying the case in public on forums.  

We're also given by Genesi, the promise of a new and exciting Amiga-esque future firmly as a desktop machine.  No waffling, no promises of a "fleecy future", just the desktop that a lot of us had wanted.  Hell, while legally dubious, they even had a team which wasn't instantly impeachable by the scandals of the past (like Amiga Inc was at the time).

The Amiga "community" divides at the base level between those who fervently supported Amiga Inc, those who followed Genesi, and even those who tried desperately to accept both as legitimate paths to the Amiga future.  For the first time, the Amiga community was fully at war with itself.  Most of our reasonable members have washed their hands of it and moved to the PC or even Macintosh.

2004 -- More legal wishwashyness goes on with Amiga Inc and KMOS.  Most of us don't even care any more.  Those you hear {bleep}ing about it are those who've chosen "sides" and fervently defend their side, thinking it's perfectly fine to do so by trashing the "other side".  The online community splits into very strict lines with sites spread between;

"Those who believe in the true Amiga future"
"Those who believe that licensing a trademark doesn't mean you're the only possibility".
"Those who're willing to accept all paths, as long as SOMETHING -- hell, ANYTHING happens."

In short, the Amiga "community" as it once was, is dead.

2005 -- Amiga Inc / KMOS is deathly silent (save for t-shirts), Genesi is reportedly bankrupt, MorphOS has been abandoned by Genesi, the MorphOS team is rebelling for non-payment, and the Amiga community is still fervently feeding upon itself.  Certain members of both "sides" are actively practicing "Guerilla marketing" by trashing each other publicly, both directly and indirectly.

In the end, I would bet that less than 5% of you experienced what the real Amiga community was like in the beginning.  I doubt that any of you could really ever understand why I would have gone out of the way to start this site.  It used to be that the Amiga community was about friendship, and it didn't matter whether you were in Los Angeles California, or St. Petersburg Russia.  

In the beginning, we all had one goal, one love, one thing in common.  The Amiga.  This site remains SIMPLY for the hope that we can get there again, somehow.  
 

Offline bloodline

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2005, 12:30:00 PM »
Hey Wayne!!! You forgot AROS!! :-P

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2005, 12:41:52 PM »
editing my own reply : Emotionally involved after writing that hour long post.  Inadvertant trolling by negativity.
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2005, 12:46:15 PM »
Not sure, really. In the beginning, just months after C= turned turtle, the bigwigs would stress on every occasion that the major strength of the Amiga was its community. I even vaguely recall that a user platform was created so that the ew company would have a single body to deal with. But that effort soon tore itself apart because everyone had ideas of their own. And the situation became explosive when MorphOS and the Pegasos appeared on-scene. Most people with good ideas left eons ago, and all that is left is a bunch of die-hards who cling to the platform for a number of reasons, none of which will make someone a lot of money.

To be honest, if I were in the industry, I would try to make sure I didn't upset anyone: politely accept the ideas, and respond that they are 'under consideration'. You really cannot do more than that. After all, it is you who is spending all the money to create the program, not the person who sent the idea. And to be very honest, I doubt there will be many good ideas left in the community. I have seen precious few, at least on these boards. Most good ideas are good programming habits nowadays. And other good ideas are likely to have been implemented already. Software-wise the new Amigas are not a testing ground for the cutting edge in technology (I wouldn't even know what the cutting edge in software development *is*) so you can quite easily rely on what has been done already. It's cheaper too.

In other words, I believe you hit the nail right on the head when you wrote: I believe we are just a bunch of crabby 'oldsters' whining and complaining about the good old days, and secretly plotting each other's downfall, and the downfall of our various and sundry local governments. And we all know it :crazy:.
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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2005, 12:50:18 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:
In other words, I believe you hit the nail right on the head when you wrote: I believe we are just a bunch of crabby 'oldsters' whining and complaining about the good old days, and secretly plotting each other's downfall, and the downfall of our various and sundry local governments. And we all know it :crazy:.
I meant to also add that I agree with this..

edited to rephrase :
I also agree that while the Amiga community was dying on it's own due to neglect, the virulent "The Art of War" form of promotion injected by Bill Buck (and supported by others) into the fray is exactly what turned it from a morose death-watch into an unneccessary and stupid war.

Wayne
 

Offline Cymric

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2005, 01:00:09 PM »
Quote
bloodline wrote:
Hey Wayne!!! You forgot AROS!! :-P

You know, the more I see of Bloodline, the more I believe he suffers from a mild and benign form of Tourette syndrome. Everytime someone mentions something, Bloodline goes 'AROS!'. There was the open sourcing of Ambient a few days ago: Bloodline goes 'AROS port!' Someone asks after which system to buy: Bloodline is the first to mention, you've guessed it: 'AROS!'.

I can picture it now: Bloodline snuggles with his GF (you do have one, don't you?) and she asks him if there is another in his life. Bloodline automatically goes 'AROS!'---and is then politely (:-P) requested to sleep on the couch for the next few days. After Bloodline's time in the moral realm has come to an end, the Great Sock calls upon him and asks him if Bloodline ever worshipped a different god. Bloodline: 'AROS!'. Upon which the Sock casts him into the deepest levels of Sock Hell, filled with sweaty, unwashed sport socks, left to brew and fester and smell...
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Offline Chunder

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2005, 01:36:29 PM »
Interesting hypothesis; I wonder if he pronounces it in the same way as Father Jack? :-)
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Offline bloodline

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2005, 02:08:01 PM »
Quote
I can picture it now: Bloodline snuggles with his GF (you do have one, don't you?) and she asks him if there is another in his life. Bloodline automatically goes 'AROS!'---and is then politely () requested to sleep on the couch for the next few days.


Um... My (long suffering) girlfriend (of the non woolen type) has threatened on many occations to "thow that bloody computer of of the F**king window".

Quote
After Bloodline's time in the moral realm has come to an end, the Great Sock calls upon him and asks him if Bloodline ever worshipped a different god. Bloodline: 'AROS!'. Upon which the Sock casts him into the deepest levels of Sock Hell, filled with sweaty, unwashed sport socks, left to brew and fester and smell...


Ahhh, the good old sock... never fails to satisfy :hug:

Offline Cymric

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2005, 02:08:31 PM »
I'm probably going to ruin the joke by asking this, but who is Father Jack?  :-?
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Offline bloodline

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Re: We Doin' Any Good Here?
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2005, 02:14:01 PM »
Quote

Cymric wrote:
I'm probably going to ruin the joke by asking this, but who is Father Jack?  :-?


Father Ted

Father Jack